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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,15:54) Keith, Is the passage talking about man-made idols? Or do you think God is saying He will wipe out His vice-regents Deborah and Jesus?
The passage clearly says…“THE GODS THAT DID NOT MAKE the heavens and the earth WILL PERISH from the earth and from under the heavens.”
THE GODS THAT DID NOT MAKE…
You say Moses is a god and Jesus is a god and neither made or created the heavens or the earth.
This passage clearly states those gods that did not make or create the heavens and the earth will perish.
WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,18:49) David, how do you interpret Romans 11:36?
HI PAUL.
Could you be mores specific? If you think that this scripture in some way conflicts with what I believe, then if you could point it out? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at?Quote Here are problems with your example: a Seller depends on the agent, because the SELLER cannot professionally sell a home and gain the most profitable outcome by selling it themselves.
a Seller CANT, so he hires someone else who CAN.God is different, He has all the power to create for himself.
GOD CAN, yet he relied on someone else who CAN also?The Architech and the builder example also has the same flaws in comparison to God.
The Arichitech decides the model of the house, yet he CANT build, so you hire workers that CAN build what he measures and draws.However GOD can do ANYTHING himself, yet RELIED on someone else to do EVERYTHING for Him?
I indeed can sell my house. But I have other things I could be doing. So I appointed the Realtor to do it for me (the seller.)
Similarly, God could be king over whatever he chooses. But in some respects, he has “appointed” his son “king” over others. It's not that God can't handle it, as you assert. And neither does that have anything to do with my argument.
To make it clear, it's a comparison showing that sometimes in life, the “seller” (creator) authorizes and appoints someone else to do the work, yet, they retain the sole title of “seller” or “creator.” My example shows that nicely, as that in fact is the case in this example.
“The scripture dictates that only Jehovah “by himself”, “Alone” and “None other” created all things.”–WJ
I will answer your question the moment you answer mine:
“And this is the reason why he lifted up his hand against the king: Solo·mon HIMSELF HAD BUILT the Mound.” (1 KI 11:27)
WJ, May I ask you: Who actually built the mound?
Solomon himself had built the mound.
BUT, WE KNOW he used workers who actually did the building.Do you think the king of the universe could appoint the building work to his son?
Do you think it could be said that God is the Creator, but Jesus was the master worker “THROUGH” whom the work was done?“The scripture dictates that only Jehovah “by himself”, “Alone” and “None other” created all things.”–WJ
You had asked where that scripture was about “God alone” being wise. Really, only about 1/5th of Bible's translate it to give that impression. Most translate it to convey: “the only wise God,” which of course gives a different meaning. But anywhere, the NWT and others (there are a few below) translate it as such:
“God is the only one who is wise.” (Worldwide English (New Testament))
“to God, alone wise.” New King James
“to God only wise.” King James
“May the glory be to God, who alone is wise!” (Common English Bible)
“God alone is wise.” (GOD'S WORD translation)My argument (which I've used many times in various trinity threads) is that when it says the “true God” or “God alone is wise” it is speaking in RELATIVE terms, since we know others are wise, and since we know others (angels, human judges) were called gods. It's speaking RELATIVELY. But, I concede that the argument above isn't horribly strong given that most Bibles translate this differently. I know this isn't the only example of such a case however. I just can't seem to locate the other examples right now.
IN SCRIPTURE, JEHOVAH IS CALLED THE “CREATOR” WHO “CREATED” EVERYTHING.
Jesus is NOT called those things repeatedly, or even ever.
The “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON” was “THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD.” (REV 3:14)
REV 4:11: IT WAS BECAUSE OF “GOD'S WILL” THAT EVERYTHING EXISTS AND WAS CREATED. Similarly:
Psalm 33:6: “By the word of Jehovah the heavens themselves were made, and by the spirit of his mouth all their army.”
It was evidently to His only-begotten Son that Jehovah said, “Let us make man in our image.”—Ge 1:26.
GOD (THE CREATOR) CREATED “THROUGH” CHRIST. (JOHN 1:3,10; COL 1:16)
ILLUSTRATION:
I (THE SELLER) WILL SELL MY HOUSE “THROUGH” A REAL ESTATE AGENT. IT IS MY “WILL” AND PURPOSE TO SELL IT, AND IT IS BY MY WORDS AND FUNDING CAUSES IT TO BE CARRIED OUT.
CHRIST IS NOT THE CREATOR and MY REAL ESTATE AGENT IS NOT THE “SELLER.” ALL THE PAPERWORK SAYS I AM THE LEGAL SELLER. And all the paperwork says Jesus is the one “through” whom it was carried out. The paperwork never says that Jesus is the “Creator” any more than the paperworks says the Realtor is the “seller.”I COULD SAY THAT IT WAS SOLD “BY” ME, BUT I WOULD NEVER SAY IT WAS SOLD “THROUGH” MYSELF. IT WAS SOLD “THROUGH” THE REALTOR.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,07:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 28 2011,02:39) Quote (shimmer @ May 28 2011,18:09) Its not what people teach but the way they teach it.
