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Gadam,
You are either a deceiver or deceived!
Who is a liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Messiah?
The person who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist. 1 John 2:22Hi Danny, Please don’t post such personalised messages on this thread. If you can please discuss on the subject matter of the thread.
Thank you.
Danny…..Adam is just showing us possible translation discrepancies in our texts, written by different scholars, he is not saying that is his “own” views . He is just presenting them. I personally have also found discrepancies in our text years ago.
Here is an example, Years ago I was reading the parable of the unjust Judge. Jesus said there was,
Luk 18:2-8
picking up at verse 5…..Yet because this widow troubles me, I will avenge her, least by her continual coming she weary me. (6) and the Lord said said , hear what the “unjust” Judge said, (7) and shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, (THOUGH) he bear long with them?
(8) l tell you that he will aligned them ” speedily” nevertheless when the son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?
The word “though”. Should be “Will” , I searched it out afterwards and I found that it was wrong, and found out that word should be , “will” , another words “will” God put you off, like the unjust Judge did? The response of God to you is what gives you your true Faith in him.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Danny…..the word (aligned) above . Should be (avenge) , sorry for the misspell. Danny remember a lot of the real scholars work from the actual documents found over the years, rather then religious opinions. There are really miss spelled, miss quoted, and miss translated words written in our present translations. Remember what Jesus said, “many will come in my name saying I am the Christ and deceive “many”.
So seek, ask, and knock for the “Spirit of truth” to guide you mind brother.peace and love to you and yours………gene
Gene…..I read Adam’s posts.
He clearly denies that Jesus is the Messiah.
Why do you defend him?
I don’t understand you at all.John 3:13-17
…..no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gavehis only begotten Son,
that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not believe in the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)
gadam: Again you made me laugh. Thanks for that. I don’t know where from you get these strange ideas. Do you think Enoch and Elijah were standing in the crowd when Jesus was uttering the above saying?
gadam, if you read my post, you’d know the answer to your own asinine question. Let me dumb it down for you:
In scripture, two men (Enoch and Elijah) did not suffer death. Jesus said there would be others (as in NOT Enoch and Elijah) who wouldn’t taste death. My understanding is that these others ( as in NOT Enoch and Elijah) are those who are now under the altar in heaven, awaiting God’s judgment of their brutal deaths for staying true to the word of God and the testimony of His Christ. So no, I don’t think Enoch and Elijah were standing in the crowd… and anyone with a 3rd grade education would be able to see that from my post.
Danny Dabbs: Gadam, You are either a deceiver or deceived!
Agreed. He ran away from a discussion in the “Word” thread… inviting me to this thread as he ran. So I came and commented here, and he hits me with the same “Lol” BS that he used in the other thread. Lame. 🙄🙄🙄
Hey gadam, just so you know, “Ha ha” isn’t a valid response or rebuttal. You’re dealing with intelligent students of scripture on this site. I suggest you either up your game or go peddle your antichrist crap elsewhere. Nobody here is buying what you’re selling.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
and 1 Cor 15:
51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die,[m] but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
You view WE as the people that Paul is addressing. And you would be correct. But Paul is also addressing all Believers who read his letter and not just at that moment in time. In fact he is addressing even non-Believers today, like yourself.
Considering that we are clearly taught that no man not even the Son knows the day or the hour, it becomes clear that only the Father knows the time of the return. That should be a big clue for you. In God’s own wisdom, he has held this day back for at least 2000 years and who knows for how much longer, (God knows). And do we not read the very thing you are protesting about?
2 Peter 3:3-7
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.Now back to the two verses you quoted.
Read them again. These words are still true. Read this part slowly:
“we who are alive, who are left,”
Thus it is clear from this that people will pass away before this happens. It doesn’t actually say how many people will pass away does it? It doesn’t even say that it will be in the next few years or so.
So of course, if this is all true, there will indeed be some who have not passed away and will see this happen by reason of the fact that there will be people still alive when this happens. Simple.
Hi Mike,
You:
In scripture, two men (Enoch and Elijah) did not suffer death. Jesus said there would be others (as in NOT Enoch and Elijah) who wouldn’t taste death. My understanding is that these others ( as in NOT Enoch and Elijah) are those who are now under the altar in heaven, awaiting God’s judgment of their brutal deaths for staying true to the word of God and the testimony of His Christ. So no, I don’t think Enoch and Elijah were standing in the crowd… and anyone with a 3rd grade education would be able to see that from my post.
Me: Where from you get such strange ideas like comparing the audience of Jesus to Enoch and Elijah that would not taste death like them. I don’t find any logic in these new inventions of yours. Please come out straight on your point when I was arguing on the statement of Jesus as quoted by the Gospel writer;
Matt 24:
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
The generation Jesus was talking was the audience standing with him. I don’t think any future audience involved in this simple statement.
You:
Agreed. He ran away from a discussion in the “Word” thread… inviting me to this thread as he ran. So I came and commented here, and he hits me with the same “Lol” BS that he used in the other thread. Lame.
Hey gadam, just so you know, “Ha ha” isn’t a valid response or rebuttal. You’re dealing with intelligent students of scripture on this site. I suggest you either up your game or go peddle your antichrist crap elsewhere. Nobody here is buying what you’re selling.
