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Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,21:31)
Mike,
The Father always existed, you know that right? The Son was in Him.
Kathi, EVERYTHING was “in Him” at one time. Paul said that ALL THINGS came FROM the Father. Are ALL THINGS from eternity just because they came FROM God?Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,21:31)
You deny that the scriptures call Him 'our great God and Savior.'
I don't doubt that Jesus is a mighty god. YHWH Himself foretold through Isaiah that His Son would be called by this title in Is 9:6.However, we disagree on the comma in Titus 2:13, and Romans 9:5 says that Jesus is God blessed forever – not that he is God.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,21:31)
Also, Jesus is the eternal High Priest according to His humanity and called a man after the resurrection.
A Priest TO God cannot be the God he is the Priest to – why can't you see how lame this is? A Priest is one who mediates BETWEEN men and God.You are mistaken that Jesus is still a man. But many people misunderstand 1 Tim 2:5, so let's look at it closer:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
What Paul is saying is that the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom, is now the interceding mediator between us and God. Paul is NOT saying that Jesus is STILL a man, or this scripture would contradict his own teachings:
Gal 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ…..11 Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 For I did not receive it or learn it from any man; instead I received it by a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Not to mention that human beings consist of flesh and blood. Paul says these things cannot inherit God's Kingdom, where I'm quite sure Jesus is right now, ruling over it. And in three different scriptures, Paul says that Jesus is now a spirit. Spirit beings are not human beings.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,21:31)
He is still both God and man.
And this is the awkward conclusion one arrives at by taking one precariously worded scripture out of context from the other scriptures, and then changing the words “Son OF God” to “God the Son”. How can God Almighty be a human being existing in heaven? Don't you remember that God is spirit, so we must worship in spirit?Good grief Charlie Brown!
mike
Quote (shimmer @ May 29 2011,06:23) Is:2, None will ever be the Father and none will ever be the Son.
Theres an order to things. First God the Father. then God the Son, then everybody else including the Angels. They will never be the Father or Son and neither will we.
Good post Shimmer!No one can become God if they have been something else before that.
Kathi
I think this is pretty good, maybe not perfect but I think that it gets the point across. It is a poem about the two natures of Christ, both God,as the Son and man. I hope it helps
An Exposition of The Mysteries
He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law, as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all, as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.He set out and departed to a desert place, as Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.the attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty power, as God.He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.Someone put this up on another forum but didn't identify the source.
Mike,
From the post at the top of this page…
you said:Quote Kathi, EVERYTHING was “in Him” at one time. Paul said that ALL THINGS came FROM the Father. Are ALL THINGS from eternity just because they came FROM God? This is what Paul said:
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
It doesn't say 'in' whom were all things. All things are definitely from and by the Father and the Son but not all things were within the Father. Otherwise all would be part of God and to be worshipped. But we have gone over this several times before. Do you believe in worshiping the trees? Why did Jesus rebuke the wind if it came from being within God? All things created were created apart from God's substance not from part of God's substance. Until you get this, you will not get that the Son is not a part of creation.Quote I don't doubt that Jesus is a mighty god. YHWH Himself foretold through Isaiah that His Son would be called by this title in Is 9:6. However, we disagree on the comma in Titus 2:13, and Romans 9:5 says that Jesus is God blessed forever – not that he is God.
The God cannot beget a god.
The God beget a God…one is God the Father and the other is His only begotten Son, our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.Quote A Priest TO God cannot be the God he is the Priest to – why can't you see how lame this is? A Priest is one who mediates BETWEEN men and God. And that is where we use our brains…Jesus is a priest to His God, the Father. There are two that are God, one as the Son and one as the Father, they are together as one Godhead but have different 'offices' and relationships.
Quote You are mistaken that Jesus is still a man. But many people misunderstand 1 Tim 2:5, so let's look at it closer: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
What Paul is saying is that the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom, is now the interceding mediator between us and God. Paul is NOT saying that Jesus is STILL a man, or this scripture would contradict his own teachings:
Gal 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ…..11 Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 For I did not receive it or learn it from any man; instead I received it by a revelation of Jesus Christ.
