Question #2 for Keith

[Is 1:18]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,12:36)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,02:39) David, do you ever take a critical look at your organisation? – its dubious founder, its literary deceptions, its horrendous paraphrase, its false prophecies, its psychological manipulations….why would you want to be associated with such a mess?? As opposed to say, the murderers who concocted and developed the comically flawed trinity doctrine, for example?

Which murderers are they?

[Lightenup]

Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,04:37)

Thanks Kathi. And I like that song/poem that you put. ———————- To anyone, if you think that Jesus is just a god among other gods, or whatever you think, and should be mentioned just briefly at the end of each prayer, then look at this… Acts 7:59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, don't hold this sin against them!” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Shimmer,
You are on the right track. Keep it up I'm glad you liked the poem.

Kathi

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,19:39)

David, do you ever take a critical look at your organisation? – its dubious founder, its literary deceptions, its horrendous paraphrase, its false prophecies, its psychological manipulations….why would you want to be associated with such a mess??

What about removing the Trinity plank first?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 29 2011,20:10)

Quote (shimmer @ May 29 2011,19:03) Is, There was more to the story than what I put, so I was speaking in riddles… sorry… I agree with you. Lets just leave it at that, OK. Okay, fine with me. Be well.

Where's the love?

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,13:13)

Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27) I agree with that, but I see no problem in calling Jesus God the Son with a capital G, because there's God the Father and God the Son. Hi Shimmer, The problem arises when you lead someone else to think Jesus IS God Almighty by using the capped “G” for him.   And there is no “God the Son” ever mentioned in any scripture.  There is the Son OF God, who is himself mighty, and therefore a god.  Satan is also a mighty one, and therefore a god, but you wouldn't call him “God the Devil”, would you? Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27) No-one else will be like them exactly. What do you mean by “LIKE THEM“?  The eternal, unbegotten God who created Jesus is can not be lumped into the same category as the only begotten god He created.  The one whom God let rule for a time cannot be compared apples to apples with the One he will soon hand the Kingdom back over to.  The one THROUGH whom all things came is not equal to the One FROM whom all things came. Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27) I liked what Kathi put …. Quote Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.'  Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo.  One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it.  They are united in what they do or say. Is that not true in your experience? I don't think the Father has spoken directly to anyone on earth for a very long time.  All communication comes to and from God through our mediator Jesus, AND through other mediators such as angels and spirit. Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27) When I pray I am praying to both the Father and the Son. I don't divide God and Jesus in my mind at all I don't even think about it. I pray the way my Lord and his Apostles taught me to.  TO my Father in heaven, THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ. Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27) And I agree with the following that Kathi put. I don't see why people would have an issue with what was wrote. Point me to the part you disagree with. Read the first post on page 26, and then the 4th post on that same page.  I went through her post line by line with my concerns. Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27) And as for the word Godhead, that is in scripture… The word denotes “deity”, not “Godhead”.  Check your Biblos site and notice how the newer Bibles translate it now.  Check the Greek and see what the word means.  There is no “Godhead” mentioned in any scripture, although this was a good try by the Trinni's while it lasted. peace, mike

I have to say, all of this theology gets at me, I don't know why I keep reading, it's like some weird addiction.  

I thought back to what I believed. You know, I had no set theology. Fruits of the spirit, and communication with God, was what I believed. Thing's just came to me as I went.

I had good days I had bad. More good than bad. On good I was energized by the spirit. I felt led. My mind was thinking – all the time. It was all I talked about. I wasn't interested in anything else. If someone started talking about wordly things, I was bored. Couldn't wait to get away.

But I debated. I had strong convictions. Example…

Churches mentioned Jesus a lot. What about God (the Father)?
Jesus isn't God the Father, he's the Son.
God would not torture people forever. Thats sick.
Anyone who believes that must be loveless.
And the love they show is fake, and selfish
They love God for a reward, or to avoid hell.
They don't care about anyone else but themself.
Church is just a social gathering.
They like to take money – or demand money.
Statues in the Catholic Church are wrong.
Obedience and listening to God is what we need to do.
Teaching kids about Father Christmas is wrong. Your lying to them and expecting them to believe in God too.
Overeating is wrong, because people die of hunger.
Be greatfull for what you have. Count your blessings in prayer. Don't get what you don't need.
When you pray, take time to listen. (God can speak to your heart and mind).
The closer you are to God, the more love you feel for others. Strangers more. You want to reach out and help people.
Be humble and kind to everyone you meet.
Let people know what you are. Don't hide it.

