Reason and Religion

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:54)

John also says that Jesus did not cry or asked to be saved: John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Hi BD,

So you agree then that the Apostle John gives an account
of Jesus words concerning his crucifixion; correct?

B'shem
YHVH

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:46)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,10:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:12) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 12 2012,06:07) Bod is correct. Paul was not even sure that there ever was a human Jesus. He only saw a vision of a spirit Jesus. Paul never even mentioned any of the miracles that Jesus performed that the other gospels described. Tim The funny thing about Paul is he claimed Jesus in spirit stopped him on the road to tell him to preach to the gentiles but Jesus never told his own disciples that he sent Peter so they had to take his word for it. Paul also never mentions the Miracle birth of Jesus insisting on calling Jesus the seed of David Hi BD, As well as Jesus sending the Apostle Paul (Shaool) to the Gentiles, we also have YHVH's account… Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. “and were forbidden of the HolySpirit to preach “the word” in Asia” (Acts 16:6) You need to be a bit more honest when presenting “God's word”; BD! B'shem (in the Name of) YHVH (the everlasting God) What do you mean? Jesus said: Go not to the gentiles I do believe Jesus has been a light to the gentiles but he himself said he came particularly for Israel Matthew 10:5-7 King James Version (KJV) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Hi BD, perhaps you have missed this verse?

“And the night following the Lord(Jesus) stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul:
for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:1)

B'shem
YHVH

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:10)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:54) John also says that Jesus did not cry or asked to be saved: John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Hi BD, So you agree then that the Apostle John gives an account of Jesus words concerning his crucifixion; correct? B'shem YHVH

One that contradicts the other accounts, whic is correct?

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,11:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:10) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:54) John also says that Jesus did not cry or asked to be saved: John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Hi BD, So you agree then that the Apostle John gives an account of Jesus words concerning his crucifixion; correct? B'shem YHVH One that contradicts the other accounts, whic is correct?

Hi BD,

There is “NO” significant contradiction!   ..what are you talking about?

B'shem
YHVH

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:14)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:46) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,10:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:12) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 12 2012,06:07) Bod is correct. Paul was not even sure that there ever was a human Jesus. He only saw a vision of a spirit Jesus. Paul never even mentioned any of the miracles that Jesus performed that the other gospels described. Tim The funny thing about Paul is he claimed Jesus in spirit stopped him on the road to tell him to preach to the gentiles but Jesus never told his own disciples that he sent Peter so they had to take his word for it. Paul also never mentions the Miracle birth of Jesus insisting on calling Jesus the seed of David Hi BD, As well as Jesus sending the Apostle Paul (Shaool) to the Gentiles, we also have YHVH's account… Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. “and were forbidden of the HolySpirit to preach “the word” in Asia” (Acts 16:6) You need to be a bit more honest when presenting “God's word”; BD! B'shem (in the Name of) YHVH (the everlasting God) What do you mean? Jesus said: Go not to the gentiles I do believe Jesus has been a light to the gentiles but he himself said he came particularly for Israel Matthew 10:5-7 King James Version (KJV) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Hi BD, perhaps you have missed this verse? “And the night following the Lord(Jesus) stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:1) B'shem YHVH

So how exactly did the lord stand by him? If this is true then you have just proved that Mormonism is correct

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,11:22) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:10) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,10:54) John also says that Jesus did not cry or asked to be saved: John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Hi BD, So you agree then that the Apostle John gives an account of Jesus words concerning his crucifixion; correct? B'shem YHVH One that contradicts the other accounts, whic is correct? Hi BD, There is “NO” significant contradiction!   ..what are you talking about? B'shem YHVH

If John is right then they did not ALL forsake him according to the scriptures being fulfilled

[Ed J]

Hi BD,

Do you completely lack common scene,
or are you really that 'brainwashed' by the 'book of fraud'?
They all scattered when Jesus was arrested, that is how IT WAS FULFILLED!

B'shem
YHVH

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:36)

Hi BD, Do you completely lack common scene, or are you really that 'brainwashed' by the 'book of fraud'? They all scattered when Jesus was arrested, that is how IT WAS FULFILLED! B'shem YHVH

Yes and they FLED, they did not attend the crucifixion if they had attended they would not be forsaking him would they?

Nice try though

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,11:43)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:36) Hi BD, Do you completely lack common scene, or are you really that 'brainwashed' by the 'book of fraud'? They all scattered when Jesus was arrested, that is how IT WAS FULFILLED! B'shem YHVH Yes and they FLED, they did not attend the crucifixion if they had attended they would not be forsaking him would they? Nice try though

Hi BD,

THEY FORSOOK HIM WHEN THEY FLED, GOT IT!  
This is my Pierre impersonation. Ha ha!

