Revelation 1:8 & Revelation 1:17-18

[Proclaimer]

and i only know one more distress/tribulation in 70 AD

Acts 14:22
Strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.…

So IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened. But you say that this particular darkened sun was darkened before the Tribulation which was in 70AD. Obviously Jesus died before 70AD. Further, when the sun is darkened according to Jesus, the son of man will appear in great glory. But that never happened either. We are awaiting this and this is the hope we have in our hearts. It is hope because it hasn’t happened yet.

Clearly, there appeared an eclipse or other such event after Jesus died as we read about that. But this cannot by reason of the events described here be the darkened sun of the Great Tribulation because after that Tribulation the son of man returns in great glory, AT THAT TIME as it is written.

The other point you should take note of here is that the darkened sun was a sign and men said that “surely he was the Christ” upon seeing this and other signs. But you say that God doesn’t use the sun as a sign. But this is clear evidence to the contrary.

Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

So what were the signs that led these men to declare him as the son of God?

• From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land;
• the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;
• the earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open;
• the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Clearly a darkened sun here was given as a sign. Further, the events of the Great Tribulation are in a succession that does not agree with your view. Finally, we know that there are many tribulations, but one Great Tribulation. Of course it stands to reason that there can only be one that is the greatest, just like God is the greatest.

 

[terraricca]

t8

now you got the scriptures please tell the difference in tribulation in those scriptures ?

and how long for each

[Proclaimer]

Hang on. You haven’t answered the outstanding question.

Your 70Ad Great Tribulation interpretation doesn’t match the words of Jesus when he talks about this great tribulation. Please explain this first. You may need to read my previous post again to see the outstanding question or questions.

[terraricca]

first it is called distress not tribulation prior and 70 AD (about 1 year)(but many years for those that went on as slaves)this is related to what God told the Israelites through Moses if they would go after the gods of the nations he destroyed before them.

the great tribulation in revelation is called great for it could last for many years depending when you first came to Christ and when you passed away ,
revelation kind of cumulate all our tribulations in Christ under one “great tribulation” in which we show faithfulness and integrity and total obedience to God and his son even to dead ,(washed their robe in the blood of Jesus )

[942767]

Marty

I get back to you later but what I have understood of you is that God had a dream in his heart and it was Jesus ,dream what you call “foreordained

No, God did not have a dream about having a Son, He knew from the beginning that He would have a Son through whom He would fulfill His purpose for the creation.

This is what 1 John 1 states:

1 John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

² (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

The information in Parenthesis states that “eternal life was with the Father” from the beginning.  Jesus himself was not with the Father as sentient person.

[terraricca]

Marty

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning,(Jesus) which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. (the message of Jesus)
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared (Jesus the son of God); we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life(Jesus the son of God ,the lamb), which was with the Father and has appeared to us. (the WORD,Jesus,the son of God ;;Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. )
Jn 1:15 John (the baptist)testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”
1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.

your interpretation is bias to some of the scriptures; and so make the scriptures lies,

[Proclaimer]

I have to agree with Terr on this one Marty, but I remain open minded to any evidence to the contrary.

[Proclaimer]

Terr, I believe that Jesus spoke about 70AD to his disciples. But I do not believe the Great Tribulation was that, or personal to each person, rather a specific time that will be so great that no time before or after will be as distressing as this. However, as usual, I remain open minded to the contrary and will consider evidence given for that view.

[terraricca]

the great tribulation in Revelation is the personal tribulation of each person that comes to Jesus ,

my base for saying this is the entire scriptures ;everything in the teachings in scriptures is set to make people to believe in God ;just as the first commandment says ,

Jesus also tells all to do the same and that we all should be born again not born of flesh but of the spirit (from our views to God’s views)

all the letters /gospels are directing everyone to change to imitate Jesus ,and to bring changes to their soul to be found approved by God at the judgment day ,walk according to the faith in Christ ,not according to what you believe should be a good thing to follow ,

I can show hundreds of scriptures to show this and none to contradict it ,

no one can be saved by one time one event ;not even Noah ;did not Noah walked according to his faith ? yes he build the Ark for about a 100 years

[942767]

Hi T8:

The scripture in 1 John 1 states that “eternal life was with the Father”, and we know that the “life was made manifest, and so, God knew from the beginning that this would be done at a particular point in time.  You may been a just a twinkle in your Father’s eye before you were born, and your Father did not know that someday he would have a son, but God doesn’t have a problem knowing when he will have a Son.

“The Word” in John 1 is that which God has spoken, and embodies a plan, and that plan pertains to making man in His image.  The first man was like God in that he has a mind, a will, and emotions, and the “last Adam” is the “express image of God’s person.  The Word, that which God had spoken,  in John 1 pertains to Jesus, and the Word became flesh, that which God had spoken, became a reality.  There are how many scriptures in the OT that are prophetic relative to the coming of the Messiah?

