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But what about those verses that shows that Jesus is God?
What about this verse which says that others are theos too.
‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’
34 Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, “I have said you are ‘gods’”[d]? 35 If he called them “gods”, to whom the word of God came – and Scripture cannot be set aside – 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, “I am God’s Son”?
You see, you make the same error that the Pharisees made. They accused him of claiming to be God and Jesus defended this accusation by saying, he was the son of God. But notice that he quotes the Old Testament when he says: “I have said you are ‘gods’”. The word used here is ‘theos’.
There is much more going on here than most Trinitarians understand. The word ‘theos’ is not an exclusive term for the one true God. It is also applied to Jesus, men, angels, Satan, and idols. It is merely a title and we know there are many gods. But for us, there is one God the Father. But not for you so it seems.
So in short, when asked these questions, here are where we differ:
Do you believe that Jesus is distinct from the Father? We: Yes. You: Yes
Do you believe that Jesus is the same as the Father? We: Yes (Jesus said, John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”) You: No.
Do you believe that Jesus has all the power of God? We: Yes. You: Yes.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? We: Yes. You: Yes
Do you believe that Jesus is God? We: Yes (based on the verses that I qouted above and more). You: No.Togel it is not because I misunderstand the Trinity Doctrine that I do not believe it. I use to believe it for years because that is what I was taught. When I questioned it, the consensus seemed to be that I shouldn’t be asking questions regarding it. I have now studied this doctrine for years and I doubt that you could add a new argument to support it that I have not already heard and refuted.
Rather than resort to such arguments, I am betting you cannot use scripture to support it. To date, I have never seen a Trinitarian prove it from scripture. In the end they resort to three leaf clovers and say that it is unfathomable anyway.
The Father is the one true God.
Jesus is the son of that God who made him both Lord and Christ.
We are made in the image of God.
This is the truth that scripture teaches.
The Trinity is a third century doctrine appointed by a Roman Emperor to help solidify his divided kingdom by bringing in an official unifying doctrine decreed by Rome. From this many fell away from the simple truth about who Jesus really is. Rome persecuted all those who would not hold to this official creed of the empire. In short, the fruit was bad.
But we have the truth written for us in scripture. Many are swayed by the philosophies and doctrines of men that came later on however.
Paul warned us clearly about this:
I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.
Paul was right because history testifies to this.
T8,
Hmmm… now I see that you resort to saying that “theos” applies to many things… I guess you are wrong. The term “el” or “elohim” do, but “theos” apply only to God. That’s what I know.
Well, as I see it, you repeatedly claim that you believe in the scripture, but as I have shown you, you only believe in A PART of the Scripture only, not all of it.
Every verse from the Scripture that you quote, I believe as it is, no condition.
But do you believe every verse from the Scripture that I qoute as it is? No. You do not believe every one of them. Your believe in the Scripture is “discriminate” or “selective”. Or even if you claim to believe every verse in the Scripture, you believe it with some conditions, including the ability to reinterpret them.
Example:
You claim that you can say to Jesus what Peter said to Him: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Well, I say, I SAY that too to Jesus, no problem. Because He is my Messiah, who is the Son of the living God.
But then, I can say to Jesus what Thomas said to Him: “My Lord and my God!”
Can you say that to Jesus? No!
Oh maybe you can but by twisting it into “Oh My God (OMG)! You are my Lord!”
Or because you said that “theos” is just a title, nothing more, then maybe you’ll say “Theos Jesus, you are my Lord!”
See, who’s twisting the Bible verses? You, not I, and yet you claim that I am lost if I believe in the Trinity doctrine. I don’t care about the name of any doctrine, but I believe in the entire teachings of the Bible. If it is called the Trinity, fine, if it is called Tri-unity, fine, whatever, but I just have to believe in every verse in the Scripture. And it seems to me that the Trinity doctrine about God is the most inclusive doctrine about God in the Bible. It covers everything said in all verses about who God and Jesus is.
Again, can you say to Jesus what God the Father, the only One True God said to the Son:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”No you cannot!
But I can say that to Jesus! Why not? Even the Father said that to Jesus according to the Scripture! Why can’t I?
And answer me, WHY CAN’T YOU??
T8
You said: Saying you believe these words means nothing if in principle you deny them.
How do I deny that verse in principle?
Because I believe that what the Scripture teaches that Jesus is God?
So, are you saying that by believing that Jesus is the Son of God sent by the Father, we CANNOT believe that Jesus is God? Because that is contradictory?
Whose logic is that? Yours? Arius’?
Or is there any verse in the Scripture saying principally like this “because Jesus is the Son of God, sent by the Father, He is not God”? Is there?
Since when is “the Son of God sent by the Father” closes the possibility that that Son of God is also God Himself? Since when? Since Arius formulated that doctrine? Yes, I guess so, but that “LOGIC” is not fully Scriptural.