That's an interesting view. I'm curious, why do you think that? To my mind it's what people teach that is of far more importance, as salvation depends may on it. You could deliver the wrong message in a loving way and be complicit in sending someone to hell.Apologetics is not all beer and skittles. The reality is you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. (Matthew 10:34-36)
Good post, Paul. I have intimated the same thing to Shimmer before.
Mike and Is1,You don't understand my way of speech!
It's not the TRUTH that people speak but the way that they SPEAK IT!
I wasn't talking about false teachers!
I was talking about people who speak the truth.
Understand now?
As I said last night…
It's not my fault if people MISUNDERSTAND things.
Quote (shimmer @ May 29 2011,10:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,07:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 28 2011,02:39) Quote (shimmer @ May 28 2011,18:09) Its not what people teach but the way they teach it.
That's an interesting view. I'm curious, why do you think that? To my mind it's what people teach that is of far more importance, as salvation depends may on it. You could deliver the wrong message in a loving way and be complicit in sending someone to hell.Apologetics is not all beer and skittles. The reality is you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. (Matthew 10:34-36)
Good post, Paul. I have intimated the same thing to Shimmer before.
Mike and Is1,You don't understand my way of speech!
It's not the TRUTH that people speak but the way that they SPEAK IT!
I wasn't talking about false teachers!
I was talking about people who speak the truth.
Understand now?
As I said last night…
It's not my fault if people MISUNDERSTAND things.
And further,When I say 'the way they speak it',
I mean – Whats behind it – if you can understand that?
David, you would understand what I mean. To be a Jehovah's Witness you have to be a good example before you knock on doors right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,13:20) Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
1 John 1:3
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.Why does it not say that our fellowship is with the Father through His Son if we are hearing from the Father's words only. The Son has a mind separate from the Father and He always makes intercession for us…
Of course Jesus has a separate mind from the Father, Kathi; he is a separate being. But if Jesus IS God because our fellowship is also with him, then the “US” John mentions must also be God.And you should look up the word “intecede” once. You'll find that Jesus petitions and pleads with the Father in our behalf. Get it? One who is NOT “Almighty”, pleading with the One who is on our behalf.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
t8, I thought that you believed in the divinity of Christ and that He was uncreated. Do you now disbelieve that?
I hope so. “Divinity” has nothing to do with being “uncreated” in the first place. And there are many scriptures that speak of the creation of Jesus.mike
Mike,
Jesus is God because He is the only begotten Son of God the Father. Our fellowship with Him and His Father demonstrates that we do not have fellowship with the Father through the Son but AND the Son.I mentioned the part about the Son interceding for us, (which btw, is the ministry of His glorified humanity, not His divinity) because I was pointing out that the Son speaks His own mind to the Father and doesn't speak the Father's words right back to Him…He speaks His own mind to the Father when He intercedes for us. It wouldn't make sense to intercede for us to the Father by using the Father's own words spoken back to Him.
Also, true divinity definitely does have to do with being self-existing.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,13:23) Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,10:29) So saying the 'Godhead of Israel' is…, is proper.
Good point. Now if only the words “El” and “Elohim” meant “Godhead”, you'd have a good start on this doctrine you're creating.mike
Well, they might imply Godhead. It is a plural word used with a singular pronoun. El Shaddai could also imply 'Godhead.' Even 'the Lord God' could imply Godhead. Obviously it wasn't supposed to be all laid out nice and clear or there wouldn't have been a mystery about it, nor a need for faith to believe it. In the NT, Jesus says that no one knows the Father except Him and no one knows the Son except the Father.Matt 11:27
“ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN COMMITTED TO ME BY MY FATHER. NO ONE KNOWS THE SON EXCEPT THE FATHER, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON AND THOSE TO WHOM THE SON CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.”Kathi
Quote (david @ May 29 2011,08:43) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,18:49) David, how do you interpret Romans 11:36?
HI PAUL.
Could you be mores specific? If you think that this scripture in some way conflicts with what I believe, then if you could point it out? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at?
What's unspecific about me asking you to interpret a verse? I just want your understanding of it, that's all. What's the problem David?Quote (shimmer @ May 29 2011,09:23) Mike and Is1, You don't understand my way of speech!
It's not the TRUTH that people speak but the way that they SPEAK IT!
I wasn't talking about false teachers!
I was talking about people who speak the truth.
Understand now?
As I said last night…
It's not my fault if people MISUNDERSTAND things.
No, I understood you well. You appear to equate love with being nice to people, which is not the biblical definition. The best advice I can give you is to do a couple of scripture studies. Study:1. The theme of truth, and pay attention to the importance to which Yeshua, his followers and the OT & NT authors ascribe to it.
2. The manner which Yeshua, his follower and NT writers conduct themselves when contending for truth with detractors.
You'll discover that, biblically-speaking, truth is given much higher status than the feelings of people. Which is not to say that unfriendly engagement is the default setting, it's not. But it does tell you that truth itself is more important than the delivery mechanism.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2011,15:02) You say Moses is a god and Jesus is a god and neither made or created the heavens or the earth. This passage clearly states those gods that did not make or create the heavens and the earth will perish.
