Revelation 1:8

[Togel]

Hi Nick,

Excuse me, but are you a Christian? Or a Moslem? Or Jehovah witness? Or?

I believe you are completely ignoring Bible verses that say that Jesus exists BEFORE he was born.

This could be because you are ignorant, since you are a Moslem, or simply because you are not aware of these verses, or you just choose to ignore them.

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

No you are not listening to the Spirit that spoke through the man Jesus.

[Togel]

John 8:56-58

56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus exists before Abraham.

John 17:5  “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus had glory with Father before the world was.

Hebrew 1:8-11

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;

God the Father said that the Son, the Lord, laid the foundation of the earth and created heavens.

So, how can Jesus not exist before He was born? Not possible.

You are either a non-believer (a Moslem) or an intentional non-believer (ignoring Bible verses), who would not listen to the Spirit talking to you.

 

[kerwin]

Togel,

Do you know the words ” the First and the Last” are correctly interpreted at the only one in a series. Alpha and Omega mean much the same as they are the first and last last of the Greek alphabet. The same is true of beginning and end. In short it means the one and only.

God uses the words “first and last” in the OT to reveal he is the one and only God.

Isaiah 41:4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4
Who hath wrought and done it,
calling the generations from the beginning?
I the Lord, the first,
and with the last; I am he.

In scanning the use and context of the words “beginning and end” in Scripture I find it is about duration but God has neither a beginning or end. In Revelations 21:6 the words “it is done” precede that title. Revelations 22:13 may have the same context.

“Alpha and Omega” are not used elsewhere in Scripture so I cannot find how they are specifically used.

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

No Jesus was not yet conceived.

The anointing Spirit was from everlasting.

The Word was in the beginning with God and was God.

 

[Togel]

All right, so Jesus the man was not yet conceived.

However, Hebrew 1:8-11 clearly says that God the Father says that the Son created heavens and earth.

So, who is this Son? I have no alternative but to believe that this is the Son of God, which is the clear intention of the Hebrew book. Therefore, because the Son of God created the heavens and earth, He must have existed before them.

And who is this Son of God? We all know that Jesus Christ is the recognized Son of God by all parties in the Gospel.

So, this concludes that Jesus Christ, before He was conceived, already existed with the Father.

Or, how do you perceive these verses? Or are you rejecting the Book of Hebrew altogether?

[GeneBalthrop]

TOGEL……Then where God says, “he “alone” and “by himself” created the world and all that is in it”, in ISSIAH, IS A LIE right? AND WHERE JESUS said in prayer “you are the “only” true God”, was he lying also to us? There is not a single scripture that says JESUS himself was a God of anykind. but plenty as wellas his own words show, he was not a GOD. We are told, that there is a mediator between GOD and man, the “MAN” Jesus Christ. JESUS himself said he was a son of man over and over, and even said, “when the son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth”.

MOSES told Isreal that GOD would raise up from their brethern, a prophet, “like him”, and they should listen to him. SO what was Moses, was he not a ordinary man who had the anointing spirit of God on him, that is exactly what Jesus was, the only difference was that God “father” the human child Jesus himself, in the womb of MARY his mother. BUT that did not make him any different then we are, he was justthe “only “human being” tha twas begotten of GOD himself,

Jesus never preexisted his berth on this earth, allwho preach he preexist are false preachers, notso much as a single scripture says he “preexisted” his berth on this earth, but what did preexist was the prophesies cocerning him, and also the Glory he would recieve, which he ask for later, JESUS knew who he was and what was expected of him before it ever happened as well as the prophesied glory afforded him.

HERE ARE TWO OF THE BIGGEST “LIES” EVER TOLD IN CHRISTIANITY.

1… JESUS IS A GOD

2….JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH.

NEARLY ALL CHRISTENDOM IS DECIEVED BY THESE TWO LIES.

I AM NOT A MOSLEM, NOR OF ANY RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS EITHER, JUST DO MY BEST TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR WHAT IT SAYS, NOT WHAT OTHERS SAY IT SAYS.

peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

[Togel]

Gene… so you clearly call the writer of Hebrew a false teacher. And so, I think by this, you are clearly not a Christian. So, if you are not a Christian, why should I continue this discussion?

All right, maybe there can be some uses in the future of this discussion.

Well, since in several places it was written in the Scripture that God created the world and heavens through the Son, when God says that He created alone and by himself, that means it was Jesus speaking. So, Jesus is God. Or, that is the mystery of the Trinity. Three but one, and God almost always calls Himself I.

Also, you should be aware of the fact that the Scripture says that God is invisible, and that nobody ever saw God, but Genesis 18 tells that God visited Abraham in the form of a man:

Genesis 18:

1  Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

etc, you should read it yourself.

So, is the Genesis writer lying? Nobody ever saw God, but Abraham did, and so did Moses. So, whom were they seeing? God in man form? Who is that? If God could become a man in Abraham’s time, He can also become a man in Jesus time.

I am sorry, Sir, but you are simply intentionally ignoring what many Bible verses say.