Togel
you did not answered me that ok,last quote contains false interpretation ,
remember that God does not listen to men that follow their own view and understanding of him and his son ,
the truth belong to God and he give it to those that love him ,and those that love him are those that listen to him and learn his truth by living the truth and walked has Jesus walked ,
this said ,
you follow the letter while i learned to follow the spirit of truth ,so in your case you will never come to the truth of God for you do not produce the first requirement to obtain it ,John 3;19
I keep saying that anyone that believe in the trinity is a devil worshiper
we all know that some scriptures have been (words/phrases)miss translated ,but the spirit of truth in the all scriptures has not ,
this is why we have to understand the scriptures by the spirit of truth ,because of this the devil could never come to the true understanding for he is a liar and so is his spirit ,but anyone in the same condition also does not understand truth of God for that same reason ,this is why the angel told Daniel 12; that no wicked will understand ,
in your conclusion you deny God and Jesus his son ,this is clear to me as black and withe ,
all the scriptures you quote to prove that there is a trinity in only in your mind not in the scriptures for all apostles have preached one God almighty creator of all things and one begotten son Jesus the christ the holy spirit (not a being) being only the spirit that bind them together and so bind all truthful believers as one unit in God ,
so what you believe is only what you want to believe and for this Jesus as something waiting for you ,but you may change yet this is up to you,
I could explain this very deeply with scriptures but you don’t believe scriptures ,you only say you do but i can see you do not,
so you would not understand the truth even if i told it to you ,
so read the scriptures with a truthful heart ,
so that Jesus make you see the truth in them
T8,
Hmmm… now I see that you resort to saying that “theos” applies to many things… I guess you are wrong. The term “el” or “elohim” do, but “theos” apply only to God. That’s what I know.
The word ‘Theos’ is used when referring to the Father
Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.The word ‘theos’ is possibly used to describe Jesus.
John 20:28-29 (English-NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”The word ‘theos’ is used to describe Satan
2 Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).The word (theos) can be applied to men
John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’Togel, do you still hold the view that ‘theos’ applies exclusively to the Most High God? Remember you said: “but “theos” apply only to God. That’s what I know”.
I should say the obvious here and state that by reason of your statement you clearly do not have complete knowledge with regards to the usage of ‘theos’.
Do you agree?
Every verse from the Scripture that you quote, I believe as it is, no condition.
I know this is not true. I will test that statement now starting with this question.
Did the only true God send Jesus into the world?
Yes or No?
OK, I think you are right about the use of the word theos there…
So, you think Thomas was saying that Jesus was what kind of theos there?
Part of the god of the world? An angel? or his (Thomas’) theos?
I believe Thomas clearly says that Jesus is “his theos”.
Now, we know that Thomas is a Jew, and who is the God of the Jews? YHWH!
So, clearly Thomas is calling Jesus his theos, who is YHWH.
Or what do you think of that?
And you have not answered me. Can you say to Jesus what Thomas said to Jesus: “You are my Theos?”
If you cannot, then don’t consider yourself a Christian, because you cannot do what a disciple of Jesus does… sorry…
“remember that God does not listen to men that follow their own view and understanding of him and his son ,”
Who follows their own view and understanding about God and His Son? I belive it’s you! Not I! Because I follow what the entire Bible says, but you formulate your own view about God. You try to rationalize Him.
Trinitarians are devil worshippers? Are you out of your minds? The apostles John, Peter, Paul, Thomas, they all believe that Jesus is God, and they are all devil worshippers?
Arius was a heretic; the council of Nicea was held to discuss his teachings, and all Christian leaders agree that his teaching was a heresy, because it disagrees with many parts of the Scripture. Your belief was formulated in the 3rd century, not from the very beginning of Christianity.
However, I pray that Lord forgives you for your ignorance. At the very least, you worship Jesus, do you? Or you don’t? Remember, for you He is not God, and as such, you are committing idolatry by worshipping Jesus, but perhaps God will see that you worship Him after all, so perhaps that’s still OK 🙂 Although you think of Jesus lower that He actually is:
John 5:23 “that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
on one side of your mouth you say that Jesus is the son of God and with your other side you declare him God ,
please fix your mind in the direction you want to go ,for one of your statements is false
Terrarica,
False? None is false, because each is supported by Bible verses.
When each statement is supported by Bible verses, then none is false, and on the contrary, anybody who says that such Biblically-supported statements are false is false in his statement. So, by saying that my belief is false, you are making a false accusation, based NOT on the Scripture, but based on YOUR OWN mind/theory and belief. You believe that because Jesus is the Son of God, he can Not be God, albeit the Bible clearly stating otherwise.
You know what, even unitarians do not agree with one another. On one side, they say that Jesus is not God, but only the Son of God, who is subordinate to God. On the other side, the Monarchians or Modalists, they believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD Incarnate. That Jesus was the Father and later became the Holy Spirit.
