Root and branch

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,04:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,17:54)

Gene and I were discussing Paul's use of the word “root” in 1 Timothy 6:10.

In that verse, does the word “root” refer to “what came first”? YES or NO?

Mike,

The word “first” does not sound correct for a synonym of “root”. A synonym referred to elsewhere in Scripture is “foundation”. The sin, greed, is the foundation of every kind of, “pas”, evil.

And is the “foundation” the FIRST thing to be built, Kerwin?

Why must I always jump through hoops with you?

The love of money is the ROOT of all kinds of evil.

According to Paul's statement, does “the love of money” come BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”? YES or NO?

March 19, 2013 at 4:02 am#338699

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,00:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 16 2013,02:47)

Jesus is a son of Judah.
See the geneology in Luke:
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

And the geneology in Matthew:

1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,a 4and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, 5and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, 6and Jesse the father of David the king.

And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, 7and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asaph,b 8and Asaph the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, 9and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 10and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos,c and Amos the father of Josiah, 11and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

12And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel,d and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, 14and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, 15and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, 16and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Also, did you realize what scripture says about 'Judah?' Judah is a lion's cub. So, the Root of Jesse is also the Lion of the 'lion's cub' (Judah). I don't think that Jesus as the Lion of Judah speaks to Him being from Judah but instead, Judah being from Him as His Creator-the Father through the Son, imo.

Genesis 49:Judah is a lion’s cub; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He stooped down; he crouched as a lion and as a lioness; who dares rouse him?

LU,

Thank you for correcting me.

Hi Kerwin,
No problem, glad to help! With your new understanding, perhaps you need to revisit the 'Root and Shoot/offspring' passages.

God bless!

March 19, 2013 at 4:05 am#338700

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,00:46)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 16 2013,02:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,04:41)

To all,

I find Isaiah 11:1-2 confusing because of its use of pronouns but I cannot see how it calls the Anointed the roots in any way.

Isaiah 11:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

11 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Kerwin,
The 'Branch/Shoot' is the anointed Messiah, not the 'Root.'

LU,

I am not opposed to that interpretation.

Ok Kerwin, great.

So, Jesus is the 'Shoot' as the offspring of the line of David. How do you see Jesus as the 'Root' of the stump of Jesse that later stands as a banner for His people in Isaiah 11:1 and 11:10?

March 19, 2013 at 12:23 pm#338744

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,08:23)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,04:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2013,17:54)

Gene and I were discussing Paul's use of the word “root” in 1 Timothy 6:10.

In that verse, does the word “root” refer to “what came first”? YES or NO?

Mike,

And is the “foundation” the FIRST thing to be built, Kerwin?

Why must I always jump through hoops with you?

The love of money is the ROOT of all kinds of evil.

According to Paul's statement, does “the love of money” come BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”? YES or NO?

Mike,

I was not a builder of the ancient ages. I do know now that buildings can be placed on foundations younger than they are.

Neither root or foundation were stated to be synonyms of first. If you desire to conclude they are then find a definition or synonym to make your case.

Psalm 118:22
King James Version (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

and

Isaiah 28:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

This next one gets at the point you hope to make.

Ephesians 2:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

So the cornerstone is set, the foundation is laid, and the city is being built.

March 19, 2013 at 12:38 pm#338745

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,15:35)

To all,

Isaiah 11:10 (King James Version)

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

KJV states “a root” not “the root” in Isaiah 28:16

LU and all,

Jesus is called a root of Jesse.
Root is synonymous with foundation.
Jesus is also called the foundation, the corner stone, Isaiah 28:16.

I also find this passage relevant

2 Samuel 20:1
King James Version (KJV)

20 And there happened to be there a man of Belial, whose name was Sheba, the son of Bichri, a Benjamite: and he blew a trumpet, and said, We have no part in David, neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to his tents, O Israel.

March 19, 2013 at 12:39 pm#338746

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2013,10:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,00:46)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 16 2013,02:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,04:41)

To all,

I find Isaiah 11:1-2 confusing because of its use of pronouns but I cannot see how it calls the Anointed the roots in any way.

Isaiah 11:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

Kerwin,
The 'Branch/Shoot' is the anointed Messiah, not the 'Root.'

LU,

I am not opposed to that interpretation.

Ok Kerwin, great.

So, Jesus is the 'Shoot' as the offspring of the line of David. How do you see Jesus as the 'Root' of the stump of Jesse that later stands as a banner for His people in Isaiah 11:1 and 11:10?

LU,

see my previous post.

March 19, 2013 at 8:36 pm#338773

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,07:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,15:35)

To all,

Isaiah 11:10 (King James Version)

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

KJV states “a root” not “the root” in Isaiah 28:16

LU and all,

Jesus is called a root of Jesse.
Root is synonymous with foundation.
Jesus is also called the foundation, the corner stone, Isaiah 28:16.

