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Togel
so you assume that God is with God from the beginning ?
but scriptures says God has no beginning
and how you combine Paul’s words in Col;1 15-21
and Revelation 19;13
T8,
You said:
If I spoke to Jesus, am I not also allowed or able to give God the glory just because I spoke to him?
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Are you that dumb? Sorry, I don’t mean to insult you. Nobody’s saying that! Of course you or Thomas could give thanks to God, even when you are talking to Jesus, but that verse DOES NOT say that. That verse clearly says that Thomas answered Jesus or Thomas said to Jesus, and so whatever he said there, he was addressing Jesus.
If Thomas wanted to give thanks to God, he would have said it differently, something like “Thank you God for this revelation, and to Jesus, My Lord”. But he did not.
You want to impose this interpretation on this verse because you STICK to a teaching from the 3rd century! You know what, the trinitarianism was formulated after the heretical unitarianism was spread. It was a conclusion made by the majority of the church leaders of the belief of the orthodox Christianity against a heretic. So, don’t you turn the fact upside down. It’s your doctrine that was formulated in the 3rd century, whereas trinitarianism was there from the beginning of Christianity, but just formulated into a creed at the third century, from the time of the Apostles, from about the time when Thomas said to Jesus “My Lord and My God”, which you ironically cannot say to Jesus because you follow a latter-formulated heretic-made doctrine!
So, you want to discuss the verse where Jesus said this:
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.
Fine. Now, read that verse carefully, do you read that Jesus ACTUALLY refuses to be called good? No! He was just questioning the man, why he called Jesus good. Why? Not “Don’t call me good”.
Now, don’t do what you like to do, i.e. reading and believing only part of the Scripture, not its entirety, read all the verses related to it:
19 “You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”and the question:
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
Basically Jesus is saying here that one has to do all the laws that God had given to inherit eternal life, and what are the laws? Jesus summed it into 2:
Mark 12:29-31
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
30 ‘And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
31 “And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”The laws are these:
1. Love thy God
2. Love thy neighbors.
Now, back to Mark 10, read verse 19, and you will see the law number 2 in details mentioned by Jesus.
The man had done it all, good. But is it enough? No, of course not, because it is only HALF of the law. He also had to obey the first law: love thy God!
So, where is it?
Read verse 21: “Follow me”
There! Jesus is replacing “Love thy God with all your everything” with “Follow me”. If Jesus is not God, then he’s just crazy, because He’s replacing God with Himself!
Now, I do not interpret anything, I just connect the pieces. So, it’s simple logic without RE-interpretation.
Togel
did God has a son and is that son is called Jesus ? if yes then the son cannot be the father of which he his the son of ,
only in your own mind not in scriptures,and God does not lie,men does
Are you that dumb? Sorry, I don’t mean to insult you. Nobody’s saying that! Of course you or Thomas could give thanks to God, even when you are talking to Jesus, but that verse DOES NOT say that. That verse clearly says that Thomas answered Jesus or Thomas said to Jesus, and so whatever he said there, he was addressing Jesus.
What is so dumb about that? Nothing. If I needed $100 to pay my rent and didn’t have it then I would be worried. But let’s say you gave me $100 out of generosity. I would certainly thank you for helping me out. So I could turn to you and say “thank you Togel”. But as a Believer I wouldn’t want to forget to thank God too, so if I turned to you and said, “thank you Togel, and thank you God”, then anyone who took that to mean that I called you God because I addressed you would be wrong.
Terrarica,
I do NOT assume. I read the Scriptures:
John 1:1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.See, it is not me who said that God was with God from the beginning. It’s the Gospel of John. So, how can you accuse of me of “assuming”? I don’t understand you.
Well, God the Father has a Son, called Jesus. Who says that Jesus is the Father? The Scripture clearly says that Jesus is God, and the Father is God. But Jesus also says that Jesus and the Father are one, and anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. I guess you simply cannot digest this 🙂
T8,
Your story makes sense indeed, but only if Thomas said thank you God. He did NOT, though 🙂
He said to Jesus “My Lord” and also “My God”. Not thank you God.