 

[Togel]

Nick, one more thing, if Jesus was just a man like us, body, soul, and spirit, and it was the Spirit (Holy Spirit of God) speaking through Jesus, and not Jesus Himself, how can Jesus claim that He will send the Holy Spirit after his ascension?

John 15:26  “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 16:

7  “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

ERV version:

14 The Spirit of truth will bring glory to me by telling you what he receives from me.
15 All that the Father has is mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will tell you what he receives from me.

So, if it was the Holy Spirit talking through Jesus, who will be sending the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit Himself? Of course not, Jesus is talking like a distinct person from the Holy Spirit. Jesus says that He will send the Holy Spirit. Wait a minute! A man sending a Holy Spirit, sending His message to his disciples through the Holy Spirit of God? Is that even possible? Is a man greater than the Spirit of God?

In John 14:25-26, however, we read:

25  “I have told you all these things while I am with you.
26 But the Helper will teach you everything and cause you to remember all that I told you. This Helper is the Holy Spirit* that the Father will send in my name.

So, who will be sending the Holy Spirit, Jesus or the Father? Is Jesus lying? Is the writer of the Gospel of John erroneous? Or are both correct, and so Jesus is claiming/assuming an equal position with the Father, i.e. together sending the Holy Spirit? I choose the latter, because I believe in Jesus and the writer of the Gospel of John.

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

Focus on the Spirit and less on the human vessel.

Ps 104 tells us it is the Spirit that does the creating.

You will remain in confusion till you grasp this important matter.

Flesh contributes nothing.

 

[GeneBalthrop]

TOGEL…..GOD is spirit and can appear anywhere, that is to say his pesents can, not that he is physically vissiable. scriptures tells that no man can see God and live. and no one has ever seen him, why?, because he is spirit and spirits cannot be physically seen, but can be present and even be “iñ” a person, GOD WHO IS SPIRIT was “IN” the ordinaty man Jesus, and can be in us also, or haven’t you read where it says, “if the spirit of him who raised the ANOINTED Jesus from the grave be “IN” YOU, he will “also” (like he did Jesus ), quicken your mortal body”.

God the fathers presence can be in any physical existinf thing, or haven’t you read where Paul tells us,”know you not that your bodies “is” the temple of the living God”. NOW if God inbwells a person , is God’s presence there? I THINK SO, Did not Jesus say GOD the father was “IN” him, he never said he was the Father that was “in” him, now did he?

Have you also failed to have read the son of man can do nothing of himself, the Father who is “IN” him “HE” DOES THE WORKS. and again where it say, and “HE’ (GOD THE FATHER ) came unto his own and his own recieved him not, they as you reject that GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF WAS “IN” THE MAN JESUS, AND NON OF THAT MADE THE MAN JESUS A GOD HIMSELF OF ANYKIND.

PEOPLE TRY TO MAKE THE “CHRISTO’S OR ANOINTED MAN, of GOD A GOD HIMSELF. Even the deciples had a hard timewithunderstanding thatGod the Fatger was actually “in” the man jesus. THOMAS FINALLY CAME TO SEE THAT WHEN HE SAID my lord, “AND” my God,notice he did not say, my lord GOD, which would have made JESUS, HIS GOD, But came to understand GOD the Father was present “in” his lord (adoni, a human ruler) Jesus.

Togel…..I don’t know how long you have been taught false teaching you are holding on to, but it takes a person who really seeks and loves the truth to overcome all those false teachings that decieved christanity has put on people through the influence of satan himself working through his ministers.

Remember what Jesus said that “MANY” would come and say that HE WAS, and deceive MANY”, Most all Christendom has been decieved about who JESUS RWALLY IS. IMO

peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

[kerwin]

Togel,

The Son is the word that comes out of God’s mouth according to the first century teachings of Philo of Alexandria. We are taught to assume it is Jesus but it could be used for both him and the word of God as Jesus also has many of the characteristics that Philo attributes to God’s word.

[kerwin]

Toggle,

Did you study anything about Philo’s writings in your theological studies?

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

The relevant sonship to God is the Spiritual one, rebirth according to the Spirit. Rom 1

At the Jordan Jesus became the anointed one, Jesus Christ.

From that point on the scriptures show the power of God at work IN a man.

Not by might nor by power but by the Spirit. Zech 3

 

[Togel]

Hi Nick,

It is as if you are saying that Jesus received the Holy Spirit only at his 30 years of age, and before that He is just like us, body, spirit, and soul.

If that is your position, I am sorry, Sir, but I think you are wrong. You are ignoring the fact of Jesus’ miraculous birth.

Jesus was conceived BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, Jesus already had the Holy Spirit FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, not at baptism in Jordan. The baptism by John was somewhat only legalization, since John himself did not feel that he is worthy of doing that:

Matthew 3:14-15

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

And even before John baptized Jesus, John already acknowledged that Jesus is mightier than himself:

11 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 “His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

So, is Jesus’ baptism really essential for His power? No. Without the baptism, Jesus would still be the same Jesus, who is the Christ. He already had all the power of the Son of God, as acknoledged by John the baptist. Jesus already had the ‘winnowing fan in His hand’ even before He was baptized by John.