B'shem
YHVH

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,17:30)

Was John really at the cross as he said or did ALL the disciples forsake him and fled like Matthew and Mark says?

They fled the hill from which Jesus was taken captive, right?

Is there scripture that says they never came close to him again? Obviously not, for after Peter fled, he followed and hung around outside the house of the priest, right?

Asana, here is the fact of the matter:

Peter, the disciple upon whose revelation Jesus said he would build his church, says that Jesus died and was raised from the dead.

Mohammad says Jesus didn't die, and wasn't raised from the dead.

Who will you believe? Because it can't be both of them. And trying to find discrepancies between the various disciple's testimonies will not undo the fact that MANY scriptures and MANY writers say Jesus died, while Mohammad says he didn't.

This is not a case of describing the same event from different perspectives. This is a case of the very foundation of the Greek scriptures – Jesus died to atone for our sins – being directly contradicted by a mere man who lived hundreds of years later.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:50)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,11:43) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:36) Hi BD, Do you completely lack common scene, or are you really that 'brainwashed' by the 'book of fraud'? They all scattered when Jesus was arrested, that is how IT WAS FULFILLED! B'shem YHVH Yes and they FLED, they did not attend the crucifixion if they had attended they would not be forsaking him would they? Nice try though Hi BD, THEY FORSOOK HIM WHEN THEY FLED, GOT IT!   This is my Pierre impersonation. Ha ha! B'shem YHVH

Do you know what forsake means?

to quit or leave entirely; abandon; desert

You are not abandoning someone if you are right there with them.

Why don't you just tell the truth and say you don't understand? John is clearly stating that he did not forsake Jesus that not only was he there at the crucifixion but he was bold enough to be right next to the Mother of Jesus not afraid at all and that Jesus basically told Mary now this is your son. This is the total opposite of forsaking someone it is total 100% commitment so if John is correct the others and the scripture is not correct because according to John he did not forsake Jesus

[terraricca]

Mike

bod says;;

Quote

No, I believe them both according to what they knew?

but what bod means is WHAT HE BELIEVE THEY KNEW, ahahaha

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,12:02)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,17:30) Was John really at the cross as he said or did ALL the disciples forsake him and fled like Matthew and Mark says? They fled the hill from which Jesus was taken captive, right? Is there scripture that says they never came close to him again?  Obviously not, for after Peter fled, he followed and hung around outside the house of the priest, right? Asana, here is the fact of the matter: Peter, the disciple upon whose revelation Jesus said he would build his church, says that Jesus died and was raised from the dead. Mohammad says Jesus didn't die, and wasn't raised from the dead. Who will you believe?  Because it can't be both of them.  And trying to find discrepancies between the various disciple's testimonies will not undo the fact that MANY scriptures and MANY writers say Jesus died, while Mohammad says he didn't. This is not a case of describing the same event from different perspectives.  This is a case of the very foundation of the Greek scriptures – Jesus died to atone for our sins – being directly contradicted by a mere man who lived hundreds of years later.

Hi Mike

Wrong approach because Muhammad agrees that they thought Jesus was crucified so obviously if they thought that wasthe case that would be their report. Where in the “Gospels according to” say that this was written down by the command of God? Where does one of these gospels start by saying the Lord said “write”?

Peter did not stay and he did completely forsake Jesus

Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the #### crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

It is obvious that they were fearing for their life and they did not attend the crucifixion and as far as trusting Peter to tell the truth Jesus trusted that he would lie and he was right, right?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 12 2012,12:08)

Mike bod says;; Quote No, I believe them both according to what they knew? but what bod means is WHAT HE BELIEVE THEY KNEW,  ahahaha Pierre

Exactly, can you report more than you think you know?

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,12:06)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,11:43) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:36) Hi BD, Do you completely lack common scene, or are you really that 'brainwashed' by the 'book of fraud'? They all scattered when Jesus was arrested, that is how IT WAS FULFILLED! B'shem YHVH Yes and they FLED, they did not attend the crucifixion if they had attended they would not be forsaking him would they? Nice try though Hi BD, THEY FORSOOK HIM WHEN THEY FLED, GOT IT!   This is my Pierre impersonation. Ha ha! B'shem YHVH Do you know what forsake means? to quit or leave entirely; abandon; desert You are not abandoning someone if you are right there with them. Why don't you just tell the truth and say you don't understand? John is clearly stating that he did not forsake Jesus that not only was he there at the crucifixion but he was bold enough to be right next to the Mother of Jesus not afraid at all and that Jesus basically told Mary now this is your son. This is the total opposite of forsaking someone it is total 100% commitment so if John is correct the others and the scripture is not correct because according to John he did not forsake Jesus

Hi BD,

Please address Mike's point about how Peter was right there too.