Once again, you clearly have twisted the Scripture and given it meaning that is not there….
I really hope you can see that your position is full of twisting the Scripture instead of accepting it as it is….
Terraricca,
Which question? That whether I assumed God has a beginning?
I do not assume that God has a beginning. I believe God has no beginning, because He is the beginning, but the Scripture says that “In the beginning”, and this does not mean that God has a beginning, but simply that “in the beginning, the Word was with God and the Word (Jesus) was God”.
Or this question:
and how you combine Paul’s words in Col;1 15-21
and Revelation 19;13
I do not have any problems with those verses. I believe entirely in those verses.
What do I have to “combine” with these verses?
So, you are seeing that the verses that I believe to be showing that Jesus is God are in contradiction with these verses that you are quoting? And therefore you choose to believe only these verses (Col and Rev)? My question to you then is, why do you choose to believe ONLY these verses? Why?
The modalist monarchians choose to believe the ONLY verses that say that Jesus is God, and so they believe that Jesus is the Father and is the Holy Spirit.
Trinitarians choose to believe everything, both sides of the Scripture, that Jesus IS the Father and Jesus IS NOT the Father. How is that possible? You can ask God later, but that is what the Scripture says. You and the modalists believe only in HALF of the truth of the Scripture, the opposing halves, to be precise. That is as clear as the sun in a bright day.
T8,
Your story makes sense indeed, but only if Thomas said thank you God. He did NOT, though 🙂
He said to Jesus “My Lord” and also “My God”. Not thank you God.
Once again, you clearly have twisted the Scripture and given it meaning that is not there….
I really hope you can see that your position is full of twisting the Scripture instead of accepting it as it is….
Not so. We are taught to admonish God in all things. If Thomas was to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, then you would expect that he would ultimately bring God into that and declare God as his God. Are you not aware of the many scriptures that address God and Jesus as his son. If you never noticed it before, then clearly you haven’t read the New Testament. It is riddled with addresses to God and to Jesus as the Lord or his son. Thomas declaration is not unusual it is written in similar terms throughout the New Testament.
I don’t think there is any point in debating this topic further as it is clear that we have both laid out our evidence and you are not willing to acknowledge this even as a possibility even while the New Testament witnesses to this address time and time again. Clearly, you do not believe the following scriptures and are unable to accept that it is quite common to acknowledge both God and his son who he made Lord. Personally, I always give thanks to the Father ultimately even when acknowledging his son or any servant of his.
Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,Above shows a pattern of acknowledgment, often first to God then to his Christ. In Thomas case, he addressed Jesus first because it was Jesus he was speaking and seeing. But he forgot not God and good on him for that. While I have shown you the double use of the indefinite article and showed you other similar verses where both are being addressed, and you still will not believe. You seem like any other religiously brainwashed individual from any religion who is unable to reason or look at the evidence because it threatens their current comfort zone. You would see the same thing with Muslims, JWs, even Atheists. They defend their own culture first, even if scripture says otherwise. You think it is wrong to question, but I say it is wrong not to.
T8,
I BELIEVE in those verses that you show me. I have read all of them many times.
Now, please help me to understand this: how do those verses prove that Jesus is NOT God?
T8,
And btw, what is the difference between your belief and JW’s? I thought you are pretty much the same… both do not believe that Jesus is God.
Togel
and what is the difference between your believe and the pagans ,you seem blind to true understanding
T8,
You know these verses, definitely:
John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, ……………..
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time……..
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time…….
However, we read in the OT that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah SAW God, not in a vision, but saw God with their eyes:
Genesis 18:
1 Then the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,(http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/genesis/18.html)
18:1 ¶ And Yähwè יָהוֶה 3068 appeared 7200 z8735 unto x413 him in the plains 436 of Mamrë´ מַמרֵא: 4471 and he x1931 sat 3427 z8802in the tent 168 door 6607 in the heat 2527 of the day; 3117Exodus 24:
9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.Isaiah 6:1
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Transliteration (http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/6.html):
6:1 ¶ In the year 8141 that king 4428 `Uzziyyà עֻזִּיָּה 5818 died4194 I saw 7200 z8799 also 853 Yähwè יָהוֶה 136 sitting 3427 z8802 uponx5921 a throne, 3678 high 7311 z8802 and lifted up, 5375 z8737 and his train 7757 filled 853 y4392 x4390 the temple. 1964
So, clearly, some people have seen YHWH (Yahwe).