From John 1:30-32 (ERV version), we read that the purpose of the baptism is to declare the Messiah to Israel, and John also acknowledged that Jesus HAD BEEN LIVING LONG BEFORE JOHN WAS BORN. So, even John, the man who baptized Jesus, know that Jesus PREEXISTED him, and you claim that Jesus did not? Are you more knowledgable than John the Baptist? John was born before Jesus, yet he said that Jesus was living long before he was born.

John 1:30-32

30 This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘There is a man coming after me who is greater than I am, because he was living long before I was born.’
31 I did not know who he was. But I came baptizing people with water so that the people of Israel* could know that he is the Messiah.*”
32 Then John said this for everyone to hear: “I also did not know who the Messiah was. But the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘You will see the Spirit* come down and rest on a man. He is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen this happen. I saw the Spirit come down from heaven like a dove and rest on this man. So this is what I tell people: ‘He is the Son of God.’*”

And another fact from Jesus’ miraculous conception is this: JESUS DID NOT HAVE THE Y CHROMOSOME OF ADAM. Therefore, Jesus did not have the same body like us. Without 2 chromosomes of a human father (XY), God could tweaks any perfect chromosomes that He likes for Jesus’ physical body, and so, it is possible that Jesus could have YYY chromosomes instead of just XY, making Him a superman, or XYY, which still makes his physical body extraordinary, or any other tweaks.

Apart from having a different physical body than the rest of us, Jesus also has a different Spirit inside of him SINCE HIS CONCEPTION, i.e. the Spirit of God.

So, your position about Jesus’ nature before His baptism is wrong, as stated by the Scripture, through the words of John the baptist, and the angel Gabriel who announced His conception to Mary.

[Togel]

Hi Kerwin,

I have heard of it, but never really studied it or have any access to it. Philo’s writings may be important, but for me, the Scripture is way more important, and it is also long enough already 🙂

So, for now I focused on just reading the Bible and commentaries and also debating with Muslims to evangelize them, and improve my understanding of the Scripture, because by debating, I have to keep learning. That’s the reason I arrived at this site: reading about the Islamic End Time Beast, which is a very interesting topic. I fully agree with the writer of this blog about that.

[Togel]

Hi Gene,

Please read my reply to Nick above.

John the Baptist acknowledged that Jesus was living long before he was born, which means that Jesus exists prior to His birth:

John 1:30

30 This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘There is a man coming after me who is greater than I am,because he was living long before I was born.’

So, the teaching that Jesus exists before His birth is Scriptural, and also, again, the book of Hebrew clearly says that God the Father calls Jesus, God:

Hebrew 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

And Peter and Paul also acknowledge that Jesus is God and Savior.

So, it is NOT THE (LATTER) PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO MAKE JESUS GOD.

Also, the Old Testament is full of stories of the encounter of man and God in man’s form. Many believe that this is Jesus before His Incarnation, and this is called CHRISTOPHANY. Read about it and you will see that there are a lot of evidence for this.

So, I think, I am not holding to a false teaching, but to Biblical teaching. It’s you who are holding to a false teaching, or at the very least, to an incomplete teaching. You are belittling Jesus’ nature and identity, and I pray that He forgives you for that.

Oh, and one more, John, writes in John 12:41 that Isaiah saw Jesus’ divine greatness.

John 12:41 (ERV) Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ divine greatness. So he spoke about him.

We can read in Isaiah 6:10, what he saw, which John refer to in this verse,:

1  In the year that King Uzziah* died,* I saw the Lord sitting on a very high and wonderful throne. His long robe filled the Temple.*
2 Seraph angels* stood around him. Each angel had six wings. They used two wings to cover their faces, two wings to cover their bodies, and two wings to fly.
3 The angels were calling to each other, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD All-Powerful. His Glory* fills the whole earth.”

So, according to John, Isaiah saw Jesus sitting on His throne, and the angels calling “Holy, holy, holy”. Ever wonder why the angels say “holy” 3 times? Not 1 time? or 7 time?

Also, if God is NOT VISIBLE, then, who is this that Isaiah saw? God cannot be seen, but Isaiah saw Him? This is surely the image of God, who is the Son of God, who is visible.

So, if you really want to stick with your position, you will have to dispose of the Gospel of John and the Book of Hebrew.

 

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

So you think that his conception by the Spirit of creation made him more than a man?

scripture disagrees.

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

John the prophet could see spiritually.

He was speaking of the anointing Spirit not the man.

[NickHassan]

Hi Togel,

The Lord in the OT does not refer to Jesus but to his Father God.

The fantasy that Jesus had a separate throne from God is quite unscriptural

Compare the description of the heavenly throneroom in Rev 4  and this will confirm it.

The NIV translators added to the confusion by adding JESUS to Jn.12.41. Check the manuscripts

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