B'shem
YHVH

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,12:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,12:06) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,11:43) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,11:36) Hi BD, Do you completely lack common scene, or are you really that 'brainwashed' by the 'book of fraud'? They all scattered when Jesus was arrested, that is how IT WAS FULFILLED! B'shem YHVH Yes and they FLED, they did not attend the crucifixion if they had attended they would not be forsaking him would they? Nice try though Hi BD, THEY FORSOOK HIM WHEN THEY FLED, GOT IT!   This is my Pierre impersonation. Ha ha! B'shem YHVH Do you know what forsake means? to quit or leave entirely; abandon; desert You are not abandoning someone if you are right there with them. Why don't you just tell the truth and say you don't understand? John is clearly stating that he did not forsake Jesus that not only was he there at the crucifixion but he was bold enough to be right next to the Mother of Jesus not afraid at all and that Jesus basically told Mary now this is your son. This is the total opposite of forsaking someone it is total 100% commitment so if John is correct the others and the scripture is not correct because according to John he did not forsake Jesus Hi BD, Please address Mike's point about how Peter was right there too. B'shem YHVH

I did, Peter wasn't there he went out and wept bitterly, no one was there according to the scriptures that must have been fulfilled.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:12)

Hi Mike Wrong approach because Muhammad agrees that they thought Jesus was crucified so obviously if they thought that wasthe case that would be their report.

Mark 9:31
He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”

This one isn't a vision, Asana.  It is the directly quoted words of Jesus himself, before he was KILLED.  It is supported by Luke in 9:22, and by all the gospel writers.

Are the words of Jesus himself good enough?  Or do you still assert that Jesus only thought he was going to die, and therefore the scriptures are a lie?

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:12)

It is obvious that they were fearing for their life and they did not attend the crucifixion………

It is most certainly NOT obvious that they did not attend the crucifixion, for John says he was there.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:12)

……..and as far as trusting Peter to tell the truth Jesus trusted that he would lie and he was right, right?

You've got to be kidding me, Asana.  So now the only NT words that are reliable are the ones Mohammad agrees with?  

What criteria do you use to decide when Peter was telling the truth in scripture, and when he was lying?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:22)

I did, Peter wasn't there he went out and wept bitterly, no one was there according to the scriptures that must have been fulfilled.

I think Ed meant in light of your claim that they all fled, and therefore couldn't have come back later.

The fact that Peter DID come back to Jesus after he fled refutes your “proof” that none of them attended the crucifixion.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,12:23)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:12) Hi Mike Wrong approach because Muhammad agrees that they thought Jesus was crucified so obviously if they thought that wasthe case that would be their report. Mark 9:31 He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.” This one isn't a vision, Asana.  It is the directly quoted words of Jesus himself, before he was KILLED.  It is supported by Luke in 9:22, and by all the gospel writers. Are the words of Jesus himself good enough?  Or do you still assert that Jesus only thought he was going to die, and therefore the scriptures are a lie? Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:12) It is obvious that they were fearing for their life and they did not attend the crucifixion……… It is most certainly NOT obvious that they did not attend the crucifixion, for John says he was there. Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:12) ……..and as far as trusting Peter to tell the truth Jesus trusted that he would lie and he was right, right? You've got to be kidding me, Asana.  So now the only NT words that are reliable are the ones Mohammad agrees with?   What criteria do you use to decide when Peter was telling the truth in scripture, and when he was lying?

Jesus could have very well accepted the idea he would die. Jesus also thought that:

Matthew 10:23
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

You do understand that they certainly reached all the cities of Israel and Jesus has not yet returned, right?

Otherwise ED is right and Jesus has already returned at pentecost if this is correct you should really start taking him seriously

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,12:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:22) I did, Peter wasn't there he went out and wept bitterly, no one was there according to the scriptures that must have been fulfilled. I think Ed meant in light of your claim that they all fled, and therefore couldn't have come back later. The fact that Peter DID come back to Jesus after he fled refutes your “proof” that none of them attended the crucifixion.

How did Peter come back to Jesus, The next time they saw Jesus they were scared and thought they were seeing a ghost but Jesus reassured them that HE WAS NOT A GHOST and that HE WAS FLESH AND BONE he was like it's me I'M NOT DEAD and I'M HUNGRY

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