I also find this passage relevant

2 Samuel 20:1
King James Version (KJV)

Hi Kerwin,
Thanks for your comments. From what I can tell and from reading the commentary, the corner stone in Isa 28:16 is speaking about the 'Shoot,' not the 'Root.' It is a Messianic Prophecy. The 'Shoot' is the cornerstone of the church.

Also, what specifically regarding 2 Samuel 20:1 do you find relevant to the discussion?

March 19, 2013 at 9:30 pm#338775

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2013,02:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,07:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,15:35)

To all,

Isaiah 11:10 (King James Version)

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

KJV states “a root” not “the root” in Isaiah 28:16

LU and all,

Jesus is called a root of Jesse.
Root is synonymous with foundation.
Jesus is also called the foundation, the corner stone, Isaiah 28:16.

I also find this passage relevant

2 Samuel 20:1
King James Version (KJV)

Also, what specifically regarding 2 Samuel 20:1 do you find relevant to the discussion?

LU,

Foundation is a synonym for root and so I looked up foundation.

I also looked up corner stone because the corner stone is the chief stone of the foundation.

I don't believe shoot is a synonym of either cornerstone or foundation.

The 10 tribes were rejecting the rule of the royal line in 2 Samuel 2:1 and referred to accepting it as taking part with the son of David and the son of Jesse.

March 20, 2013 at 2:46 am#338823

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,06:23)

Neither root or foundation were stated to be synonyms of first. If you desire to conclude they are then find a definition or synonym to make your case.

From Dictionary.com:

root

Definition: base, core

Synonyms: basis, cause, foundation, origin, seed, starting point

Are those close enough to stop the hoop jumping, Kerwin? Because I can link “basis” to “the principle on which something depends or from which something has issued”. And then I can link “principle” to “a source or fundamental cause”. And I can go on and on and on with all the other synonyms listed above – if you really need me to.

Now, here is my question again:

The love of money is the ROOT of all kinds of evil.

According to Paul's statement, does “the love of money” come BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”? YES or NO?

March 20, 2013 at 12:30 pm#338856

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2013,08:46)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,06:23)

Neither root or foundation were stated to be synonyms of first. If you desire to conclude they are then find a definition or synonym to make your case.

From Dictionary.com:

root

Definition: base, core

Synonyms: basis, cause, foundation, origin, seed, starting point

Now, here is my question again:

The love of money is the ROOT of all kinds of evil.

According to Paul's statement, does “the love of money” come BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”? YES or NO?

Mike,

I know you are trying to force the interpretation but lets be patient and look at the evidence.

Greed is the base of all kinds of evil.
Greed is the core of all all kinds of evil.
Greed is the beginnings of all kinds of evil.

Is Jesus the base of Jesse?
Is Jesus the core of Jesse?
Is Jesus the beginnings of Jesse?

God laid Jesus as the cornerstone, the prophets and apostles as the foundation, and the believers as the building.

When did he lay Jesus as the corner stone?

March 20, 2013 at 12:32 pm#338857

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,03:30)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2013,02:36)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,07:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2013,15:35)

To all,

Isaiah 11:10 (King James Version)

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

KJV states “a root” not “the root” in Isaiah 28:16

LU and all,

Jesus is called a root of Jesse.
Root is synonymous with foundation.
Jesus is also called the foundation, the corner stone, Isaiah 28:16.

I also find this passage relevant

2 Samuel 20:1
King James Version (KJV)

Also, what specifically regarding 2 Samuel 20:1 do you find relevant to the discussion?

LU,

Foundation is a synonym for root and so I looked up foundation.

I also looked up corner stone because the corner stone is the chief stone of the foundation.

I don't believe shoot is a synonym of either cornerstone or foundation.

The 10 tribes were rejecting the rule of the royal line in 2 Samuel 2:1 and referred to accepting it as taking part with the son of David and the son of Jesse.

LU,

I did find where root can be synonymous with shoot.

March 21, 2013 at 4:17 am#338909

Participant

Hi Kerwin,
I found that some words for 'root' can also be translated as 'shoot' but not in Isa 11. The 'roots' are the support of the stump, not a branch coming from the stump. Likewise,the 'branch' coming from the stump is not the 'roots' of the stump. Those are two different plant parts. One as the foundation (the roots) and one as the offspring (the branch). Jesus said that He was BOTH the Root and Offspring of David. This revelation was among the very last words that Jesus, Himself, spoke in the last book of the Bible.

March 21, 2013 at 11:17 am#338935

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2013,10:17)

LU,

The statement that I was specifically addressing is:

Quote

The 'Shoot' is the cornerstone of the church.

I do not see a shoot as being the chief stone of the foundation of God's people.

A shoot out of a stump seems more about life from death than about a foundation.

Jesse's line was previously chopped down and then a sapling grew out of it's stump. The stump is the foundation. Jesus is the offspring of Jesse's line, and the hope of the coming King.