Me: I didn’t ran away my friend in fact I wanted to bring the arguments on to the appropriate thread. Yes I am dealing with the so called biased intelligent students. I am on the neutral ground and understanding the scriptures without any bias. So prove your self that Jesus was the true Messiah on my other thread ” Was Jesus Jewish Messiah”
Thank you…..Adam
Let’s look at what Jesus said more closely. It seems obvious that what Jesus is saying is going to take some time to be fulfilled. I will colour the parts that obviously cannot take place immediately or in the short-term. Clearly, you will see that Jesus was talking about a longer period of time than you are making out gadam.
Luke 21:7-32
7 They asked Him questions, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” 8 And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and revolts, do not be alarmed; for these things must take place first, but the end will not follow immediately.”
10 Then He continued by saying to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, 11 and there will be massive earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrible sights and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, turning you over to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors on account of My name. 13 It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; 15 for I will provide you eloquence and wisdom which none of your adversaries will be able to oppose or refute. 16 But you will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, other relatives, and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all people because of My name. 18 And yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting from fear and the expectation of the things that are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
29 And He told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees: 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 31 So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
Hi Proclaimer,
Let’s look at what Jesus said more closely. It seems obvious that what Jesus is saying is going to take some time to be fulfilled. I will colour the parts that obviously cannot take place immediately or in the short-term. Clearly, you will see that Jesus was talking about a longer period of time than you are making out gadam.
One thing we have to remember that we don’t have the original sayings of Jesus as per the NT Scholars. The writers of Matthew and Luke copied from Mark. The narrations and saying were developed after so many years of the actual events taken place. The Gospels were not the oldest writings in the NT. We know little about the historical Jesus from the writings of Paul.
Even if we take these verses on their face value, every thing is possible to assume that Jesus was talking about the immediate future of his time I mean the generation of his audience. If we take the events of 70 CE, it is quite possible to assume the prophetic imagination of Mark 13, Matt 24 and Luke 21. The Apocalyptic imagination like falling stars and breath taking signs in the sky are nothing new if we see the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah etc. I still feel all your red marked so called signs were all possible in the historic breath taking events of 70 CE in Jerusalem and known geographical jurisdiction of Jesus’ disciples.
gadam: Hi Mike,
Please come out straight on your point when I was arguing on the statement of Jesus as quoted by the Gospel writer;
Matt 24:
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
The generation Jesus was talking was the audience standing with him. I don’t think any future audience involved in this simple statement.
gadam, what event would signify a particular generation passing away? It would be the moment that the last person of everyone who was alive when the words were said finally died. For example, the so-called “Generation X” (or the Baby Boomer’s generation if you prefer) does not pass away until the very last Generation X’er or Baby Boomer dies.
So the scripture above is saying nothing different than, “some of those standing here will not taste death…”. The fact that some of those standing there have not tasted death (but went from life on earth to live in heaven under the altar) means that this particular generation has not yet (even today) passed away.
gadam: One thing we have to remember that we don’t have the original sayings of Jesus as per the NT Scholars.
What do you offer as proof of the above statement?
Hi Mike,
gadam: One thing we have to remember that we don’t have the original sayings of Jesus as per the NT Scholars.
What do you offer as proof of the above statement?You want proof on what NT scholars had already proved? You can read any book like “Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why” is a book by Bart D. Ehrman or the “The history of Christianity” by Paula Fredriksen.
Authors such as Raymond Brown point out that the Gospels contradict each other in various important respects and on various important details. W. D. Davies and E. P. Sanders state that: “on many points, especially about Jesus’ early life, the evangelists were ignorant … they simply did not know and, guided by rumour, hope or supposition, did the best they could”
“The gospels are very peculiar types of literature. They’re not biographies,” says Prof. Paula Fredriksen, “they are a kind of religious advertisement. What they do is proclaim their individual author’s interpretation of the Christian message through the device of using Jesus of Nazareth as a spokesperson for the evangelists’ position.”
Each of the four gospels depicts Jesus in a different way. These characterizations reflect the past experiences and the particular circumstances of their authors’ communities. The historical evidence suggests that Mark wrote for a community deeply affected by the failure of the First Jewish Revolt against Rome. Matthew wrote for a Jewish community in conflict with the Pharisaic Judaism that dominated Jewish life in the postwar period. Luke wrote for a predominately Gentile audience eager to demonstrate that Christian beliefs in no way conflicted with their ability to serve as a good citizen of the Empire.
Despite these differences, all four gospels contain the “passion narrative,” the central story of Jesus’ suffering and death. That story is directly connected to the Christian ritual of the Eucharist. As Helmut Koester has observed, the ritual cannot “live” without the story.
While the gospels tell a story about Jesus, they also reflect the growing tensions between Christians and Jews. By the time Luke composed his work, tension was breaking into open hostility. By the time John was written, the conflict had become an open rift, reflected in the vituperative invective of the evangelist’s language. In the words of Prof. Eric Meyers, “Most of the gospels reflect a period of disagreement, of theological disagreement. And the New Testament tells a story of a broken relationship, and that’s part of the sad story that evolves between Jews and Christians, because it is a story that has such awful repercussions in later times.”
Hope this will answer your query.
