Revelation 1:8 & Revelation 1:17-18

This topic contains 112 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  terraricca 1 year, 11 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #817861
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    The argument with combining these two verses leads many to believe that Jesus must be the Almighty God. In Revelation 1:8 it says:

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty

    Clearly the above verse is speaking of God. But the verse below is clearly talking about Jesus.

    And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

    The above verse shows us that God is the Alpha and Omega and Jesus is the First and the Last. Thus the argument is made that Jesus must be God because both are called the First and Last or Alpha and Omega. So what is going on here?

    The Alpha and Omega or First and Last is a Jewish idiom that speaks of the ultimate in the category that the context speaks of. While God is clearly the ultimate of all without question, clearly Jesus his son is the firstborn of all creation and everlasting life is through him. Of course we would not say that God was the first and the last in this category because God was not born, rather he always was and is, and is to come as it is written.

    I could theoretically use this idiom to describe myself if I was the author of this site and the first and the last to post here. That could make me the ultimate member of this website (category). As you can imagine, this saying can be applicable in many contexts. For example, there is a map in London called the A-Z (think alpha and omega). It covers the streets in London. It is considered by some to be the ultimate London street map. But if God is the A-Z too, then can we say that God is that map as well? Well we need to look at the context we are defining don’t we. In what category could Jesus be first and last? Well there are many, but here are a couple:

    • He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2);
    • He is the beginning of grace and the fulfilling/end of the Law (Matthew 5:17).

    In Revelation 1:8, it is clearly talking about the Almighty God while in Revelation 1:17-18 it is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ. So what context is the the First and Last speaking with regards to Jesus? Well Revelation 18 actually tells us clearly.

    “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive”.

    We know that Jesus rose from the dead, and because of this, many others will also be raised thereafter. He is the firstborn from the dead right? Further, we know that God cannot die and that this is not talking about God here. Satan would love us to believe that God could die. But he is the God of the living not the dead. If God died, then it would be game over for all life. That would be impossible though and we should be very thankful for that. So the God of the Living is not the one who died and became alive. In fact the God of the Living raised Jesus from the dead.

    Acts 2:24
    But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

    Romans 8:11
    And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

    Clearly, God is the Alpha and Omega. He is the ultimate and without rival. His son Jesus Christ the Lord is the first and last. He is both the firstborn of all creation and of the dead. And he is alive for ever more and can impart that life to his brethren.

    #817869
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    the alpha and the omega is the same as being the first and last

    now in what way does God is the alpha and omega ;well all started with God and will end with God

    then now how does it apply to Jesus ; well Jesus is the first creation of God and all other things where created through him ,not one thing was created without him, so in this way he is the first /alpha and since no one can come to God but through him ,so he is also to us all the end /omega

    Rev1;8 talks about Jesus for God always is  no beginning no end

     

    #817897
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    Agreed.

    #817901
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    we are not that far apart ,May God bless you

    #817906
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    I should say however that I am not convinced that Jesus is a created being. He may be. I know this about him. He was begotten directly of the Father and is why he is the son of God. We are created beings, but we are also begotten in order to be sons of God. Jesus was begotten, but then came in the flesh. He became one of us so we could be one of him. I think you probably agree with that mostly. We may differ on the meaning of ‘created’ vs ‘begotten’ though.

    #817907
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    And God bless you too.

    #817915
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    “could be one of him ” this i do not believe for scriptures says “ONE WITH HIM “big difference ,

    I believe we will never be like him as a power but like him as a devoted beings to his father has he been ,

    like scriptures says God has no beginning but Jesus the son has ,for he was the first creation of his father ,if not then he was God and so he could not come and die ,we cannot have it both ways

    Just as Adam was created and through whom all men have been come to life ,except Jesus and all men have a way to live through the blood given by Jesus

    being the only son of God ;and become sons of God through the only son of God  is not the same thing

    #817921
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    “could be one of him ” this i do not believe for scriptures says “ONE WITH HIM “big difference ,

    I will let scripture speak to you.