This explains it:
Paul an apostle, not of men, neither by man,…. The writer of this epistle, Paul, puts his name to it, as to all his epistles, excepting that to the Hebrews, if that be his, being neither afraid nor ashamed to own what is herein contained. He asserts himself to be “an apostle”, which was the highest office in the church, to which he was immediately called by Christ, and confirmed in it by signs and wonders. This he chose to mention, because of the false teachers, who had insinuated he was no apostle, and not to be regarded; whereas he had received grace and apostleship from Christ, and was an apostle, “not of men”, as were the apostles or messengers of the sanhedrim (a); See Gill on 2 Corinthians 8:23 and as were the false apostles, who were sent out by men, who had no authority to send them forth: the apostle, as he did not take this honour to himself, did not thrust himself into this office, or run before he was sent; so he was not sent by men; he did not act upon human authority, or by an human commission: this is said in opposition to the false apostles, and to an unlawful investiture with the office of apostleship, and an usurpation of it, as well as to distinguish himself from the messengers and ambassadors of princes, who are sent with credentials by them to negotiate civil affairs for them in foreign courts, he being an ambassador of Christ; and from the messengers of churches, who were sometimes sent with assistance or advice to other churches; and he moreover says, “nor by man”; by a mere man, but by one that was more than a man; nor by a mortal man, but by Christ, as raised from the dead, immortal and glorious at God's right hand: or rather the sense is, he was not chosen into the office of apostleship by the suffrages of men, as Matthias was; or he was not ordained an apostle in the manner the ordinary ministers of the Gospel and pastors are, by the churches of Christ; so that as the former clause is opposed to an unlawful call of men, this is opposed to a lawful one; and shows him to be not an ordinary minister, but an extraordinary one, who was called to this office, not mediately by men, by any of the churches as common ministers are:but by Jesus Christ; immediately, without the intervention of men, as appears from Acts 26:16. For what Ananias did upon his conversion was only putting his hands on him to recover his sight, and baptizing him; it was Christ that appeared to him personally, and made him a minister; and his separation with Barnabas, by the church, under the direction of the Holy Ghost, Acts 13:2 was to some particular work and service to be done by them, and not to apostleship, and which was long after Paul was made an apostle by Christ. Jesus Christ being here opposed to man, does not suggest that he was not a man, really and truly, for he certainly was; he partook of the same flesh and blood with us, and was in all things made like unto us, sin excepted; but that he was not a mere man, he was truly God as well as man; for as the raising him from the dead, in the next clause, shows him to be a man, or he could not have died; so his being opposed to man, and set in equality with God the Father, in this verse, and grace and peace being prayed for from him, as from the Father, Galatians 1:4 and the same glory ascribed to him as to the Father, Galatians 1:5 prove him to be truly and properly God. The apostle adds,
and God the Father; Christ and his Father being of the same nature and essence, power and authority, as they are jointly concerned and work together in the affairs or nature and Providence, so in those of grace; and particularly in constituting and ordaining apostles, and setting them in the church. This serves the more to confirm the divine authority under which Paul acted as an apostle, being not only made so by Christ, but also by God the Father,
who raised him from the dead; which is observed, not so much to express the divine power of the Father, or the glory of Christ, as raised from the dead, but to strengthen the validity of the apostle's character and commission as such; to whom it might have been objected, that he had not seen Christ in the flesh, nor familiarly conversed with him, as the rest of the apostles did: to which he was able to reply, that he was not called to be an apostle by Christ in his low and mean estate of humiliation, but by him after he was raised from the dead, and was set down at the right hand of God; who personally appeared to him in his glory, and was seen by him, and who
made and appointed him his apostle, to bear his name before Gentiles, and kings, and the people of Israel; so that his call to apostleship was rather more grand and illustrious than that of any of the other apostles.from Gill, found here: http://bible.cc/galatians/1-1.htm
I hope this helps you,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,16:28)
All things are definitely from and by the Father and the Son but not all things were within the Father.
No…………that's not what it says, is it? It says all things are FROM God and THROUGH Jesus. How in the world do you read that scripture and then make the claim “from the Father AND the Son”?
And where are your scriptures to support that some things came “from within” the Father and other didn't?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,16:28)
Until you get this, you will not get that the Son is not a part of creation.