Hi Mike,
gadam, what event would signify a particular generation passing away? It would be the moment that the last person of everyone who was alive when the words were said finally died. For example, the so-called “Generation X” (or the Baby Boomer’s generation if you prefer) does not pass away until the very last Generation X’er or Baby Boomer dies.
So the scripture above is saying nothing different than, “some of those standing here will not taste death…”. The fact that some of those standing there have not tasted death (but went from life on earth to live in heaven under the altar) means that this particular generation has not yet (even today) passed away.
You again play with your strange ideas on simple statements “the generation of Jesus’ audience” and your wild imagination of “The fact that some of those standing there have not tasted death (but went from life on earth to live in heaven under the altar) means that this particular generation has not yet (even today) passed away”
I am not going to take these tricky ideas of yours. You can imagine any thing.
Hi Proclaimer,
“I know this is not the thread for arguing such theological Dogma. I don’t think Jesus was meant about these man made Pandemics. He was talking to the First Century crowds in their own context. Even if you take the latest Apocalyptic book Revelation it never talks about future times. All its imagery and symbols like horses, swords etc were all about its own time period the First and Second Centuries.”
That is not correct gadam. It was specifically about the end of the age. Yes Jesus predicted the siege of Jerusalem and some events that would take place before the end, even in the first century. He even said, that it wouldn’t be the end yet, then tells of signs that would signify that.
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
As for the Book of Revelation, it is your decision to not hear the words of the prophecy.
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
I have brought your arguments on the ‘end of the age’ from ‘Truth about Corona’ thread to this thread.
If you see the context of Matt 24:1-2, it is not talking about the End of the age.
1 As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 Then he asked them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.”
I feel it may be the assumption of the Gospel writer that Jesus was talking about the End of the age. In fact the context of Jesus’ words was only the Second Temple and it’s coming fate in the Jewish war with Romans. Some Christian interpreters like Preterists even claim that the end of the age is the fate of Jewish generation standing with Jesus. But that is not my assumption.
Please see the text of Mark 13:
1 As he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large buildings!” 2 Then Jesus asked him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.”
3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign that all these things are about to be accomplished?”
This writer not included the clause “End of the age” in the disciples’ question to Jesus. So I think that the writer of Matthew who copied Mark and would have added these words in his text.
This is the reason why I doubt the integrity of these NT writers. The so called sayings of Jesus are the developed sayings by these writers after decades of the actual events taken place.
Coming to the book of Revelation, the so called prophecy of this writer quoted by you;
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
It is purely his popularization of his book to his readers. When he claimed “the time is near” did he mean indefinite time? What did these NT writers including Paul mean “the time is short and near”?
These are all speculations on part of Christianity today stating that our NT is talking about 21st Century and beyond. I find lot of holes in these assumptions.
Please think over.
These are all speculations on part of Christianity today stating that our NT is talking about 21st Century and beyond. I find lot of holes in these assumptions.
Please think over.
Gadam
If you KNEW HOW AWAY YOU ARE FROM THE COUNT, YOU WOULD BE SCARED ….
GOD HELP YOUParousia in the books of the New Testament:
The teaching of St. Paul on the Parousia has been considered in my earlier posts. Other NT literature is here discussed on the basis of the commonly accepted chronology, Mark (c. 65–70), Luke (c. 75), Matthew (75–85), 2 Peter (probably 80–100). The Johannine writings and Revelation are discussed separately.
In Mark. Although actual data on the Parousia is slight in Mark’s Gospel, the conception is undeniably present (Mk 8.38; 13.26; 14.62). Its setting in the discourse on the destruction of the Temple (Mk 13.26) has provoked extensive discussion among scholars on the origin of the discourse as a whole and in particular on the authenticity of Mk 13.24–27, a series of verses apocalyptic in style. It is generally agreed that Mark ch. 13 is a composition that incorporates words spoken by Jesus on different occasions into a unit centering on the theme of the destruction of the Temple. All that is said in the discourse on this point is stated to be proximate in time (13.28–31), i.e., it is to occur within the period of the first Christian generation. It is this clear assertion that has produced the question concerning the authenticity of Mk 13.24–27, since these verses can be understood to forecast the occurrence of the Parousia immediately upon the destruction of the Temple.
Beginning with the work of Timothée Colani (1824–88), Jésus Christ et les croyances messianiques de son temps (1864), many scholars (including the Catholic M. J. Lagrange) have sided with Colani in judging Mk 13.24–27 to be of Judaeo-Christian origin rather than a record of the teaching of Jesus. Two arguments are advanced for this opinion, namely, that Jesus was not guilty of error and that He never spoke in apocalyptic language. Recent scholars, however, have recognized the arbitrary character of the opinion that Jesus never employed apocalyptic language. There is in fact nothing in Mk 13.24–27 that could not have been uttered by Jesus Himself. Apart from the problem of attributing error to Him when Mk 13.24–27 is understood in the sense of chronological time, it is necessary to question the assumption that the passage is concerned solely with chronological time. Like all biblical writers, Mark proposes salvation history, i.e., the salvific acts of God within history. When Mk 13.24–27 is interpreted from this standpoint, the evangelist must be understood to say that after the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy on the destruction of the Temple, Christians are not to anticipate another messianic intervention into history until the Parousia. Mark’s passage, to be sure, does not exclude the possibility of the Parousia in the chronological sense as an immediate occurrence after the destruction; the evangelist leaves this possibility distinctly open. But his position on the proximity of the Parousia is no stronger than that of St. Paul in 1 Thes 4.12–18. The evidence of the Pauline epistles, outlined above, shows clearly enough that the early Church commonly entertained the possibility of a proximate Parousia. The Gospel of Mark remains within this tradition. Whereas St. Paul had occasion to inculcate the time sequence— resurrection first and then the Parousia—Mark advances the sequence—the destruction first, and then, as the next messianic intervention of God, the (possibly proximate) Parousia. (For further consideration of the position of Mark, see below on the teaching of Jesus and the Parousia.)