    1 Corinthians 15:45-46
    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.

    1 John 3:2
    Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

    Revelation 1:13-15
    and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.…

    You should know that Jesus is the son of God by extension of that, we are the sons of God. Further, we will be like the angels.

    Matthew 22:30
    At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

    Terr, do you not have this hope in your heart? Or have you surrendered to the idea of keeping this body of death?

     

    #817923
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    what about Phil 3;15 and Rev 7 only 144k are redeemed from the earth

    Now i see that Matth 22;30 applies to both classes ,God did not created the earth to be a vacant place but totally full of righteous people fulfilling his will on earth like it is in heaven

    #817926
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    What about what? You either agree or disagree with the scriptures I gave. Saying what about this and that is the same as saying what about this because it negates those scriptures. You need to take all the scripture, not just a select few.

    Phil 3;15
    All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.

    Exactly. Why not embrace this view. It is not I that wrote it. It is scripture. So I have nothing selfish to gain from helping people believe these scriptures.

    #817927
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    Well I do not feel like having a heavenly call and yet I am very mature in the understanding of those scriptures

    #817935
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    If you do not want the promises of God for yourself and do not aspire to anything greater than what you are now, then that is your choice is it not?

    #817961
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    NO,i am not the one that chooses his seat but God does ,I do not want to be arrogant and take the seat that belong to someone else ,and as Jesus said this person will be humiliated in front of all when told that his seat is down the aisle at a lower level ,

    now Jesus promise for all his followers is everlasting live  ,but some are called to be with him ,but not all ,Rev 7;says 144k

    we that are washed in Christ blood have gone from death to live ,did I have mist something ?

    #818021
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    You don’t believe the message about the body and nature we will have. We will be like Jesus and he calls us brothers. Brothers because we are kindred.

    Remember your the one that said:

    “could be one of him ” this i do not believe for scriptures says “ONE WITH HIM “big difference

    Yes one of him and one with him as you already agree. Jesus is a son and so we are sons who do the will of the Father. Of course Jesus is not just any son. He is the prototype son.

    #818023
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    t8

    I go one step further Jesus is the elder of all the sons of God this cannot be changed for he is the first of all creation ,

    we are but renewed sons of God through Jesus blood and so receive a new sonship from God but is it a sonship like Adam or like Jesus (heavenly sonship)

    well scriptures says that only some could become sons of God (John 1…) and also John in Revelation 7/14 shows that only 144k are redeemed from the earth,what then about all the others ? to my understanding we become sons of God according to Adam but through the blood of his heavenly son Jesus,

    John describe the 144k as the heavenly Jerusalem that will descent to earth and be the light of the world in the new heaven and earth created by God

    I am happy just to be one member of God’s family in heaven or on earth has God please .

    #818050
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    I mostly agree with your post and am happy to trust God with where he will place us. God knows best.

    to my understanding we become sons of God according to Adam but through the blood of his heavenly son Jesus,

    For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.…

    Clearly we should be in Christ, and not remain in Adam. Further, we will be like him and he calls us brothers. The first Adam was a living soul, but the final Adam is a life-giving spirit. There are some remarkable differences and Paul reinforces this.

    The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man from heaven.…

    I think this is pretty clear.

    #818052
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    t8

    when you say “in Christ” what does it mean ? according to the entire scriptures ?

    #818071
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    The verse says “in Adam”, so that is the first clue as to what it means to be “in Christ”.

    Personally. I think of it like a grapevine or olive tree. The root is Adam and all humanity are the branches that grew from that. However, that tree is dying because it brings death. It is cut off from God. But Christ is the new vine or olive tree and we are grafted in and receive the nourishment of that tree. This tree is tended to by God the Father. It is a fruitful tree unlike the Adam tree.

    #818073
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    so in a practical way ,Adam by his action moved away from God ,but Jesus the son of God came down to allow us to change our actions and by doing so reconnect with God his and our father and God ,through his blood ,

    do you agree with this ?

    #818083
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
    • Total replies 18,562

    I agree. But our old nature cannot change. The son of God came to give those in Adam the chance to partake in a new nature, i.e., divine nature. We are born from above, born of the spirit. This new birth makes us a new creation.

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 113 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account