And until YOU start believing the scriptures, YOU'LL never get that the Son was the firstborn OF creation, the beginning OF creation and created as the first of God's works.Rebuking the wind? Come on Kathi. God put even lowly man over much of His creation – does that mean WE are God? Rev says that angels will hold back the winds of the earth, does that mean THEY are God?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,16:28)
The God cannot beget a god. The God beget a God.
Okay, so cap the “G”, as if that makes the one brought forth the same as the One who brought him forth. Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,16:28)
And that is where we use our brains…Jesus is a priest to His God, the Father. There are two that are God,
Please. If you were to REALLY “use your brain”, you would see that your first statement is absolutely correct, and your second one contradicts the whole of scripture.Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,16:28)
Jesus Christ being here opposed to man, does not suggest that he was not a man, really and truly, for he certainly was; he partook of the same flesh and blood with us,
I didn't see anywhere that Gill explained the contradiction of Gal 1:1, 1:11, 1 Cor 15:45, or 15:50 to 1 Tim 2:5…………did you? I admit that I didn't read the whole thing, but if you did, maybe you could point it out to me how Jesus can still be a man without contradicting 6 other scriptures.I did however notice that Gill accepts “partook of” to mean Jesus WAS “really and truly a man”. I wonder if he takes “partake of divine nature” to mean some of us will be “really and truly divine”?
Kathi, I prefer YOUR scriptural answers to my direct points over you posting the many, MANY words of early church fathers and scholars. Can YOU tell me how Jesus can still be a man when many scripture CLEARLY say he's not?
mike
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 29 2011,11:33) Quote (david @ May 29 2011,08:43) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,18:49) David, how do you interpret Romans 11:36?
HI PAUL.
Could you be mores specific? If you think that this scripture in some way conflicts with what I believe, then if you could point it out? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at?
What's unspecific about me asking you to interpret a verse? I just want your understanding of it, that's all. What's the problem David?
“Because
from him
and
by him
and
for him
are all things….”We are told all things are “from him” and “by him,” that is, God.
“there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”
QUESTION TO PAUL AND WJ:
Putting aside this discussion, what do you believe the reason is for the differentiation here? God, “out of whom all things are” and Jesus “through whom all things are.”
From your perspective, what does this mean?
Quote (t8 @ May 29 2011,05:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,13:33) Oh I see now. Jesus DOES actually HAVE human nature even though scripture says he “partook” of it. But we won't acutally HAVE divine nature because scripture says we only partake of it? Seems to me like a double standard to further a doctrine.
Good post too.
Really, t8…good post? You think that it is the same to go from divinity and then partake of humanity as it is to start out as humanity and partake of divinity?Whatever you think you will become, I can assure you, if you did not have as your essential nature, the divine nature, you will not be a creator God like the Father and the Son are. Or are you going to be 'as' God like Moses. But no, you won't be like Moses because Moses knew about the Jehovah that could be seen, and the one that was unseen. He wrote about the Jehovah who could be seen in Gen 18…he wrote about how Abraham spoke face to face with Him. If Jehovah was only the Father then that goes directly against scripture that no one has seen God, the Father, doesn't it.
I don't think an honest man can read Gen 18 and deny that there was one who was called Jehovah who was talking face to face with Abraham. Study the Hebrew word for LORD and you will see, t8.
Quote (Istari @ May 29 2011,04:20) Kathi and All, Romans 9:5… '…who is over all, Eternally blessed God, Amen'
Does anyone think that this statement is pertaining to Jesus? How?
Jesus, even if 'called' God – Mighty One – CANNOT POSSIBLY BE 'Eternal God' because his reign as 'God' is only 'UNTIL ALL THINGS ARE PUT UNDER HIS FEET'.
Then he hands the rulership of HIS FATHER's Kingdom BACK TO GOD, his Father!
So then he is no longer that 'God' but is then a MIGHTY RULER over his Own [Sub] Kingdom.
So how is Jesus 'Eternal God' if he, firstly, WAS NOT ETERNAL GOD, then WAS ETERNAL GOD, then IS NOT ETERNAL GOD!
There is only One who WAS, IS, and Always Will Be (Eternally) GOD – YHVH, God Most High, The ONE True God Almighty (Is Jesus ever said to be 'God Almighty'?)And how is the High Priest also the God to whom he himself is High Priest?
And how is a God also High Priest to Himself?
For the High Priest SERVES, and is the director of WORSHIP, to the God he serves!