March 21, 2013 at 5:01 pm#338950

Participant

Kerwin,
The stump still has its roots even when chopped down. The Roots are ultimately the foundation of the whole tree. From the Roots (Godhead), through the stump (Jesse and his descendants), came the Branch (Messiah). The Branch is fruitful and through the Branch come the stems. The stems would be the followers of the Branch-those who cling to the Messiah. In that manner, the Branch (Cornerstone) is a type of foundation for the stems as the life for the stems comes directly from the life in the Branch. Ultimately the Roots are still the foundation of the whole tree and original source of life.

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

You may think that one person is both the Root and the Shoot is not possible because it is confusing, but nevertheless, Jesus is both, as He Himself testifies as one of the last revelations He spoke regarding Himself:

Rev 22
12“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

March 22, 2013 at 1:05 am#338989

Participant

LU,

Jesus is the offspring of Jesse, the shoot that comes out of the stump of Jesse. The stump that is rooted in Yawheh.

Jesus is the root of Jesse, the corner stone that is laid in Zion.

The foundation stones of the prophets were laid first. Jesus, the cornerstone was laid next, the foundation stones of the apostles third, and the rest of the people thereafter.

March 22, 2013 at 1:24 am#338995

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,06:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2013,08:46)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,06:23)

Neither root or foundation were stated to be synonyms of first. If you desire to conclude they are then find a definition or synonym to make your case.

From Dictionary.com:

root

Definition: base, core

Synonyms: basis, cause, foundation, origin, seed, starting point

Now, here is my question again:

The love of money is the ROOT of all kinds of evil.

According to Paul's statement, does “the love of money” come BEFORE the “all kinds of evil”? YES or NO?

Mike,

I know you are trying to force the interpretation but lets be patient and look at the evidence.

Greed is the base of all kinds of evil.
Greed is the core of all all kinds of evil.
Greed is the beginnings of all kinds of evil.

Is Jesus the base of Jesse?
Is Jesus the core of Jesse?
Is Jesus the beginnings of Jesse?

God laid Jesus as the cornerstone, the prophets and apostles as the foundation, and the believers as the building.

When did he lay Jesus as the corner stone?

Trying to force the interpretation? Have you lost your mind, Kerwin?

Any idiot knows that the “root of” something, in metaphoric speech, is the thing FROM WHICH that something comes. It is YOU who is pretending like you're too dumb to understand this simple thing that even a five year old kid can understand.

In Paul's statement, does the love of money come BEFORE the all kinds of evil? YES or NO?

And YES to all your Jesus questions. They are all just different ways of saying that Jesus came BEFORE David as the ROOT OF David.

And btw, from Dictionary.com:

Main Entry: cornerstone

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: vital element

Synonyms: anchor, base, essential, foundation, key element, keystone, linchpin, main ingredient, mainspring, mainstay, pillar

Can you see that cornerstone and foundation are synonyms?

Kerwin, are you ready to stop playing games, and just admit the OBVIOUS that “the root OF” something comes BEFORE that something?

March 22, 2013 at 1:31 am#338998

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2013,22:17)

The 'roots' are the support of the stump, not a branch coming from the stump. Likewise,the 'branch' coming from the stump is not the 'roots' of the stump. Those are two different plant parts. One as the foundation (the roots) and one as the offspring (the branch). Jesus said that He was BOTH the Root and Offspring of David.

Amen. Kerwin knows full well what “offspring of David” means. He knows it means that Jesus came AFTER David.

So what does Jesus mean by declaring that he is BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David?

Hmmm……………. Offsprings come AFTER. How about ROOTS? Do they come before, or after?

Kerwin is just playing dumb, Kathi. I'm sure you by now realize this.

March 22, 2013 at 3:30 am#339026

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2013,20:05)

LU,

Jesus is the offspring of Jesse, the shoot that comes out of the stump of Jesse. The stump that is rooted in Yawheh.

Jesus is the root of Jesse, the corner stone that is laid in Zion.

The foundation stones of the prophets were laid first. Jesus, the cornerstone was laid next, the foundation stones of the apostles third, and the rest of the people thereafter.

Hi Kerwin,
Read the passage:

Isaiah 11:1
There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.

In regards to the root and shoot of Jesse, the Branch is from his (the stump of Jesse) Roots.

It is this verse that we get the messianic prophecy of Jesus as the Shoot/Branch of Jesse. In that verse, the Root of Jesse is not the same part of the plant as the Shoot of Jesse.

March 22, 2013 at 3:50 am#339032

Participant

Mike,

The prophets came before Jesus. The apostles came afterwards.

You are looking at time and not function. Peter addresses function and not time.

1 Peter 2:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

and

Acts 4:10-11
King James Version (KJV)

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Notice that Scripture declares, the cornerstone was laid after the time of the Prophets.

March 22, 2013 at 4:04 am#339035