In Luke. Luke’s eschatological discourse (Luke ch.21) closely parallels Mark ch. 13 both in material content and in sequence of thought. Nonetheless, it contains certain ideas that show that Luke was in a position to offer some degree of clarification to the Church of his time on the relationship between the destruction of the Temple and the Parousia. As in Mark, the Lucan discourse answers two questions raised by the prophecy of Christ concerning the destruction of the Temple: the first question inquires when the destruction is to occur; and the second requests the sign by which the imminence of the event will be recognizable (cf. Lk 21.5–7 with Mk 13.1–4). The Lucan answer to the question on the sign (Lk 21.20–24) differs from Mark’s (Mk 13.14–20) in four significant respects: (1) the sign itself, a siege by armies, is on the historical level in contrast to the indeterminate biblical phrase of Mark-Matthew, “the abomination of desolation” (Dan 9.27); (2) the destruction of Jerusalem, not simply that of the Temple, is the point at issue; (3) the destruction is presented as a divine judgment against the Holy City, a conception that follows the Jewish understanding of Israel’s catastrophes (2 Kgs 9.6–9; Hos 9.7; Jer 5.29); (4) a period of time is envisioned after the destruction, described by Luke as “the times of the nations,” during which the teachings of Christ are to be offered to the Gentiles.
Luke’s counterpart (Lk 21.25–28) to the apocalyptic passage in Mk 13.24–27, expanding upon the Parousia, is set in the context of “the times of the nations” instead of the context of the destruction, as in Mark. Amid distress and fear upon the earth, the Parousia of the Son of Man occurs. During this period, the Christian is not to be disturbed; rather, he is to reflect that the fullness of the Redemption to come with the Parousia. Luke thus removes the possible relationship in time between the destruction and the Parousia that is so conspicuous in Mark. Although it is perhaps too much to say with some modern scholars that Luke eliminates the proximity of the Parousia altogether, he does disassociate it in time from the destruction of Jerusalem.
In accordance with his chronological disassociation of the destruction and the Parousia, Luke, by comparison to Mark, modifies the response of Jesus to the question on the time of the destruction (cf. Lk 21.29–33 with Mk 13.28–31). Although “all things” prophesied by Jesus are to occur before His generation has passed away (Lk 21.32), the fulfillment of the prophecies in Luke consists in the knowledge that the reign of God is near (Lk 21.31). Thus, in Luke the destruction of Jerusalem is understood as a sign of the Parousia of Christ: the fulfillment of His prophecy on the doom of Jerusalem indicates the fulfillment of His prophecy on the Parousia. Those who witness the fulfillment of the first prophecy should look to the fulfillment of the second (Lk 21.32–36). In this sense of the gradual revelation in history of God’s salvific plan, Jesus’ words are fulfilled within a single generation.
In Matthew. Matthew’s is the only one of the four Gospels to use the term παρουσία (Mt 24.3, 27, 37, 39). His use of it gives his discourse on the destruction of the Temple (Matthew ch. 24) a different orientation of thought from its parallels in Mark ch. 13 and Luke ch. 21. In Mark and Luke, Jesus is asked concerning the time of the destruction and for a sign by which the imminence of the event will be recognizable. In Matthew the question on the time of the destruction remains. However, the request of the disciples for a sign pertains, not to the destruction, but to “your Parousia and the end of the age [το[symbol omitted] αἰ[symbol omitted]νος, aeon]” (Mt 24.3b). Unlike the discourse in Mark ch. 13 and Luke ch.21, Matthew ch. 24 treats explicitly a question that is only implicit in Mark and Luke: whether or not the proximity of the Parousia, and therefore of the end of natural human history, is to be recognized by a sign.
Although the question of the time of the end is the main one for Matthew ch. 24, the evangelist has retained the traditional question on the time of the destruction of the Temple (Mt 24.3a) as well as the traditional material that responds to it (Mt 24.4–26). This material has substantially the same meaning as in Mk 13.5–23: it pertains to the destruction of the Temple, warning against false messiahs and false signs, forecasting persecution, demanding perseverance, and advising flight upon the appearance of the “abomination of desolation.” However, to the Marcan warnings against false messiahs and false prophets (cf. Mk 13.21–23 with Mt 24.23–26), Matthew adds two sayings of Jesus (Mt 24.27–28) to the effect that the Parousia will be unannounced (v. 27) and will be inevitably recognized by all people (v. 28). He thereby strengthens the teaching of Mk 13.21–23 that after the destruction, no messianic intervention other than the Parousia is to be expected.