See? How can there be such VERY SHARP difference? Because both sides are supported by Bible verses!! Each of these two sides are supported by Bible verses, and so each teaching has the truth. Your belief has some truth because it is supported by the Bible, the modalists’ believe also has some truth because it is supported by the Bible as well. However, each of you chooses to close your eyes to the Bible verses that support the other view. So, the truth of each of your teachings is just NOT THE COMPLETE TRUTH.
The Trinitarianism is the only teaching that accepts all sides of views taught in the Bible, and so it’s belief is the COMPLETE truth.
We believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is God.
ok,Togel
there are dozens of clear scriptures that says Jesus is THE SON OF GOD ,
there are clear scriptures that says JESUS HAS A GOD
there are clear scriptures that says that JESUS CALLED HIS GOD FATHER
there are clear scriptures that says jESUS CAME TO DO HIS FATHER /GOD WILL
scriptures also said that all who will do God’s will will become one with them in the very same way that God and Jesus are one in will ,
now you say the trinity is scriptural ? there is not a sign of that word in the scriptures,
you say Jesus is God ,PLEASE SHOW ME A CLEAR SCRIPTURE WHERE THIS IS SAID ?
and I stick to the words I have said about devil worshipers,
and please don’t pray for me for the prayers of the unrighteous are not heard by God ,and i want nothing to do with the devil,
so give the answers;
Terrarica,
What you wrote is true, but NOT THE ENTIRE TRUTH:
======
there are dozens of clear scriptures that says Jesus is THE SON OF GOD ,
there are clear scriptures that says JESUS HAS A GOD
there are clear scriptures that says that JESUS CALLED HIS GOD FATHER
there are clear scriptures that says jESUS CAME TO DO HIS FATHER /GOD WILL
=======
I agree with the above. However, you also need to see “the other side” of the Scripture that says that Jesus is God. Examples:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (Jesus did not rebuke him)
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Rome 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Heb 1: 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
And there are many other verses that can be used to support the argument, undeniably. You cannot refute all of them.
You will just have to open your heart and accept the ENTIRE TRUTH, not just “one side” of the truth.
Now my question to you also, can you say to Jesus what Thomas said to Jesus: “My Lord and My god”?
If you cannot, why not? Do not claim to be a Christian when you cannot do what a disciple of Jesus does.
Togel.
The Bible is full of references that the Father is the one true God and that for us there is one God the Father. There are a few verses that with the comma put in the right or wrong place can then be read as Jesus being God which contradicts the rest of scripture that say that the Father is exclusively the one true God. If you accept these verses actually say that Jesus is the One True God, then you have a huge contradiction to contend with. Whereas when you accept that these verses say something else that can equally be derived by placing the comma elsewhere, then you have no contradiction. It does help when reading or translating verses to view the meaning that the rest of scripture supports. Here is an example of what I am talking about regarding a different topic.
“Most of the time, travellers worry about their luggage.”
vs
“Most of the time travellers worry about their luggage”One talks about travellers and the other talks about time travellers.
or
“Stop clubbing baby seals”
vs
“Stop clubbing, baby seals”One makes sense, the other implies that baby seals go to nightclubs.
T8,
You asked (sorry, I did not know how to quote your questions into my answer):
Did Jesus say that he was sent by the ONLY true God?
===
I already answered, I believe He said so several times in the Bible, so I believe it.
T8,
Here’s your problem again: “your logic is trying to take over you”.
You said: “then you have a huge contradiction to contend with.”
There, you want to RATIONALIZE everything with your TINY brain. (Not just yours, but mine also, all of us’, is tiny compared to God).
You believe that God must NOT have any contradiction, but I already wrote that Trinitarianism is contradictory by its very nature. So, you are just confirming what I wrote, but THAT IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURE TEACHES, whether or not it defies your (our) tiny-brain-produced logic.
By believing in unitarianism, you are basically following this principle strictly: “God has to be logic IN MY MIND”, otherwise He is not the true God.
JUST LIKE MOSLEMS!! Don’t you realize that? You are sticking too much to your own mind instead of the Scriptures.
Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
God and the Lamb (Jesus Christ) is on the same throne. Do you think God would place a creature to share His Glory? Never!
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another,
Jesus is NOT another.
So, here, where do you want to move the comma to? C’mon Bro, not everything about Jesus being God depends on just moving a punctuation.
Togel
all you showed are by no means a direct statement that Jesus the only begotten son of God is God himself ,but it is only in your mind,
now you say that Jesus has a God and that Jesus is subdue to his God and father ,and this is the apostles teaching as well,
now you say that Jesus is God and so his own father, by saying this you make a liar out of Jesus and his apostles but what is worst of all
you make a liar of God almighty for he say to us all that Jesus is his son and so not himself ,only the devil will teach such a lie,
for God cannot lie says scriptures
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