And I learnt that Muslims have an amazing faith, but have been misled.
And that Jesus is appearing to them in Dreams and Visions because Christians in general are too comfortable to do the job themself. (1% of Christianity).

That was my theology and what I debated. There would be thing's Iv forgotten to add.

Don't know what I was on about yesterday about 'what I used to believe'  Because it's all above.
I wanted to be a JW or an Adventist but they have thing's I definately don't agree on so I won't be.

I have all my serious discussions on God and the Scripture with my Mum and Dad and my Kids and my Ex partner.

But since being on this forum, this is what I have learnt….

2 Tim 2:14

“These things remind them of, testifying fully before the Lord — not to strive about words to nothing profitable, but to the subversion of those hearing”

[shimmer]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,18:05)

Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,04:37) Thanks Kathi. And I like that song/poem that you put. ———————- To anyone, if you think that Jesus is just a god among other gods, or whatever you think, and should be mentioned just briefly at the end of each prayer, then look at this… Acts 7:59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, don't hold this sin against them!” When he had said this, he fell asleep. Shimmer, You are on the right track.  Keep it up  I'm glad you liked the poem. Kathi

I did like it Kathi. I thought what you wrote was really good. Can't say I agree with everything, but still good

[shimmer]

Jay and Mike and t8 I agree with you. See ya.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,23:30)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,12:36) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,02:39) David, do you ever take a critical look at your organisation? – its dubious founder, its literary deceptions, its horrendous paraphrase, its false prophecies, its psychological manipulations….why would you want to be associated with such a mess?? As opposed to say, the murderers who concocted and developed the comically flawed trinity doctrine, for example?   Which murderers are they?

Hey Paul, have you decided yet if the prayer in Acts 4 is just a matter of scripture contradicting itself?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2011,10:34)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,23:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,12:36) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,02:39) David, do you ever take a critical look at your organisation? – its dubious founder, its literary deceptions, its horrendous paraphrase, its false prophecies, its psychological manipulations….why would you want to be associated with such a mess?? As opposed to say, the murderers who concocted and developed the comically flawed trinity doctrine, for example?   Which murderers are they?   Hey Paul, have you decided yet if the prayer in Acts 4 is just a matter of scripture contradicting itself?

I have decided that it's not, for me anyway. I think i've told you that. If Acts 4 proves that The Father is Creator to the exclusion of Yeshua then by that same logic 1 Cor 8:6 and Jude 1:4 proves that Yeshua is Lord (to us) to the exclusion of the Father. Which, of course, is entry level apologetics.

Which murderers are they?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ May 31 2011,05:17)

Churches mentioned Jesus a lot. What about God (the Father)?

Brilliant point, Shimmer. They seem to exalt the Son ABOVE his own Father and God, the Creator of all things.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2011,01:35)

If Acts 4 proves that The Father is Creator to the exclusion of Yeshua then by that same logic 1 Cor 8:6 and Jude 1:4 proves that Yeshua is Lord (to us) to the exclusion of the Father.

Well, we KNOW that Acts 4 DOES credit God with the creation TO THE EXCLUSION OF JESUS, right?

So that one is a given, case closed.  8:6 places the two most powerful beings in existence in their respective categories, with “God” being higher than “master”.

And 1:4 rightly reads:
NKJV ©
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So now what, Paul?

[Is 1:18]

So, now what….what?

You derive doctrine via eisogetical interpretation of single prooftexts, I don't. What's left to say?

Which murderers are they?

[mikeboll64]

Hi Paul,

I'll take your last post as your acknowledgement that the prayer in Acts 4 speaks of ONE who created all things, and a DIFFERENT one named Jesus Christ.

It's good enough for me to know you can't defend your understanding in light of what you call my “eisogetical interpretation of a single prooftext”.

Scriptures don't contradict each other, Paul. If my ONE prooftext makes it clear that the One who created all things is someone other than the one called Jesus, then perhaps you need to re-read YOUR prooftexts and examine whether they really in deed do claim that Jesus created even one single thing.

I know that if you are honest with yourself during your examination, you'll come to the same conclusion I have come to: Not one of them says Jesus actually created anything.

(If you'd like to go into a discussion on murdering Trinitarians, start a thread. There's likely already a couple of them on this site.)

[Is 1:18]

Acts 4:24-27 gives some detail of the creation event, but it's not the complete picture. It's tantamount to part quoting Ps 14:1 to prove “there is no God”. BTW, I don't dispute that the Father is the Creator.