No, it is the scriptures that call Jesus, Moses, Samuel, Deborah and some of God's righteous angels “gods”. If you want to take that scripture to mean God will wipe out some of his righteous servants, then go for it. I personally know that it speaks of man-made idols, because it says so in the previous verses.This is how NETBible translates it:
NET © You people of Israel should tell those nations this: ‘These gods did not make heaven and earth. They will disappear from the earth and from under the heavens.’And the “these gods”, according to the NET scholars, apply to the aforementioned idols:
This passage is carefully structured and placed to contrast the Lord who is living and eternal (v. 10) and made the heavens and earth (v. 12) with the idols who did not and will disappear.Keith, read the whole note #2 in NETNotes. It's quite interesting as a whole.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,16:59)
I mentioned the part about the Son interceding for us, (which btw, is the ministry of His glorified humanity, not His divinity)
What exactly does that mean? Is Jesus not divine now? Is he not inteceding for us now? I don't get how you can even make a claim like this. Jesus isn't human anymore, but a divine spirit being who STILL pleads and petitions his own God on our behalf.And none of us have ever claimed that Jesus isn't his own individual being with his own mind, or that he's a “puppet” (except maybe Gene). Where is this argument coming from?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,16:59)
Also, true divinity definitely does have to do with being self-existing.
Good one, Kathi! 
As I'm sure you know, that was not what I was saying. What is this “self-existing” phrase all about? You were claiming “from eternity”, which I understood. You'll have to educate me on your understanding of “self-existing”.mike
Mike,
Jesus always had His divinity nature and with the incarnation, He also took on the nature of humanity. He although glorified, still has these two natures even now and that is one reason He calls us 'brethren.' According to His humanity, He is our mediator/intercessor/High Priest/Brother/the Lamb…according to His divinity He is Judge, everlasting Father, the First and the Last, Lord, God as the Son, etc.The 'puppet' comment was from what t8 alluded to. He didn't mention puppet but suggested that everything that Jesus says is just a repetition of what the Father told Him to say. At least that is what I understood him to say.
Actually we were talking about being 'uncreated.' If something is self-existing, then it came from nothing but itself. I am not sure what you mean when you have so much trouble with the idea of something coming 'from eternity.' What do you call the period of time before the beginning of the heavens and the earth's day one?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,09:59) Mike,
Jesus is God because He is the only begotten Son of God the Father.
No he isn't.
He is the son OF God, the Christ.
This is the truth that the enemy wants to destroy because besides being the truth, it is the foundation of the Church, the very agency that has the power to destroy the works of the evil one. He is the Father of lies and he will even elevate his enemy (Jesus) to make him God to accomplish this. No good thing comes from a lie and if he can get the Church to believe his lies, then they have no powewr to destroy his works and he can also use them to fulfil his own destructive will.You may not teach the Trinity, but the Binity is just as much a lie and this makes you just as guilty of teaching false doctrine.Why not just humble yourself and let scripture have its way. There is one God the Father, you cannot change this. He is the one true God and that one true God sent his son.
What is wrong with believing that there is one God the Father as we are meant to? What spirit drives a person to oppose this one simple truth?
I have noticed that mankind likes to meddle with truth and thus thousands of years later we have a supermarket of doctrine called Babylon with no end of new products in sight. My advice is to come out of her and do not participate.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,12:39) Mike,
Jesus always had His divinity nature and with the incarnation, He also took on the nature of humanity. He although glorified, still has these two natures even now and that is one reason He calls us 'brethren.' According to His humanity, He is our mediator/intercessor/High Priest/Brother/the Lamb…according to His divinity He is Judge, everlasting Father, the First and the Last, Lord, God as the Son, etc.
Possessing or partaking of divine nature does not make one YHWH. You could be called theos qualitatively, but not THEOS the person.Likewise, we can be called mankind because of our nature, and thus we are adam in a qualitative sense, but we are not Adam the person.
Similarly devils are not the Devil and Jesus is not God.
It is amazing how many people trip over this, but scripture testifies many times to this difference and thus the Devil has a field day confusing people and causing divisions, and allowing doctrines of demons to thrive.
However it also has to be said that God hands people over to such doctrines because of the state of their heart. He gives us the desires of our heart and hands people over to lies when they embrace them.
The curse of rejecting truth, is to believe the lie.
t8,
Jesus is also called YHWH AND has divine nature. Having divine nature exactly like the Father does mean that one is God. Partaking of it does not. Jesus is referred to as our great God and Savior, soooo…that was written by Peter, not satan. Satan would love for you to miss that. You might be interested in reading the ancient Syriac historical document that I put up for everyone yesterday. It was written by Peter too. You can find that here:https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3873
Cheers,
KathiQuote What is wrong with believing that there is one God the Father as we are meant to? You miss the fullness of God and you deny the deity of Christ. You might as well be Jewish looking for a messiah that they thought was to have earthly parents, mother and father. They didn't accept the possibility that God could be His Father because that would make Him equal to God the Father IN NATURE.
Kathi
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