Matthew’s apocalyptic passage (Mt 24.29–31) parallel to Mk 13.24–27, elaborating upon the Parousia, is introduced by the word εὐθέως (immediately). As in Mark, the evangelist’s thought is best comprehended in terms of salvation history: in the divine, salvific plan the Parousia is the only messianic intervention to be anticipated as following upon the destruction. The entire human race is to recognize the presence of the Son of Man, and the last judgment is to occur.
Up to this point in the discourse (Mt 24.4–31), Matthew, as Mark, asserts the destruction of the Temple and the Parousia, but does not address himself to the questions concerning the time of the destruction and the sign of the Parousia. He now does so (Mt 24.32–36), utilizing, however, traditional material, found also in Mk 13.28–32: as the fig tree in bloom indicates the nearness of summer, so the fulfillment in history of the prophecies of Jesus (Mt 24.33) is “the sign of [His] parousia and of the end of the age” (Mt 24.3b). The fulfillment in history can only refer to the destruction of the Temple, since the day and the hour of the Parousia itself is a secret held by the Father alone (Mt 24.36). For Matthew the destruction of the Temple is the theological sign of the Parousia, but not its chronological sign. The time of the Parousia is a divine secret that the Father did not reveal even to the Son. Whereas in Mark the Parousia is left in possible chronological proximity to the destruction of the Temple, and whereas in Luke it is chronologically separated from the destruction of Jerusalem, in Matthew the stress is on the mystery enshrouding the time of the event.
Historical Teaching of Jesus. Scholars of the Gospels are not in agreement that Jesus actually taught the Parousia during His lifetime. Numerous passages in the Gospels attribute sayings to Him concerning “the coming [ἔρχομαι]” of the Son of Man (Mk 8.38; 13.26;14.26; Lk 9.26; 12.40; 18.8; 21.27; Mt 10.23; 16.27;24.30, 44; 25.31; 26.64). The interpretation of these sayings is rendered difficult by the fact that the Gospel tradition has not always conserved their original historical context. Either the evangelists or the tradition before them have, to a degree, reinterpreted some of these sayings in the light of the early Church’s fuller understanding of Jesus’ mission. From the critical standpoint, two sound points of departure for the interpretation of these sayings can be indicated: (1) in 1 Thes 4.15 St. Paul asserts that he bases his statements about the Parousia on “the word of the Lord,” i.e., on the historical teaching of Jesus; (2) the passages indicated in the parenthesis above have in common the doctrine of the “coming [ἔρχομαι]” of the Son of Man. These facts reveal that there is no ground to deny a priori that the Parousia originated in the historical teaching of Jesus. On the other hand, one must ascertain carefully whether Jesus taught this doctrine explicitly or merely contented Himself with providing a foundation for the Church’s later comprehension of it.
The most significant passage for the understanding of Jesus’ historical teaching on the Parousia is the statement He made at His trial before the Sanhedrin as quoted in Mk 14.62 (see also Mt 26.64): “You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Although scholars of the Gospels concede that the saying is substantially historical, they are not in accord on the meaning Jesus intended to convey. For some scholars Jesus here declared not only His Resurrection, but also His Parousia. For others He simply affirmed that He would be vindicated by being brought to God upon His execution. Interpretation of the saying must take into consideration its prophetic character. Prophecy is frequently obscure in its content at the time it is uttered. Only through the development of events and the evaluation of the prophecy in the light of other religious doctrines is its true significance comprehended. Thus the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ (cf. the exaltation of Jesus in Phil 2.9), as well as His headship of the new messianic community (cf. Acts2.36), provide a fuller comprehension of His saying in Mk 14.62 than was possible when He made the statement historically. St. Paul’s allusion in 1 Thes 4.15 to the historical teaching of Jesus on the Parousia finds its minimal justification in the fact that Jesus spoke of the “coming” of the Son of Man that would have future and final relevance, not only to His own disciples, but also to the entire world. The recollection of such sayings is embodied in Mk 8.38 and Mt 25.31–32.
Jesus’ historical teaching insisted upon vigilance in preparation for “that day” (Mk 13.33–37; Mt 24.42–51; Lk 21.34–36), i.e., the time of final judgment, and He declared His own ignorance of the time of the event (cf. Mk 13.32 with Mt 24.36). St. Paul sets forth the same doctrine (1 Thes 5.1–2) as well known to the Thessalonians. It would seem, then, that the historical teaching of Jesus Himself compelled the early Church to entertain the possibility of an imminent Parousia, since nothing in the Lord’s teaching excluded this possibility. Such an orientation of thought in the primitive Church forced it to focus its attention on the person of Jesus and His teaching, and to a considerable degree it was responsible for the development of the material on Jesus and His teaching that made possible the composition of the four Gospels.
In the Johannine Literature and Revelation. The only explicit reference to the Parousia in the Johannine literature (1, 2, 3 John Epistles and John’s Gospel) lies in 1 Jn 2.28, which expresses a Christian hope concerning the presence of Christ as judge not unsimilar to 1 Thes 2.10. Elsewhere in 1 John the doctrine of the Parousia seems clearly to be assumed (1 Jn 3.2) or can be inferred from statements about the antichrist (2.18; 4.3). No mention is made of the doctrine in 2 and 3 John, but 2 John does speak of the Antichrist (2 Jn 7).