When you mature in your understanding of biblical hermaneutics you'll understand the error you're making. Here's a start for you.

http://www.theologue.org/PrinciplesBiblicalInterpretation.html

Quote

(If you'd like to go into a discussion on murdering Trinitarians, start a thread. There's likely already a couple of them on this site.)

Okay.

[mikeboll64]

Paul,

Don't address the fact that YOU'VE been proven wrong by telling ME that I need to mature in MY understanding.  

I asked you to examine your own “Jesus created” proof texts.  Have you done this yet?  Have you found one that actually says Jesus created anything?

Let me know when you do, okay?

[Istari]

Was mankind created THROUGH Jesus?

Doesn't Scriptures say that 'We are sustained THROUGH/By Him'?

I'm confused.

Were 'we' sustained through 'he who would become Jesus' before he became the Begotten Son and was given the Power and Authority to rule 'as God' over his Father's Kingdom?

I'm confused because there appears to be a dilemma!

One place states that Jesus created all things – for how can all things have been created THROUGH HIM yet not BY HIM?

If a man hits a nail into a piece of wood with a hammer – did the hammer drive the nail into the wood or was it the man?

If a man builds a large house using hundreds of workers including a Chief Worker – did the Man build the house or did the Chief Worker build it?
Or was the house build THROUGH the chief worker? Or BY the Chief Worker?
But hold on – what about the other workers? Through or By?

Who maintains the house – the man or his housekeeper?

Surely this is all dependent on CONTEXT…? And PERSPECTIVE…? And is RELATIONAL?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ June 05 2011,16:56)

I'm confused. Were 'we' sustained through 'he who would become Jesus' before he became the Begotten Son and was given the Power and Authority to rule 'as God' over his Father's Kingdom?  One place states that Jesus created all things – for how can all things have been created THROUGH HIM yet not BY HIM?

Hi Istari,

Let me try to help sort out your confusion.  

1.  Jesus NOW sustains everything by the power of his word because his God and our God has exalted him to a name above all names and has given him all power and authority to rule in His stead for a little while, after which Jesus will hand the keys to the Kingdom back over to the One who put him in charge for a while.  It is not said that all things have ALWAYS been sustained by Jesus…………that is a more recent development resulting from his exaltation.

2.  There is no scriptural reason to think “Jesus” hasn't been his name all along, and therefore no reason to say “he who would become Jesus”.

3.  He became God's only begotten Son when God beget him before the ages, from days of antiquity, as the first of His works.

4.  Jesus is never said to have created anything, nor is anything ever said to be created BY him.  The Greek word that some “Jesus is God” translators like to translate as “BY” can also be translated as “THROUGH”.  Context dictates which translation fits better.  And since we know that God DID create, and we know that we have “A CREATOR”  and not “CREATORS”, and we know that all things are FROM God and THROUGH Jesus, the context is screaming that “THROUGH” is the faithful and accurate translation of “dia” in these scriptures.

I'll let Tertullian expand even more on your concern about “by” and “through”:
For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as he himself confesses, “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm his inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and he who is begotten is another. He, too, who sends is one, and he who is sent is another, and He, again, who makes is one, and he through whom the thing is made is another. (Against Praxeas, 9).

Don't fall into the Trinitarian trap of thinking that “FROM” and “THROUGH” mean the same thing, or imply the same person.

P.S.  Remember that this is NOT a “when was Jesus begotten” thread.

[Pastry]

Mike!  But it does say that through Jesus all was created. In

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

In my opinion the beginning in John 1;1 is the beginning of Jesus and then through Jesus God created all.  Before times.

Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  

Pro 8:23   I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.  

Pro 8:24   When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.  

Pro 8:25   Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:  

Pro 8:26   While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.  

Pro 8:27   When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:  

Pro 8:28   When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:  

Pro 8:29   When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:  

Pro 8:30   Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;  
Some might want to say this is wisdom speaking.  But consider what wisdom is.  Wisdom is like patience, hope, Lov e it is inside of God and He always had wisdom.  

In verse 23-30 tells you in the beginning just like John 1:1 and then He created all through Jesus…

Peace and Love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Yes Irene,

I've never said anything different than that. God created all things THROUGH His firstborn and only begotten Son.

peace,
mike

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,13:11)

If He was the “first work” that makes Him a thing and you have irreconcilable verses to deal with.

That is your assumption.

Creation is defined as that which was made by God, through Christ. Obviously that doesn't include the one that God used to make all through.

Existing before creation and after the Father, does not qualify him as created.

[Author]

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