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Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,13:07) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,10:52) An outworking of Einstein's general theory of relativity is that time, space and matter are inter-related and any one component cannot exist without the other. So when Yeshua brought “all things” into existence (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 etc etc) that would include time (i.e time began at the creation of all things). It logically follows then that as He is the agent of creation He must have preceded time itself – had no beginning in it – and, by definition, is a timeless being.
Looks correct.Jesus was the first work of the Father. Then through him, God created all things. Yes I agree that this did not include Jesus/Word.
Some of the early church fathers put it like this:
For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.
If He was the “first work” that makes Him a thing and you have irreconcilable verses to deal with.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:53) You haven't addressed the point. Let's try another approach. Was Jesus involved in creation? In what capacity?
It is unclear from scripture. We know that God created everything alone. We also know that God chose to do this THROUGH His Son. What that word “through” really means is anyone's guess.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:09) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:36) The Watchtower understand the logical implication of Col 1:16 that's why they bracket the word “other” between “all” and “things” in their NWT paraphrase. This is in spite of the fact that the two Greek words for “other” (heteros and allos) are not found in any manuscripts, it flies in the face of the context of the passage and in fact forces an opposite interpretation of Paul's intended conveyance.
Leviticus 11 NIV
20 “‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. 21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.Paul, the bolded word “other” above isn't in the original text. Yet many translations add it for clarification. Gill says: But all other flying creeping things,…. Excepting the four sorts before mentioned, wherefore we rightly supply the word “other”.
Wesley's Notes says: 11:23 All other – That is, which have not those legs above and besides their feet mentioned, Lev 11:21.
The NWT renders it correctly. Scripture speaks of Jesus being created, brought forth, begotten, born, being a Son, and having a beginning. Not one of those things could ever be said about God Almighty.
Yes, translators are quite entitled to, and often do, add words when it makes the passage read more smoothly in English as long as it doesn't alter the clear meaning of the text. Col 1:16 in the NWT does not fit this criteria….Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,12:50) So if Jesus is not the God they prayed TO, then Jesus must be included in the “EVERYTHING” in heaven and earth that was made BY the God they prayed TO.
This assertion has an unstated premise – namely that God is unipersonal. This premise has not been substantiated.
6900 singular pronouns seem to differ with you.Please address the prayer I posted, for it seems you have diverted around it. Did they pray TO Jesus, Paul?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:13) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:53) You haven't addressed the point. Let's try another approach. Was Jesus involved in creation? In what capacity?
It is unclear from scripture. We know that God created everything alone. We also know that God chose to do this THROUGH His Son. What that word “through” really means is anyone's guess.
It's difficult when you have to force scripture to fit your theology and even more difficult when you have none to appeal to.Hebrews 1:10 makes it plain what Yeshua's involvement was.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:14) Yes, translators are quite entitled to, and often do, add words when it makes the passage read more smoothly in English as long as it doesn't alter the clear meaning of the text. Col 1:16 in the NWT does not fit this criteria….
Says who? You and the others out there who believe that the Son OF God can BE the God he is the Son OF?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:16) 6900 singular pronouns seem to differ with you.
I can't think of one verse that explicitly states God is one person. Can you?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:13) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:53) You haven't addressed the point. Let's try another approach. Was Jesus involved in creation? In what capacity?
It is unclear from scripture. We know that God created everything alone. We also know that God chose to do this THROUGH His Son. What that word “through” really means is anyone's guess.
It's difficult when you have to force scripture to fit your theology and even more difficult when you have none to appeal to.Hebrews 1:10 makes it plain what Yeshua's involvement was.
We've been there before, haven't we? 
Let's hear about the prayer in Acts 4.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:19) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:14) Yes, translators are quite entitled to, and often do, add words when it makes the passage read more smoothly in English as long as it doesn't alter the clear meaning of the text. Col 1:16 in the NWT does not fit this criteria….
Says who? You and the others out there who believe that the Son OF God can BE the God he is the Son OF?
Come on, be sensible. Why did Paul use the word “all” and omit the word “other” if Yeshua was a creature? Makes no sense…..As I said the Watchtower have at least thought this through.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:16) 6900 singular pronouns seem to differ with you.
I can't think of one verse that explicitly states God is one person. Can you?
Maybe you could help out WJ in his debate with t8. He seems to be unsure why his God is a THEM but he always refers to them as a “HE”.And sure, I can think of plenty of verses. Paul, do you know of any human beings who are “more than one person”?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:22) Come on, be sensible. Why did Paul use the word “all” and omit the word “other” if Yeshua was a creature? Makes no sense…..
Why did Peter and John use the word EVERYTHING if it did not include Jesus?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,12:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,11:17) Hi Paul, It's been a while, huh?
I hope all is well with you. No scripture says that Jesus “brought all things into existence”. Scripture teaches that all things are created THROUGH Jesus by his God.Jesus is not the Creator, but a part of the creation himself. He was the first thing his God ever created.
Another way to look at it – if “ALL THINGS” came through/by Him, logically He cannot Himself be a “thing”. The word “all” completely refutes it.
Acts 4 NIV
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Paul, there is a specific person that Peter and John prayed to here. That person is listed in verse 24, right? Jesus is obviously not that person they prayed TO, for in verse 30, he is listed as a different person THROUGH WHOM they prayed? He is listed as the “servant” of this person they prayed TO.
So if Jesus is not the God they prayed TO, then Jesus must be included in the “EVERYTHING” in heaven and earth that was made BY the God they prayed TO.
I'm not sure how this relates to my point? Because the prayer was directed to the Father Yeshua was not involved? Explain.I'm not arguing that Jesus was the Creator to the exclusion of the Father.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:26) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:22) Come on, be sensible. Why did Paul use the word “all” and omit the word “other” if Yeshua was a creature? Makes no sense…..
Why did Peter and John use the word EVERYTHING if it did not include Jesus?
Because if the Father is credited for being the Creator this is not necessarily to the exclusion of Yeshua. You're reading that into the text.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:27) And speaking of “sensible”. YOU come on. Really? The Son OF God is the God he is the Son OF?
Are James and John the sons of literal thunder, is Judas the son of literal perdition….Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:26) I'm not sure how this relates to my point? Because the prayer was directed to the Father Yeshua was not involved? Explain.
Oh I think I layed it out quite well. You are just pretending it's not clear to you.Jesus WAS involved in the prayer. He is the SERVANT of the God Peter and John prayed TO. But the God they prayed TO is the ONE who created all things, including the one they prayed to that God THROUGH.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:26) I'm not arguing that Jesus was the Creator to the exclusion of the Father.
Yeah, but Peter and John seem to be stating that God was the Creator to the exclusion of Jesus, don't they? We only have ONE Creator, as you've pointed out by the use of the singular word “Creator”. This prayer in Acts tells us who it IS, and also who it ISN'T.Getting back to the original point….if Yeshua was, in some capacity, involved in the creation of ALL THINGS how can He Himself be a thing?
Still waiting for an answer.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:34) Jesus WAS involved in the prayer. He is the SERVANT of the God Peter and John prayed TO. But the God they prayed TO is the ONE who created all things, including the one they prayed to that God THROUGH.
So therefore He had an involvement in the prayer. LOL.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:29) Because if the Father is credited for being the Creator this is not necessarily to the exclusion of Yeshua. You're reading that into the text.
No. GOD is credited for being the Creator. It is YOU who reads in “the Father”. GOD is the ONE BEING who created EVERYTHING. Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO this ONE BEING in that prayer.
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