The Fourth Gospel does not employ the term παρουσία. Neither does it utilize the figure of the Son of Man to depict a presence of the risen Christ in history that will terminate the course of human events. The Gospel begins and ends by placing its central figure, “the Anointed One, the Son of God. The prologue (1.1–18) names Him the logos, preexistent, who entered the world by becoming Incarnate (1.14). The remainder of the Gospel conceives His life as a passage through suffering, death, and Resurrection to the realm of the Father (12.32; 20.17). The significance of the divine origin, earthly career, and final glorification of Jesus for Christians is not spelled out in the Fourth Gospel in terms of the Parousia, but rather in terms of a union with Christ that has its beginning in the Christian’s earthly existence (3.3; 4.10; 6.53; 15.1) and its terminus in a life that will transcend the bonds of human mortality (3.15; 4.14; 6.54; 14.2). This presentation of Christian faith as a supernatural union with Christ, the Son of God, that begins in mortal human existence and ends in a superterrestrial sharing in the divine life draws out the ultimate significance of the doctrine of the Parousia. The Parousia is the logical presupposition of such Johannine statements as the following: “The Father loves the Son and has handed all things over to him. Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath” (3.35–36); “I solemnly assure you, an hour is coming and is now here when the dead shall hear the voice of God’s Son, and those who have listened shall live” (Jn 5.25); “And when I do go and prepare a place for you, I am coming back to take you along with me so that where I am, you may also be” (Jn 14.3). In these passages, the Christian life is conceived as an anticipation of the Parousia.
Revelation, like the Fourth Gospel, rather presupposes the doctrine of the Parousia than inculcates it. At the outset of the work, the risen and ascended Jesus is described symbolically as existing along with God (Rv1.13–16). From this position, He addresses messages to the seven churches (2.1–3.22), in the course of which perseverance in the Christian faith is urged until His coming (2.25). The coming is directed especially against persecutors of Christians (6.10) and is described in 6.15–17 in terms reminiscent of Lk 23.30. The coming on behalf of the just is taken up from Rv 19.11 to the conclusion of the work. Here the Parousia is explicitly announced as part of the divine irrevocable plan: “And behold, I am coming quickly” (22.7). This assertion is repeated at the end of the book, together with the author’s prayer affirming his firm conviction of the coming and requesting that it take place in accordance with God’s design: “Amen. Come, Lord Jesus” (22.20). Revelation is clearly the product of the persecutions experienced by the early Church, especially under Nero (c. 54–68) and Domitian (c. 81–96). Its author, writing probably during the reign of Domitian, utilized the Church’s doctrine of the Parousia to encourage the faith of Christians in these dire circumstances.
Delay of the Parousia. Criticism of the Christian doctrine of the Parousia is reflected in 2 Pt 3.3–10, a late epistle dating probably after c. 80 may be in the early 2nd Century. The criticism consists in ridicule of the doctrine on the ground that the Parousia has not materialized (3.4). The objection presupposes a Christian expectancy of an early Parousia. However, neither the source of the criticism nor the concrete circumstances of it is ascertainable. The author of the Epistle responds by invoking the creative power of the word of God (3.5), the punitive power of His word (3.6), and the difference between the human conception of time and the working out of God’s design in history (3.7–8). He reassures his Christian readers that the non-occurrence of the Parousia is not evidence against the truth of the doctrine but rather an indication of the divine mercy still bent on the repentance of humankind (3.9). Finally, he reasserts the doctrine, stressing that the occurrence of the Parousia will be unanticipated because of its suddenness and that this event will terminate human history as humans have known it (3.10).
Some scholars have urged that the Gospel of Luke is preoccupied with the question of the so-called delay of the Parousia. They appeal to such passages as Lk 12.45, which speaks of a delay in the return of a householder, and 19.12, which describes a man embarking upon a long journey (see also 20.9). It remains possible that the Gospel of Luke anticipated a problem that arose among some early Christians when the Parousia failed to materialize; but many think that these passages can be understood also as parabolic detail that has no intentional reference to the Christian expectancy of a proximate Parousia.
One thing we have to remember that we don’t have the original sayings of Jesus as per the NT Scholars. The writers of Matthew and Luke copied from Mark. The narrations and saying were developed after so many years of the actual events taken place. The Gospels were not the oldest writings in the NT. We know little about the historical Jesus from the writings of Paul.
God set up his Church. The Church recorded this and passed it on. The platforms that are owned by the god of this age would probably not be the smartest place to let God’s revelation be exclusively distributed. Yes, it makes sense that God would trust the body that he setup himself.
Further, if your comment was taken seriously, then to apply it, all history would have be ignored on account that there are no living witnesses left. That said, there are millions maybe billions that have a personal testimony or faith that testifies to these things. I certainly have. It’s a living faith that we have.
Jesus an Eschatological Prophet?