So Jesus would be Serving And WORSHIPPING HIMSELF!!
Istari,
The Son has ALWAYS been eternal God as the Son, not eternal God as the Father, that is where you get confused. And you don't get the idea of two persons in one Godhead. That is also why you are confused.Jesus isn't a High Priest to Himself, God as the Son…He is the High Priest to God the Father.
And yes to your other question, Jesus is called YHVH but you can't understand that unless you realize that there are two that are called that, one seen and one unseen.
I know it is confusing if you don't believe in the deity of Christ in the first place.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,17:45) Istari,
The Son has ALWAYS been eternal God as the Son, not eternal God as the Father, that is where you get confused. And you don't get the idea of two persons in one Godhead. That is also why you are confused.Jesus isn't a High Priest to Himself, God as the Son…He is the High Priest to God the Father.
And yes to your other question, Jesus is called YHVH but you can't understand that unless you realize that there are two that are called that, one seen and one unseen.
I know it is confusing if you don't believe in the deity of Christ in the first place.
Yes, and I see Istari has also confused sabellianism for trinitarianism.Istari: FYI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrinitarianismQuote (david @ May 30 2011,14:03) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 29 2011,11:33) Quote (david @ May 29 2011,08:43) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,18:49) David, how do you interpret Romans 11:36?
HI PAUL.
Could you be mores specific? If you think that this scripture in some way conflicts with what I believe, then if you could point it out? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at?
What's unspecific about me asking you to interpret a verse? I just want your understanding of it, that's all. What's the problem David?
“Because
from him
and
by him
and
for him
are all things….”We are told all things are “from him” and “by him,” that is, God.
“there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”
QUESTION TO PAUL AND WJ:
Putting aside this discussion, what do you believe the reason is for the differentiation here? God, “out of whom all things are” and Jesus “through whom all things are.”
From your perspective, what does this mean?
I see you still quote the NWT when it suits your purposes. Some things never change. Funny how the word “dia” is rendered “by” when it's used in reference to the Father, but “through” when it's used to refer to the Son in passages relating to the Creation. Look at some other translations and you'll find the translators (real ones, David) do not allow their doctrinal presuppositions to bias their work. They consistently used the word “through”. Look's like Heb 2:10 slipped through the cracks though, maybe you could have a go at that one?David, do you ever take a critical look at your organisation? – its dubious founder, its literary deceptions, its horrendous paraphrase, its false prophecies, its psychological manipulations….why would you want to be associated with such a mess??
IS,
I don't confuse anything with anything – however and whatever title you give it the outcome is the same: There is ONE GOD (YHVH) and One Lord (Jesus).
The Holy Spirit is 'of the Father' (who is God, YHVH) and does not come into the equation.Check the greetings from the Apostles – do they mention the Holy Spirit? Why not if it is part of the Trinity – a little remiss of them, eh?
Do the Apostles call Jesus 'God'? Why not?
Does YHVH call Jesus 'God'? Why not?
Does Scriptures say 'We' when speaking of God?Which 'God' is 'God Almighty'
Which is 'The One True God'?Which 'God' raised Jesus from the dead? – How does a 'God' die?
And if Jesus wasn't God when he died then how did he become NOT GOD – die – then become God again?Thanks Kathi.
And I like that song/poem that you put.
———————-To anyone, if you think that Jesus is just a god among other gods, or whatever you think, and should be mentioned just briefly at the end of each prayer, then look at this…
Acts 7:59
They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, don't hold this sin against them!” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,00:45)
Istari,
The Son has ALWAYS been eternal God as the Son, not eternal God as the Father, that is where you get confused.
The Son has been the Son OF the eternal God since the moment his own God brought him into existence…………and that is where YOU get confused. One of our statements is scripturally supported while the other is not.Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,00:45)
And you don't get the idea of two persons in one Godhead. That is also why you are confused.
Why would Istari get the idea of two persons in a Godhead when scripture never teaches us such an illogical thing? Once again Kathi, it is YOU who is confused.Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,00:45)
Jesus isn't a High Priest to Himself, God as the Son…He is the High Priest to God the Father.
