Question #4 for Keith

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

Please answer the question.

How is Jesus a servant to the Father if “he has not subjected himself and the Kingdom to the Father”?

Your whole theory falls apart when you start claiming that the words of God are not to be taken literrally!

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,15:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,12:01) To be a true Mediator he has to be both God and man or he could not possibly be a “Perfect Mediator”. What?!?!?    So God Himself is the Mediator BETWEEN God and mankind?  A more nonsensical statement has never been uttered on HN.   That is the main tenet of the Christian faith you deny. Jesus was and is the Word that was with God and was God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Why do you deny the truth of the scripture that Jesus is our God and we have Only One God? WJ

Why the diversion Keith?  Why not just address the point I made?  Do you understand the word BETWEEN?  If Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and all of mankind, then Jesus cannot possibly be either “God” or “all of mankind”.

God would not be the “go between” for Himself and mankind Keith.  It is nonsensical to even claim such a thing.  It would be like me saying I'm going to mediate BETWEEN you and I in this discussion.  How is that possible if I'm one of the ones IN the discussion?  You and Jack bring this very point up many times on this site.  You always take offense to me being in a position to mediate BETWEEN members of a discussion when I'm actually involved IN the discussion.

And the scriptures NEVER say that the Word was with God and was God.  The scriptures list the Word as someone OTHER THAN what the NETNotes scholars call “the person of God”, who just happened to be WITH “the person of God” in the beginning.

Get it Keith?  1:1 does NOT equate Jesus with “THE God” of 1:1b.  You know this, the NET scholars come right out and say it, but you still quote your version of 1:1 over and over on this site – knowing full well it is misleading and slanted.

May our only true God, the Father, rebuke you for your shameful behavior.  May He do it hastily, so as not to allow you to continue to the point that forgiveness is no longer warranted.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:09)

But when Jesus DOES subject himself to God, what is the reason and the result?  Isn't it “so GOD can be all in all”?

So you do admit Jesus has not subjected himself to the Father yet? Jesus is ruling as God and is “all in all” now.

But when he does subject himself to the Father he will continue to reign forever with the Father because he and the Father will be all in all. The Father will take nothing back from the Son for it is his and in fact he has given Jesus all that he left when he came in the flesh. Jesus said “All Things are in his hands” before the resurrection.

Haven't you noticed this pattern in scriptures Mike that the Apostles hardly ever mentions the Father or God without putting Jesus right there with him in fact he sits in Gods throne and rules as God.  

You cannot overcome the present reality that everything is being made subject to Jesus.

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he (Jesus) is able even to SUBDUE all things unto himself”. Phil 3:21

It is scriptures like this that you don't like.  

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:05)

What you demand I answer a question when you have not answered at least 5 of mine in the previous page?

I officially ended this discussion and thread 3 days ago, so any question I answer at all is a courtesy.  And I have told you 1000 times that if you post more than one question in any given post, that I will cherry pick the one I want to answer.

I only request that YOU answer one per post, and I will usually do the same.  Keith, I MUST do it this way with you, for you are a master of the “million word march”.  Look at Paladin's response to your post in the “incarnation” thread.  See all those words?  They are diversions Keith, because he cannot possibly show anything that changes the meaning of “I came down from heaven”.  You guys are two peas in a pod when it comes to flooding the thread with overwhelming amounts of information designed to disguise the fact that you are unable to answer a simple “Yes” or “No” question.  

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:05)

But I will answer “NO” the term “firstborn” does not apply to the Father no more than the term “Son” belongs to the Father. So what??? Does that prove Jesus is not God identically like the Father in nature like a human son is in nature identical to his Father.

Absolutely Keith.  Because one would NOT call God the “firstborn” of anything, the fact that Jesus IS called the “firstborn” shows that he is a different being than his God.  (I can't believe I even have to say these asinine words.  “His God” should say it all.    )

And a human son is NEVER the same being as the father who brought him forth, is he?  Why then would you think the Son of God is the same being who brought HIM forth?  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,14:53) Thanks for pointing that out Mike because everything in the Universe was created by the Father and Jesus… Say it scripturally Keith, or don't say it at all, okay? Everything was created by GOD, period.  Our “one God” is “the Father”, period.  Therefore, everything was created by the Father, including His own firstborn Son. Proverbs 8:22 NET © The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. mike Mike I don't see the words firstborn son or Jesus in that scripture do you. You have to do better than inference. WJ

Oh, I wouldn't expect to just claim that is Jesus without supporting scriptures Keith. That's where Rev 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 come in. Then add Micah 5:2 and Heb 2:6.