The context of Jesus’ career
Good historical information about Jesus can be acquired by establishing the overall context of his public ministry. As noted earlier, he began his career by being baptized by John, an eschatological prophet, and an understanding of eschatology is pivotal to interpreting Jesus’ world. Although eschatology is the doctrine of last things, the Jews who anticipated future redemption did not expect the end of the world. Instead, they thought that God would intervene in human history and make the world perfect: that is, the Jews would live in the Holy Land free of foreign domination and in peace and prosperity. Many Jews, including John, expected final judgment to precede this golden age, and he taught that people should repent in view of its imminence (Matthew 3:1–12; Luke 3:3–9). Since Jesus accepted John’s baptism, he must have agreed with this message, at least in part. After Jesus’ death and Resurrection, his followers believed that he would soon return to bring in the kingdom of God. The clearest expression of this belief is offered by Paul, whose earliest letter indicates that the Lord will return before most of the people then alive die (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18). If Jesus began his career by being baptized by an eschatological prophet and if after his Crucifixion his followers expected him to return to save them (1 Thessalonians 1:9–10; 1 Corinthians 15:20–28), it is highly probable that he himself shared the basic views of Jewish eschatology.Many aspects of Jesus’ career support the view that he expected divine intervention. One of the most common beliefs of Jewish eschatology was that God would restore the Twelve Tribes of Israel, including the Ten Lost Tribes. That Jesus shared this view is indicated by his call of 12 disciples, who apparently represented the 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28). Moreover, he proclaimed the arrival of the kingdom of God; he predicted the destruction of the Temple (Mark 13:2) and possibly its rebuilding “without hands” (Mark 14:58); he entered Jerusalem on a donkey, symbolizing his kingship (Mark 11:4–8; Matthew 21:1–11; see Zechariah 9:9 for the symbol); and he had a final meal with his disciples in which he said that he would “drink no more of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it in the new kingdom of God” (Mark 14:25). It is no surprise that after his death his disciples formed a small community that expected Jesus to return and inaugurate a kingdom in which the world would be transformed.
In this light, Jesus can be seen as an eschatological prophet, grouped historically in the same general category as John the Baptist and a few other 1st-century Jewish prophets, such as Theudas. Like John, Jesus believed in the coming judgment, but he stressed inclusion more than condemnation and welcomed “customs officers and sinners” in the coming kingdom of God (Matthew 11:18–19; 21:31–32). Moreover, his teaching was rich and multifaceted and was not limited to eschatological expectation.
The kingdom of God
While the Gospels agree that Jesus proclaimed the eschatological kingdom of God, they offer different versions of his view of that kingdom. One is that the kingdom of God exists in heaven and that individuals may enter it upon death (Mark 9:47). Since God’s power is in some respects omnipresent, Jesus may have seen “the kingdom,” in the sense of God’s presence, as being especially evident in his own words and deeds. The parable that the kingdom is like yeast that gradually leavens the entire loaf (Matthew 13:33) indicates that Jesus may have understood the kingdom of God to be beginning in the present. These other ways of viewing the kingdom do not, however, dominate the teaching of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels. Statements about the heavenly kingdom, or the kingdom as partially present on earth, do not negate the eschatological nature of Jesus’ message. The essence of his teaching is that the kingdom would come to earth in its full power and glory, at which time God’s will would be done “on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). Jesus died before heaven came down to earth, and this, coupled with the Resurrection appearances, led his followers to expect him to return in the near future, ushering in the kingdom and ruling in God’s stead.Jesus himself apparently anticipated the arrival of a heavenly figure whom he called “the Son of Man,” who would come on clouds of glory and gather the elect. The Hebrew Bible laid the foundation for this teaching in two ways. First, several prophets expected “the day of the Lord,” when the wicked would be punished or destroyed and the good would be spared, though the emphasis was on punishment (Amos 5:12–20; Zephaniah 1; Joel 1:15; 2:1; Obadiah verse 15). Second, Daniel 7 describes various kingdoms that are represented by four fantastic beasts, all of which are destroyed. Then, according to Daniel, the Son of Man, representing the people of Israel, ascends to God and receives “dominion and glory and kingship” (Daniel 7:14), after which Israel is to reign supreme (7:27). These passages seem to have led Jesus to depict the arrival of the Son of Man from heaven as initiating the coming judgment and the redemption of Israel. The theme appears in numerous passages in the Synoptic Gospels (see Tables 2, 3, 4, and 5).
Table 5: Preparedness Matthew 24:44 Luke 12:40Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.Table 4: Son of Man comes like lightning or the great flood Matthew 24:27, 37-39 Luke 17:24, 26, 27, 30For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man…. 37For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man.
For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day…. 26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. 27They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them…. 30t will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Table 3: Son of Man, glory of Father, angels, some will not taste death Matthew 16:27-28 Mark 8:38-9:1 Luke 9:26-27For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 9.1And he said to them, Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.
Those who are ashamed of me and of my words, of them the Son of Man will be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27But truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.
Table 2: Cosmic distress, Son of Man, angels, gather elect Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 Luke 21:25-28Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see “the Son of Man coming in clouds” with power and glory. 27Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on the earth distress among nations confused by the roaring of the sea and the waves. 26People will faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27Then they will see “the Son of Man coming in a cloud” with power and great glory. 28Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.Paul’s depiction of the coming kingdom also merits consideration (italics indicate the closest agreements with the passages in the Gospels):
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17)
Paul changed “the Son of Man” to “the Lord.” It is not known whether Jesus intended to refer to himself or to another figure when he used the term Son of Man in this context (he did refer to himself as a Son of Man in the sense of “a human being,” as in Matthew 8:20). By Paul’s time, however, Christians made no such distinction and interpreted the heavenly Son of Man as the risen Jesus.