But you just said we have ONE Godhead, right? So either way you slice it, we have our Godhead being a Priest to our Godhead – our God being a Priest to our God. (Yet WE'RE the ones who are confused? )Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,00:45)
Jesus is called YHVH but you can't understand that unless you realize that there are two that are called that, one seen and one unseen.
YHWH is the name of our ONLY true God. Vice regents of YHWH were commonly called by His Name in scripture, on occasions that they were representing Him. But listen to your words: You say we have two equal, almighty Gods, yet one of them we CAN see and the other we CAN'T. How does that add up to “equal”?Kathi, I am worried about you. You started off “only” wanting to worship Jesus as the Son of God, in direct opposition to the commands of our God AND that Son you want to worship. But lately, you are making a mess for yourself. I have been watching you slowly build a doctrine that doesn't resemble anything that is supported by scripture.
Come out of her Kathi.
mike
Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,03:37) To anyone, if you think that Jesus is just a god among other gods, or whatever you think, and should be mentioned just briefly at the end of each prayer, then look at this… Acts 7:59
They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, don't hold this sin against them!” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Hi Shimmer,I don't think Jesus is just a “god among other gods”. I know that Jesus is the SECOND most powerful being in existence. His own God has placed his enemies under his feet, and has GIVEN him great power and authority.
Shimmer, do you believe that Jesus is God Almighty or equal to Him?
Or do you believe that Jesus is a being who is UNDER God Almighty, but ABOVE all other beings?
The latter is what is supported by the whole of scripture, and therefore what I believe. Which is why in the scripture you quoted, Stephen was able to SEE Jesus at the right hand of God, but was only able to see the GLORY of God, and not God Himself. Stephen was able to see the face of Jesus because he is NOT God Almighty.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,04:37)
Hi Shimmer,I don't think Jesus is just a “god among other gods”. I know that Jesus is the SECOND most powerful being in existence. His own God has placed his enemies under his feet, and has GIVEN him great power and authority.
Shimmer, do you believe that Jesus is God Almighty or equal to Him?
Or do you believe that Jesus is a being who is UNDER God Almighty, but ABOVE all other beings?
The latter is what is supported by the whole of scripture, and therefore what I believe. Which is why in the scripture you quoted, Stephen was able to SEE Jesus at the right hand of God, but was only able to see the GLORY of God, and not God Himself. Stephen was able to see the face of Jesus because he is NOT God Almighty.
mike
I agree with that, but I see no problem in calling Jesus God the Son with a capital G, because there's God the Father and God the Son. No-one else will be like them exactly. As you said.I liked what Kathi put ….
Quote Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say. Is that not true in your experience?
When I pray I say Lord. And I agree with what Kathi said, as she said it. When I pray I am praying to both the Father and the Son. I don't divide God and Jesus in my mind at all I don't even think about it.
And I agree with the following that Kathi put. I don't see why people would have an issue with what was wrote. Point me to the part you disagree with. As I said, this is what I used to believe, or similar. I'm only just remembering.
Quote Kathi:
Quote 1 John 1:3
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.Why does it not say that our fellowship is with the Father through His Son if we are hearing from the Father's words only. The Son has a mind separate from the Father and He always makes intercession for us…those words are His own. Why would He, when talking to the Father just repeat the Father's words right back to Him? I believe that the Son is interested in a personal relationship with you as well as the Father.
Do you think the Son is only a perfect puppet who just passes on whatever He sees and Hears, or can we truly have fellowship with Him AND the Father, not just the Father through Him.
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
I believe the Son is far more than just a messenger. He is our 'head' and our great God and Savior as the scripture puts it. I believe scripture calls us to believe IN two…the Father AND the Son…and that is simple. We understand a Father and a Son, like begets like.
People complicate it by saying that the Father is one type of being and His own Son is a completely different type of being from His Father. Isn't that like telling a child that a human father could have a true and proper son that is a monkey. Tell me what is simple about that? Like begets like…simple…God begets God, perfect begets perfect. That which you seem to believe is like begets unlike, God begets a god, perfect begets imperfect…that is not simple. Maybe I misunderstand what it is that you believe but it seems like you cannot see how two that are called God can become one Godhead and be referred to as one as well as referred to individually. I'm surprised that you would find that complicated. We have that example in marriage.