They all add up together Keith.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,15:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,12:01) To be a true Mediator he has to be both God and man or he could not possibly be a “Perfect Mediator”. What?!?!?    So God Himself is the Mediator BETWEEN God and mankind?  A more nonsensical statement has never been uttered on HN.   That is the main tenet of the Christian faith you deny. Jesus was and is the Word that was with God and was God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Why do you deny the truth of the scripture that Jesus is our God and we have Only One God? WJ Why the diversion Keith?  Why not just address the point I made?  Do you understand the word BETWEEN?  If Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and all of mankind, then Jesus cannot possibly be either “God” or “all of mankind”.

There is no diversion Mike. When did Jesus become the Mediator? Wasn't it when he was the Word that was with God and was God and came in the likeness of sinfull flesh.

And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind because all of mankind was created by him and without him NOTHING came into being. All makind is saved by him. And he with the Father dwells in all of mankind in the New creation and of their Kingdom there will be no end.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:40)

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he (Jesus) is able even to SUBDUE all things unto himself”. Phil 3:21 It is scriptures like this that you don't like.

I love that scripture Keith. I find it very uplifting to know that Jesus will exact revenge on his enemies, now that his own God has subjected those enemies to him.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47)

And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind

Listen to your own words Keith. Jesus REPRESENTS all of mankind. Jesus also REPRESENTS God. But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”.

Answer my question how God can mediate BETWEEN Himself and us.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:45)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,14:53) Thanks for pointing that out Mike because everything in the Universe was created by the Father and Jesus… Say it scripturally Keith, or don't say it at all, okay? Everything was created by GOD, period.  Our “one God” is “the Father”, period.  Therefore, everything was created by the Father, including His own firstborn Son. Proverbs 8:22 NET © The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. mike Mike I don't see the words firstborn son or Jesus in that scripture do you. You have to do better than inference. WJ Oh, I wouldn't expect to just claim that is Jesus without supporting scriptures Keith.  That's where Rev 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 come in.  Then add Micah 5:2 and Heb 2:6. They all add up together Keith. mike

Hi Mike

In your mind they add up. But the truth is all those scriptures that you mention have words that have different meanings and interpretations like “Beginning”, and “Firstborn” etc.

So you have nothing that is sound proof that Jesus had a beginnig but only a lot of patch work and inference.

I will tell you what Mike how about creating a thread to prove your theory that Jesus before he came in the flesh had a beginning?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47) And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind Listen to your own words Keith.  Jesus REPRESENTS all of mankind.  Jesus also REPRESENTS God.  But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”. Answer my question how God can mediate BETWEEN Himself and us.

Mike

Is there another second Adam by which all of the New creation comes through?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47) And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind Listen to your own words Keith.  Jesus REPRESENTS all of mankind.  Jesus also REPRESENTS God.  But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”.

Listen to yourself.

If being THE “Son of Man” means he is man.

Then being the “Son of God” means he is God.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:26)

Mike Please answer the question. How is Jesus a servant to the Father if “he has not subjected himself and the Kingdom to the Father”? Your whole theory falls apart when you start claiming that the words of God are not to be taken literrally! WJ

1 Corinthians 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Who will the Son subject himself to? The One who had the power to put everything under him in the first place, right?

What this means is that Jesus is ruling over his God's creation right now, because his God has allowed him this priviledge and given him the power and authority to do so. It does not mean that Jesus is now equal to the One who placed his enemies below him, or those enemies would have already been below him to start with.

Just as death once had mastery over Jesus but not God. Death no longer has mastery over him, not because he is God, for that would mean that death never could have had mastery over him in the first place, but because his own God has made it so for him.

To answer you question AGAIN, Jesus is a servant of his God even after being exalted BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE SCRIPTURES TEACH Keith. Who is it that is not taking the words of God literally?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:48)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:40) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he (Jesus) is able even to SUBDUE all things unto himself”. Phil 3:21 It is scriptures like this that you don't like.   I love that scripture Keith.  I find it very uplifting to know that Jesus will exact revenge on his enemies, now that his own God has subjected those enemies to him.

Good then you now accept Jesus being God because only God can subdue everything to himself.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47) And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind Listen to your own words Keith.  Jesus REPRESENTS all of mankind.  Jesus also REPRESENTS God.  But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”. Listen to yourself. If being THE “Son of Man” means he is man. Then being the “Son of God” means he is God. WJ

Answer my point Keith.

(And being the Son OF God means that he is the Son OF God, not the God he is the Son OF.)

A first grader could figure this out Keith…………..why can't you?