Jesus’ belief that the Son of Man would soon arrive to usher in the kingdom is confirmed as authentic by multiple attestation. It is also “against the grain” of the Gospel According to Luke, since the author tended to downplay eschatology (e.g., Luke 17:21 and Acts, written by the same author). Moreover, Paul, whose letters are earlier than the Gospels, thought that most people then living would still be alive at the time of Jesus’ return, whereas the Synoptic Gospels state that “some standing here will not taste death.” The change from “most” to “some” probably demonstrates that the expectation was beginning to fade when the Gospels were written.
Inclusion in the kingdom
Several passages indicate that following Jesus was highly desirable for those who wished to be included in the coming kingdom. Jesus called on some people to give up everything in order to follow him (Mark 1:16–20; 10:17–31) and promised that their reward would be great in heaven. It cannot be said, however, that Jesus viewed personal loyalty as a prerequisite for inclusion in the kingdom. Often he simply urged all to fix their attention on the kingdom, not on material possessions (Matthew 6:19–21; 6:25–34; Luke 12:13–21). The majority of his teaching in the Synoptic Gospels is about God and the value of returning to him. Thus, in one parable the “prodigal son” returns to “the father,” presumably representing God (Luke 15:11–32).Perhaps faith in God and treating other people with love (Matthew 25:34–40) would suffice for entry into the kingdom. This seems to be indicated by the study of children, the childlike, the poor, the meek, the lowly, and the sinners, whom Jesus especially called and favoured. “Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs” (Mark 10:14). In the coming kingdom, moreover, the last would be first (Mark 10:31); those who held the chief positions in the present world would be demoted (Luke 14:7–11); those who gave up everything and followed Jesus would receive “a hundred-fold” (Mark 10:30); and sinners, exemplified by the customs officers and prostitutes, also would be included in the kingdom (Matthew 21:31). The Beatitudes, drawn from the Sermon on the Mount, particularly stress Jesus’ concern for the poor and the meek who will be blessed (Luke 6:20; Matthew 5:3–5). This emphasis probably rests in part on his sympathy for those of his own socioeconomic class or below it. Significantly, Jesus and his disciples were not themselves from the very bottom of society. His father worked with his hands, but he was not destitute, and some of Jesus’ disciples were from families who owned fishing boats and houses (Mark 1:19, 29). They were not rich, but they also were not day labourers, beggars, or homeless, all of whom were the focus of Jesus’ sympathy.
His message had a social dimension in two respects. He thought that in the kingdom there would be social relationships, not a collection of disembodied spirits floating on the clouds. He also believed that the disadvantaged of the present world would be in some sense or other advantaged in the new age (Matthew 5:3–11; Luke 6:20–23). It is possible that the promise of houses and lands in Matthew 19:29 and Mark 10:29–30 is metaphorical, but it is also possible that Jesus envisaged a future society in which property would still count, though it would be redistributed.
Jesus’ appeal to sinners, according to Luke 5:32, meant that he called them to repent, but neither Matthew 9:13 nor Mark 2:17 mentions the word repentance. Most likely, Jesus’ message was more radical than a simple call for repentance, a proposition with which everyone would have agreed. He wanted sinners to accept him and his message, and he promised inclusion in the kingdom if they did so. This acceptance doubtless included moral reformation, but Jesus probably did not mean that they had to conform precisely to the standards of righteous Jewish society, which demanded repayment of money or goods obtained dishonestly, the addition of one-fifth as a fine, and the presentation of a guilt-offering in the Temple (Leviticus 6:1–7). Instead, Jesus called people to follow him and to be like his disciples. He evidently expected more people to be like him (accepting sinners, loving even enemies) than to join the small band that followed him. Although Jesus specifically called several followers, he seems not to have viewed personal faith in and commitment to him as absolute necessities (though faith in him became the standard requirement of early Christianity).
Whether he made this particular requirement or not, Jesus certainly attached great importance to his own mission and person. The Christian preoccupation with titles (did he think that he was the Messiah, Son of God, heavenly Son of Man, son of David, or king?) obscures the issue. Jesus sometimes called himself the Son of Man, though perhaps not meaning the heavenly Son of Man, and according to two passages he indirectly accepted the epithets Messiah (or Christ) and Son of God (Matthew 16:16; Mark 14:61–62). In both cases, however, the parallel passages (Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20; 22:67–70; Matthew 26:63–64) are less strongly affirmative. In any case, Jesus apparently did not make an issue of titles. He called people to follow him and to devote themselves entirely to God, not to accord him a particular appellation. If he was preoccupied with titles, the evidence is so scant that it cannot be known what those titles meant to him or others. If, however, this uncertain evidence is overlooked, a clearer picture of his self-conception emerges: Jesus thought that he was God’s last emissary, that he and his disciples would rule in the coming kingdom, and that people who accepted his message would be included in it. He may also have believed that inclusion in the kingdom would be granted to those who loved their neighbours and were meek and lowly of heart.
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