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Hi david,
I can find no commandment that men should never join the armed forces
but you would add this one?Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,06:56) Quote Hi david,
Christ was apolitical.
But you would give political advice to people of the world?Look a little closer nick. I'm doing exactly the opposite. My “political advice” as you put it is to suggest that Christians should be for God's government and not fighting sides in man's wars. Nick, I find that you misrepresent what I say more than everyone else combined on here. Why is that?
Greetings David….Gods Government is not here yet although
it is on its way people living the christian life are still duty bound to obey their worldly leaders….With exception for
such things that are against Gods laws…..This is something that I am being confused by…..
Thou shalt not Murder…Where does that leave killing….as in war.. is that murder…
Quote Quote Hi David, The lion isn't laying down with lamb, is it? There is one prediction of the coming reign of the Messiah.
Hi Mandy. You must have a list. I imagine it's a short list. Could you please provide it for me. I'm curious to know which scriptures (if any) you now consider messianic.
david
Do you know what Bible “principles” are Nick? They are the basic truths that commandments are based upon. Jesus taught mostly principles, not commands.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2008,07:06) Hi david,
I can find no commandment that men should never join the armed forces
but you would add this one?
The man who had the greatest faith that Jesus had seen (to date) was a centurion.Quote The man who had the greatest faith that Jesus had seen (to date) was a centurion. He was a centurion when he accepted the Christian message.
And don't forget sergius paulus. We know nothing of them after that accpeting Christianity. The Scriptures do not tell us what Cornelius and others did after their conversion. No doubt Sergius Paulus, who was an intelligent man and “astounded at the teaching of Jehovah,” would soon scrutinize his secular position in the light of his newfound faith and make a proper decision. Cornelius would have done likewise. (Acts 10:1, 2, 44-48; 13:7, 12) There is no record that the disciples told them what action they must take. They could see that from their own study of God’s Word.—Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:3.Again, it is simply a fact of history that no …. T8, I don't think you made it past my 3d quote. And I had like 27 quotes.?
Here it is:
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)Those last few words T8.
Quote Hi david,
I wondered when you would paste in your favourite JW teachings.Yes Nick, and there's only 45 scriptures that I'm relying on to come to that conclusion. Your response is the usual one: Say I'm a JW, as though that's some sort of proof of something.
nick, let me simplify this for you. A bunch of people on here who think Ron is great say he is a prophet. I'm just trying to figure out what these people believe. They all love the sabbath. And theo is a marine. I just want to know what Ron's position is on killing others in the name of your country.
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,12:12) He was a centurion when he accepted the Christian message.
He was a centurion at the time Jesus said those words.If he was a Christian or received the message, then that shows that he was a centurion and a believer at the same time which would be contrary to your argument.
Anyway, I personally think it is wrong to kill, but God did give victory to Israel in battles. This is the same GOd that we serve today, so the truth lies between not killing and God giving armies victory.
Perhaps God works out his plan even among the wranglings of men.
Even at the end Jesus comes back with an army to shed blood.
All I am saying David is that you need to recognise what God does.
It's not up to us to make rules and say God never allows his children to go to war. If that were the case, then King David wasn't God's child.
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,12:15) Quote Hi david,
I wondered when you would paste in your favourite JW teachings.Yes Nick, and there's only 45 scriptures that I'm relying on to come to that conclusion. Your response is the usual one: Say I'm a JW, as though that's some sort of proof of something.
nick, let me simplify this for you. A bunch of people on here who think Ron is great say he is a prophet. I'm just trying to figure out what these people believe. They all love the sabbath. And theo is a marine. I just want to know what Ron's position is on killing others in the name of your country.
Hi david,
You can make a patchwork quilt of 1000 misinterpreted scriptures and it would still not make one truth.Quote He was a centurion at the time Jesus said those words. If he was a Christian or received the message, then that shows that he was a centurion and a believer at the same time which would be contrary to your argument.
My arguement T8, is simply this fact of history:
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)
It is my experience that one becomes a believer before being baptized.
“synagogue became a believer in the Lord, and so did all his household. And many of the Corinthians that heard began to believe and be baptized.”
“Simon himself also became a believer, and, after being baptized”
Baptism involves a dedication. One first believes, and then acts on what they believe–perhaps including removing the old personality and the traits of the flesh.
Quote You can make a patchwork quilt of 1000 misinterpreted scriptures and it would still not make one truth. Either the earliest Christians were wrong, or some people today are wrong. I would choose to go with the people that actually lived right after the time of Jesus than those who can only say I am misinterpreting scriptures, and apparently, in the way they did.
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2008,13:27) Quote He was a centurion at the time Jesus said those words. If he was a Christian or received the message, then that shows that he was a centurion and a believer at the same time which would be contrary to your argument.
My arguement T8, is simply this fact of history:
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)
It is my experience that one becomes a believer before being baptized.
“synagogue became a believer in the Lord, and so did all his household. And many of the Corinthians that heard began to believe and be baptized.”