Keith, ANSWER THE POINT I MADE ABOUT JESUS REPRESENTING, BUT NOT BEING, “GOD” OR “ALL OF MANKIND”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:40) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he (Jesus) is able even to SUBDUE all things unto himself”. Phil 3:21 It is scriptures like this that you don't like.   I love that scripture Keith.  I find it very uplifting to know that Jesus will exact revenge on his enemies, now that his own God has subjected those enemies to him. Good then you now accept Jesus being God because only God can subdue everything to himself. WJ

No Keith,

I accept that our God is so powerful that He could give a tomato plant all power and authority so that it could subdue all things to itself. It would not mean the tomato plant was God Himself, only that God gave it a vast amount of power.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47) And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”.

Really? But you say…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00)

And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god” (changed to [a] true god), but I agree that he is.

AND…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35)

Jesus is the god (changed to a god), or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.

You should adjust your terminology when speaking of god since you believe in other gods because you don't have the right to say there is 'only one God”.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,17:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47) And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind Listen to your own words Keith.  Jesus REPRESENTS all of mankind.  Jesus also REPRESENTS God.  But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”. Listen to yourself. If being THE “Son of Man” means he is man. Then being the “Son of God” means he is God. WJ Answer my point Keith.   (And being the Son OF God means that he is the Son OF God, not the God he is the Son OF.) A first grader could figure this out Keith…………..why can't you?   Keith, ANSWER THE POINT I MADE ABOUT JESUS REPRESENTING, BUT NOT BEING, “GOD” OR “ALL OF MANKIND”.

Mike

It is real simple. If you are identical to your earthly Father in nature than that means you are human.

If Jesus is identicle in nature to the Father then that means Jesus is God.

But you serve a Begotten Son from the Father that is a half breed or demi-god or something like an angel.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,17:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:40) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he (Jesus) is able even to SUBDUE all things unto himself”. Phil 3:21 It is scriptures like this that you don't like.   I love that scripture Keith.  I find it very uplifting to know that Jesus will exact revenge on his enemies, now that his own God has subjected those enemies to him. Good then you now accept Jesus being God because only God can subdue everything to himself. WJ No Keith, I accept that our God is so powerful that He could give a tomato plant all power and authority so that it could subdue all things to itself.  It would not mean the tomato plant was God Himself, only that God gave it a vast amount of power.

Then you should accept that Jesus is also able to give to a tomato plant all authority and power because all things are in Jesus hands making him equal with God the Father.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,16:04)

You should adjust your terminology when speaking of god since you believe in other gods because you don't have the right to say there is 'only one God”.

I understand “one God” the same way that I understand “one Lord” in that scripture. I know the “one Lord” wording does not imply there has never been any other lord, period. (Especially since Paul says in the same thought that there are many lords.) The question is: Do YOU understand this, Keith?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,16:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,17:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,16:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,15:47) And Jesus is the second “Adam” which means he represents all of mankind Listen to your own words Keith.  Jesus REPRESENTS all of mankind.  Jesus also REPRESENTS God.  But he is neither “all of mankind” nor “God”. Listen to yourself. If being THE “Son of Man” means he is man. Then being the “Son of God” means he is God. WJ Answer my point Keith.   (And being the Son OF God means that he is the Son OF God, not the God he is the Son OF.) A first grader could figure this out Keith…………..why can't you?   Keith, ANSWER THE POINT I MADE ABOUT JESUS REPRESENTING, BUT NOT BEING, “GOD” OR “ALL OF MANKIND”. Mike 1. It is real simple. If you are identical to your earthly Father in nature than that means you are human. 2. If Jesus is identicle in nature to the Father then that means Jesus is God. 3. But you serve a Begotten Son from the Father that is a half breed or demi-god or something like an angel. WJ

I see……………you STILL won't address the actual point in question, eh?

1. I am not “identical” to my earthly father. I am LIKE him, but he is a completely different being than I am.

2. Jesus is not “identical” to his Father or he too would be “the Father”. He would not have been begotten because his Father is not begotten. He would never have been sent by anyone because his Father has never been sent by anyone. He would not have someone he calls “my God” because his Father doesn't have anyone He calls “my God”. Keith, our God is the same person as Jesus' God – what does that tell you? God Almighty does NOT have a God of his own. So like me and my dad, Jesus is LIKE his Father, but not “identical” to Him.

3. Yes, I serve God's begotten Son because my God has purposed that I do this. And should He later purpose that I serve the tomato plant He gave vast amounts of power to…………..I will obey Him and do that also.

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