God is self-sufficient…both principal AND agent in one Godhead. If He is not both principal AND agent, He is not perfect and complete and is needy of another to create through and save that creation through, and to relate to that creation through because He can't do that by Himself. Does the Father dwell in us through His Son…No! It says that both the Father AND the Son dwell in us if we are believers.
And as for the word Godhead, that is in scripture…
Colossians 2:8
“See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ, because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”
Quote (Istari @ May 30 2011,20:15) IS,
I don't confuse anything with anything – however and whatever title you give it the outcome is the same: There is ONE GOD (YHVH) and One Lord (Jesus).
The Holy Spirit is 'of the Father' (who is God, YHVH) and does not come into the equation.Check the greetings from the Apostles – do they mention the Holy Spirit? Why not if it is part of the Trinity – a little remiss of them, eh?
Do the Apostles call Jesus 'God'? Why not?
Does YHVH call Jesus 'God'? Why not?
Does Scriptures say 'We' when speaking of God?Which 'God' is 'God Almighty'
Which is 'The One True God'?Which 'God' raised Jesus from the dead? – How does a 'God' die?
And if Jesus wasn't God when he died then how did he become NOT GOD – die – then become God again?
By my count you asked 10 questions here and I'm guessing the post took you about 10 minutes to write. At 10 minutes a question it's going to take me over an hour and a half to answer them all. I don't mind doing that as long as i'm afforded the same opportunity to interogate your christology and pneumatology. Can I ask that you make concise statement of these doctrines, expressing your understanding of identity, nature and origin of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. Then I'll prepare some questions for you to answer. When I see your synopsis I'll address your post above.But Mike, I'm still looking into the Sheppard of Hermas, and also maybe the Book of Enoch.
In them, the eternally existent Son of God is the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a sinless Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus became the second Son of God.
I'm just reading them though, not saying anything.
Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27)
I agree with that, but I see no problem in calling Jesus God the Son with a capital G, because there's God the Father and God the Son.
Hi Shimmer,The problem arises when you lead someone else to think Jesus IS God Almighty by using the capped “G” for him.
And there is no “God the Son” ever mentioned in any scripture. There is the Son OF God, who is himself mighty, and therefore a god. Satan is also a mighty one, and therefore a god, but you wouldn't call him “God the Devil”, would you?
Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27)
No-one else will be like them exactly.
What do you mean by “LIKE THEM“? The eternal, unbegotten God who created Jesus is can not be lumped into the same category as the only begotten god He created. The one whom God let rule for a time cannot be compared apples to apples with the One he will soon hand the Kingdom back over to. The one THROUGH whom all things came is not equal to the One FROM whom all things came.Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27)
I liked what Kathi put ….Quote
Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say.Is that not true in your experience?
I don't think the Father has spoken directly to anyone on earth for a very long time. All communication comes to and from God through our mediator Jesus, AND through other mediators such as angels and spirit.Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27)
When I pray I am praying to both the Father and the Son. I don't divide God and Jesus in my mind at all I don't even think about it.
I pray the way my Lord and his Apostles taught me to. TO my Father in heaven, THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ.Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27)
And I agree with the following that Kathi put. I don't see why people would have an issue with what was wrote. Point me to the part you disagree with.
Read the first post on page 26, and then the 4th post on that same page. I went through her post line by line with my concerns.Quote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:27)
And as for the word Godhead, that is in scripture…
The word denotes “deity”, not “Godhead”. Check your Biblos site and notice how the newer Bibles translate it now. Check the Greek and see what the word means. There is no “Godhead” mentioned in any scripture, although this was a good try by the Trinni's while it lasted.peace,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ May 30 2011,18:48) But Mike, I'm still looking into the Sheppard of Hermas, and also maybe the Book of Enoch. In them, the eternally existent Son of God is the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a sinless Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus became the second Son of God.
I'm just reading them though, not saying anything.
Okay. Read all you like. If I were you though, I'd only believe the things that agree with what we know to be scripture.Right off the bat I would wonder how the second Son of God was the firstborn of all creation through whom God created the ages. Especially if he didn't exist until he was born of Mary.
mike
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2011,02:39) David, do you ever take a critical look at your organisation? – its dubious founder, its literary deceptions, its horrendous paraphrase, its false prophecies, its psychological manipulations….why would you want to be associated with such a mess??
As opposed to say, the murderers who concocted and developed the comically flawed trinity doctrine, for example?
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