“Simon himself also became a believer, and, after being baptized”
Baptism involves a dedication. One first believes, and then acts on what they believe–perhaps including removing the old personality and the traits of the flesh.
Hi david.Not related to the overall discussion but I will post what I have here in the appropriate discussion if you wish to reply.
I don't think (as you say) that any Christian would have fought for the Roman Empire.
But the Israelites fought against their enemies.
It boils down to what you believe.
Does God give victory to armies like he did with Israel?
Did God give the allies the victory in WWII?I wouldn't be so quick to judge because you may be judging God.
Remember that if you are a believer and your country is on an evil spree for power, then in good conscience you shouldn't join in that mission. But if evil came to destroy your country and your country asked you to defend your country then is that evil?
Should we judge those who gave their lives up for their country, so people like you and me could live in safety and the freedom to worship God?
If there was no resistance to Hitler then Europe would be part way into the Third Reich.
As a former officer in my nation's military I personally never saw conflict between God and my service therein. I think in war our actions are judged by the almighty in relation to the circumstances thereof and not against an absolute standard. Also perhaps there may be something to an eastern concept of group karma, where in such matters (war) there is a collective and not just individual consequences of actions.
As a side note I find the constant references to Hitler in these prophecies as being far to eurocentric in our thinking. Weinland and others often refer to Hitler as being Satan's catspaw, and perhaps he was but let us not forget his contemporaries such as Mao and Stalin. If Hitler was responsible for 5-6 million jewish deaths, Stalin before the beginning of the Soviet Union's involvement in the war is credited with upwards of 30 million deaths from his collectivizations, purges, and enforced famines. Mao in China from 1949-1975 is credited with similar numbers from collectivization and the cultural revolution. Are these folks any less evil then Hitler? Why are they never mentioned? Did Satan control them all and have two of them fight so as to make sure they lost? My point is, we should be vary wary when insinuating divine or infernal causation in temporal matters. All of these various armegeddon scenarios seem centered on Europe and Isreal and the rest of the world is an afterthought. If God does have a chosen people perhaps it makes sense, but if he loves us all equally then it doesn't. Personally I don't put much credence into the favorite son bias, I would think that God would care as much for an African, American or Asian as an Isreali. This whole business of Jew and Gentile I find absurd, we are all people and all created by the same divine power, I sincerely doubt some of us are more loved by God then others by virtue of our national lineage.
Greetings David…..I must say you have certainly given me some thing to think about…..
Allow me to disect your desatation so as to get a better understanding
Lets start with…God did not bless the efforts of the Israelites/Jews' when they
engaged in an unrighteous war effort…am I to understand that they lost those wars…In addition I concur with your assertion dealing with conscription and the christians
with respect to the Roman Army….At that time the Roman Army represented the
antisthesis of christian principle..Joining the Roman army was to persecute your own…At the onset of WW2 would you think ,as a christian,you would have been righteous
in declining conscription….(under penalty of man made law).
The US has lost The Korean War,The Vietnam War and I would think we are not going to prevail in the middle east…..Why is that
God hates War…He knows human nature….and if he sees fit sometimes he lets the unrighteous prevail….as means of correction…eg.The USs' impending colapse..
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 07 2008,23:59) As a former officer in my nation's military I personally never saw conflict between God and my service therein. I think in war our actions are judged by the almighty in relation to the circumstances thereof and not against an absolute standard. Also perhaps there may be something to an eastern concept of group karma, where in such matters (war) there is a collective and not just individual consequences of actions. As a side note I find the constant references to Hitler in these prophecies as being far to eurocentric in our thinking. Weinland and others often refer to Hitler as being Satan's catspaw, and perhaps he was but let us not forget his contemporaries such as Mao and Stalin. If Hitler was responsible for 5-6 million jewish deaths, Stalin before the beginning of the Soviet Union's involvement in the war is credited with upwards of 30 million deaths from his collectivizations, purges, and enforced famines. Mao in China from 1949-1975 is credited with similar numbers from collectivization and the cultural revolution. Are these folks any less evil then Hitler? Why are they never mentioned? Did Satan control them all and have two of them fight so as to make sure they lost? My point is, we should be vary wary when insinuating divine or infernal causation in temporal matters. All of these various armegeddon scenarios seem centered on Europe and Isreal and the rest of the world is an afterthought. If God does have a chosen people perhaps it makes sense, but if he loves us all equally then it doesn't. Personally I don't put much credence into the favorite son bias, I would think that God would care as much for an African, American or Asian as an Isreali. This whole business of Jew and Gentile I find absurd, we are all people and all created by the same divine power, I sincerely doubt some of us are more loved by God then others by virtue of our national lineage.
I Salute Sir !!…..And your observation is accurate !!Greetings Cato…..I would think your a are correct with respect to your assertion,that
Hitler,Stalin and Mao were all equally brutal products of the darker side of humanity…
To claim satanic influence of one with the exclusion of the others would be folly….These three exemplfy the epidimy of Mans in humanity towards his fellow man….
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