1 Peter 1:

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Galatians 4:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Ephesians 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

John 6:
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

(he said that the bread that he was talking about was his flesh, and specifically, he was speaking of what was going to be done through his body. He said that the Father is the one who gives of the true bread from heaven, and we know that the scriptures state that it was God dwelling within him and speaking to humanity trough him)

John 6:

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

(And yes, the spirit of the Lord was with God in the beginning)

Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Love in Christ,
Marty

 

 

 

 

[terraricca]

error

[terraricca]

Marty

it is ridicul to believe that John said that God is in the beginning with his own WORD, for we all know that where a being goes his heart and soul and his mind and so his word goes with him ,

now it says also in the beginning THE WORD was with God ,can you tell me which beginning was that ? was it the beginning of God ? impossible God has no beginning ,

it is also ridicule to believe that words can become flesh as per John a witness of Jesus the son of God ,

now you say that Jesus was preordained this is true Genesis 3;15 God as made his son(the WORD) the one that will come down from heaven to give a sinless live for the sins of the world ,

in fact John through his revelation in Revelation 19 shows the connection of the WORD of God and JESUS THE LAMB ,

you also never answered my question ;Can a man be born from a women the sin of Adam and so be declared sinless ?

and yes the WORD was there in the beginning ,yes the beginning of creation for ALL THINGS WERE CREATED through him and for him just as scriptures says it is ,

no need to invent a special words or secret word to understand what scriptures says plainly

denying that Jesus came from the father (from heaven) would be a total rejection of the son of God see 1 John,(the antichrist )

you also never answer my question about Mary not be able to transmitting the sin of Adam and so give birth to a sinless son ?

[942767]

Marty

it is ridicul to believe that John said that God is in the beginning with his own WORD, for we all know that where a being goes his heart and soul and his mind and so his word goes with him ,

now it says also in the beginning THE WORD was with God ,can you tell me which beginning was that ? was it the beginning of God ? impossible God has no beginning ,

(Does Jesus have a beginning?  The scriptures state “that eternal life was with the Father”, and so, when He began to create the heavens, and the earth, He had a plan for His creation, and that is the beginning  to which John 1 refers.  God knew how He would give eternal life to mankind.  He created the “first Adam” with the “last Adam in mind”)

Hebrews 11:

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

it is also ridicule to believe that words can become flesh as per John a witness of Jesus the son of God ,

(Why is it ridiculous for that which God has spoken prophetically in the OT to become a reality? As I stated, there many scriptures in the OT which speak of the coming of the Messiah)

Luke 24:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

now you say that Jesus was preordained this is true Genesis 3;15 God as made his son(the WORD) the one that will come down from heaven to give a sinless live for the sins of the world ,

(You are assuming that the Son (is “the Word”) in John 1, but the scriptures do not state this. Jesus in John 6 states that the Father gives the true bread from heaven, and we know that God was in Christ, and was speaking to humanity through him, and he states in John 6 that it is the Words that he was speaking to humanity that came from heaven, however Jesus is that spirit in that he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross. And so, in Revelation 19 the scriptures state “that his name is called the Word of God”. The name refers to “his Character, and his position of authority as Lord over the heavens and the earth and the judge of the living and dead”, but the scriptures do not state that “the Son is the Word”)

in fact John through his revelation in Revelation 19 shows the connection of the WORD of God and JESUS THE LAMB ,

(See what I have stated above relative to Revelation 19, 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

you also never answered my question ;Can a man be born from a women the sin of Adam and so be declared sinless ?

(Again, you are assuming that man was born in sin by virtue of the fall of Adam, but no, man was not born in sin, but yes, all men born of the sperm of man have sinned. Jesus was not born of the sperm of man, and he could of sinned but he did not but obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross. He overcame sin and death by virtue of obeying God with out sin unto death on the cross.)

Isaiah 53:
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The scriptures state that sin is “is the transgression of God’s Law”, and no, infant born of a woman has ever transgressed God’s Law”, and so, yes of course, someone born of a woman as an infant can live a sinless life. Someone did and that someone is Jesus)

1 John 3:4 [Full Chapter]
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

and yes the WORD was there in the beginning ,yes the beginning of creation for ALL THINGS WERE CREATED through him and for him just as scriptures says it is ,

no need to invent a special words or secret word to understand what scriptures says plainly

(So, where does it say that “Jesus was with God in the beginning or that “the Word is the Son” that was God in the beginning? In scriptures state “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.)