Hmmm…. so, who is this YHWH that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw? the Father? Jesus said that no one has seen the Father. Who is He?
Do you have answer to this?
Unitarians have no answer to these verses. They CANNOT explain these verses because they believe only in half of the truth of the Scripture.
But, if you have answer, do let me know.
your 4 letters are not correct neither is the vowels used in it ,so first get the true letters and the true pronunciation then we talk
you assume that what you say is true but is not
Terrarica,
Which pagan? Islamic belief? Haha.. I think your belief is pretty similar to Islam, that God is only One person and can only be one person. Not unique, but simple, One. There you have it. The only difference between yours and Islam is that you acknowledge that your God has a Son, whereas Islam does not, but the essence of the god is the same.
Or you mean the polytheists? Of course different. Trinitarians have ONE God, unique in its unity, but one. Whereas polytheists have many gods.
Terraricca,
4 letters? Not correct? Which letters? You mean YHWH? You want it to be YHVH? Whatever, that is translation, the original is in Hebrew יָהוֶה , and some English speakers prefers Jehovah, Javanese use Yehuwah, but it’s just translation, and it is not the main point. The main point is, who is the God that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw? Who? Can you answer that?
And in answering, remember this, that Jesus said CLEARLY that nobody has seen the Father!
T8,
I BELIEVE in those verses that you show me. I have read all of them many times.
Rubbish. If you believed them, then you would accept the distinction between God and the son or God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We both know that you teach that both are God as you believe that Jesus is God the Son right?
Tell me Togel, if Jesus is the son of God, then why isn’t the Father called the “Father of God”?
You after all believe that three are God, so you really hold to: God as being:
- The Son of God
- The Spirit of God
- The Father of God
I see no such notion in scripture. You know that the Father is is called “God” or “Father” while Jesus is referred to as being of God, such as son of God, Word of God, etc.
Here is the idol of the Trinity. Explain to me why the Father is not called the “Father of God”.
[caption id="attachment_243" align="alignnone" width="260"]
Ancient diagram of the Trinity[/caption]Togel
so you did not find a answer to my question ;I knew you could’n for I have study this quite intensely ,
yes you would be more correct to address God as the God of Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob ,for by saying so ,you would call on the only true God ,
or the God and father of Jesus ,
those are true statement ,so stop of going in a uncertain road,
I know my God to be my creator ,and the creator of all things ,the God that gives me life,
T8,
You said:
Rubbish. If you believed them, then you would accept the distinction between God and the son or God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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I do accept the distinction between God and the son of God. Dont’ you see? The diagram that you posted, that shows that Jesus IS NOT the Father and is NOT the Holy Spirit, but it also shows that He is the Father and is the Holy Spirit. That’s unique existence that only God has.
Tell me when I said that I do not accept the disctinction between the Father and the Son.
I accept it. Now my question to you is: there are verses that show that Jesus is equal to the Father:
Jesus said I and the Father are one, you seen me you seen the Father, Joh 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine, and the acknowledgement by his disciples of his being God as well as Son of God
Why do you NOT believe them?
I accept the disctinction and unity. You accept ONLY THE DISTINCTION.
Also answer me, whom did Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw in the Old Testament?
Why the Father is not called the Father of God? You tell me, don’t you believe that Jesus is the Son of the Father? Why do you ask me this question?
Terrarica,
WHICH QUESTION of yours have I not answered? Tell me and I will answer it.
Read Hebrew 1:8-12
8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”Oh it seems that God the Father is saying to the Son that the Son was the one who created the heaven and earth!
And you have not answered me either, who was the God (YHWH) that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah see?
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