(“The Word was God?” Jesus is not God. He is the Christ the Son of the Living God, and is the express image of his person. He never claimed to be God)

denying that Jesus came from the father (from heaven) would be a total rejection of the son of God see 1 John,(the antichrist )

(I am not denying that He came from the Father and that he was born in to this world a man child. He came in the flesh as God’s Christ.
To deny that he came in the flesh as God’s uniquely begotten Son and His Christ is Anti-Christ”

you also never answer my question about Mary not be able to transmitting the sin of Adam and so give birth to a sinless son ? (I answered this question above. Man was not born in sin, and so, yes, as a matter of fact all infants born into this world are born sinless. Sin is the transgression of the Law, and no, infant has ever transgressed the Law of God.)

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

you also never answer my question about Mary not be able to transmitting the sin of Adam and so give birth to a sinless son ? (I answered this question above. Man was not born in sin, and so, yes, as a matter of fact all infants born into this world are born sinless. Sin is the transgression of the Law, and no, infant has ever transgressed the Law of God.)

=============================================

 

a quick question “why are those born NOT under the law (prior to the law given by God or live without god’s law ) they all died ?

RO 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
1CO 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

where does it say that a newborn is born sinless ?

now ;

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him(Jesus-the Word) all things were made; without him (Jesus=the Word)nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him (Jesus=the Word)was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jn 1:5 The light(Jesus=the Word) shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light (Jesus=the Word)to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He (Jesus=the Word)was in the world, and though the world was made through him(Jesus=the Word), the world did not recognize him.(Jesus=the word)
Jn 1:11 He(Jesus=the Word) came to that which was his(Jesus =the Word) own, but his (Jesus=the Word)own did not receive him. (Jesus the Word)
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him(jesus), to those who believed in his(Jesus) name, he (Jesus)gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 1:14 The Word (Jesus)became flesh and made his(Jesus) dwelling among us. We have seen his(Jesus) glory, the glory of the One and Only(Jesus=the Word), who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his (Jesus)grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only(Jesus=the Word), who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

so Jesus is THE WORD  NOT WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD

Col 1:15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (Jesus)and for him. (Jesus)
Col 1:17 He(Jesus) is before all things, and in him (Jesus)all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he (Jesus)is the head of the body, the church; he(Jesus =the Word) is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,(Jesus =the Word)

 

 

 

 

[942767]

Hi Pierre:

a quick question “why are those born NOT under the law (prior to the law given by God or live without god’s law ) they all died ?

Because even though the Law had not been given “all men have sinned”. The scripture states that all men have sinned. It does not say that they were born in sin. Sin is a spiritual matter. Please show me an infant that has sinned.

Romans 5;
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

When you say “The Word” in John 1 and the verses following you are adding your opinion to God’s Word. The Word pertains to Jesus, but it is not him as some pre-existent being. “The Word was made flesh”. He is the “last Adam”.

John 6:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 12:

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

 

The scripture states that all men have sinned

========================

would this mean all women are not sinners ?

is the expression ALL MEN includes women and children born of men /women ?

[942767]

The term “men” means mankind which includes women. All mankind born of the sperm of man have sinned.

[terraricca]

marty

so this mean that all mankind as sinned even new born /women and so they carry the death sentence given to Adam for his sin ,

so that any human with the curse of death will transmitted to its offspring ,

so no one can be without sin unless he is born totally detached from the flesh cursed by the sin of Adam .

and so Mary must have been a surrogate mother to Jesus ,for this he would be born without sin and remain sinless until death,

for Jesus was a pure lamb without blemish

 

 

 

 

[942767]

No, I have already showed you by the scriptures that sin is the transgression of the Law of God.  Adam sinned when he disobeyed God not to eat of the tree of the knowledge and good and evil, and even though the Law of God had not been given all men from Adam unto Moses sinned even though they had not been given any direct commandments.

Sin is a spiritual matter you cannot transmit sin to anyone.  You can either obey God’s Word or disobey it.  If you choose to disobey it then you are in sin.

Jesus was born of a woman, and he was born without sin.  The life of the flesh is in the blood.  Sin cannot be transmitted through the blood.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

you seem to contradict yourself ;Adam sin was transmitted to all mankind by the means of his flesh for no one ever could access to everlasting life through the food needed to do that ,

and yes you are right the the sin is spiritual done with the soul ,but acted out with the flesh ,for this we all waiting the judgment of our soul ,

life is in the blood ,was a testimony since Abel for the coming of Jesus sacrifice the true Lamb ,the price of a life for a life ,

understand their are many ways to die without losing all of your blood ,and the garden of Eden was one of those ,for the tree of life was in it and without of it all men will die including women /children/new born ect

so you did not believe that Mary by being a genetical mother could transmitted the corruption of her body to Christ ?

I do not deny that Mary was Jesus mother or the women that give birth to him ,but I do not believe that God uses tinted bodies to bring forth perfection ,but unsoiled life to that,and so Mary was Jesus surrogate mother

[Author]

Posts