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Hi All,
This thread is to urge Keith to show support for a claim he often makes about John 1:1.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
The phrase “in the beginning” surely doesn't mean the earth is from eternity, right?John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.Keith, how does the same phrase in John 1:1-2 teach that the Word was from eternity?
mike
The term 'Beginning' means 'From when it began'.
The term 'Eternity' means 'For ever'.
Eternity can be 'from the beginning … Until For everMORE'
So one can say, 'I will serve the Lord for eternity' but that does not imply that that service WAS from Eternity, from past, but from THAT MOMENT that the service began.
'Beginning' naturally implies a start – a point when something was initiated.
Eternity 'past' cannot have a beginning so 'From Eternity' means 'From Forever', 'From such a time that it is inconsequential as a measurable period as pertains to the understanding of the listener'There is a third measure: 'From Ancient times'. This is the same as 'From Eternity'.
However, as can be seen from dissecting the definitions – even 'Eternity' and 'from Ancient times' allows for a FORCED meaning of having some sort of 'Beginning' – so nothing can be fully discounted 100% but always: Context Context Context!
To add:
One can say, 'You have been saying that same thing from forever'Clearly, the speaker did not mean to imply that the sayer has been living 'Forever' but just that (Sloppily) that the sayer has been saying what they are saying from such a time that no one can remember them saying anything different…
'Was there a time (!) when you ever said anything different?' – then there was not a time – then it was from forever…And here it sweeps over into ''From YOUR beginning…”
Is Man not an 'Eternal Sinner' yet he was not CREATED with Sin and heveas not ETERNAL…
furthermore, he will not be IN ETERNAL SIN, because Jesus bought his freedom from it.And 'Eternal Torment' does not mean the Soul will be tormented forever but that it will not EXIST… which is meaning eternally cut off (Destroyed) from the presence of God.
And Jesus is NOW (After his resurrection from the dead) the “Eternal Son”…
What type of Son was he before then?
What 'Son' was he then 'from Eternity' or even 'From the Beginning'?
Hi mike
You have to take John 1:1, 2 in its context. Verse three gives us the reason John said the Word that was with God and was God, and was there in the beginning with God
All things came into being through Him, and ”apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being”.
Notice the big highlighted part Mike? John makes it doubly clear that “all things” means “all things” because he clarifies his statement with…
”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.
Do you see that little word “Nothing”? It is the Greek word “heis” which is the Greek numerical number “1”.
In other words John is saying very clearly… “…Apart from him not ONE (heis) THING came into being that has come into being. Therefore Jesus was before all things including time, space and matter. John clarifies that this does not include the Father and Jesus in verse 1 and 2 when he clearly says the same Word was with the Father in the beginning of all things.
…all things were created by him, and for him: ”And HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist”. Col 1:16, 17
Since Time, Matter, and Space is included in the ”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.
Then Jesus was before time meaning eternity past! Anything that was before the begining had no beginning, that is Johns point!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2011,09:29) Anything that was before the begining had no beginning, that is Johns point!
Then the earth itself has no beginning Keith. Because, according to Gen 1:1, the earth was created (past tense) in the beginning.When Jesus says certain disciples had been with him “since the beginning”, then that means they also had no beginning, right?
Keith, John was smart enough to know that as the Son OF God, anything that was created through Jesus was created AFTER God had already begotten His Son first. You are apparently NOT smart enough to know this.
mike
It is amazing how being stubborn rather than being open to the truth in one's doctrine has the same affect as being unintelligent.
God does hand people over to foolishness if they pursue it.Quote (Istari @ April 30 2011,04:48) The term 'Beginning' means 'From when it began'. The term 'Eternity' means 'For ever'.
Eternity can be 'from the beginning … Until For everMORE'
So one can say, 'I will serve the Lord for eternity' but that does not imply that that service WAS from Eternity, from past, but from THAT MOMENT that the service began.
'Beginning' naturally implies a start – a point when something was initiated.
Eternity 'past' cannot have a beginning so 'From Eternity' means 'From Forever', 'From such a time that it is inconsequential as a measurable period as pertains to the understanding of the listener'There is a third measure: 'From Ancient times'. This is the same as 'From Eternity'.
However, as can be seen from dissecting the definitions – even 'Eternity' and 'from Ancient times' allows for a FORCED meaning of having some sort of 'Beginning' – so nothing can be fully discounted 100% but always: Context Context Context!
Istarii would say that the beginning start at the start of time,
and that eternity is prior to that, not for ever
only God the almighty is from all ways. no beginning,no end
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2011,13:00) Hi All, This thread is to urge Keith to show support for a claim he often makes about John 1:1.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
The phrase “in the beginning” surely doesn't mean the earth is from eternity, right?John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.Keith, how does the same phrase in John 1:1-2 teach that the Word was from eternity?
mike
An outworking of Einstein's general theory of relativity is that time, space and matter are inter-related and any one component cannot exist without the other. So when Yeshua brought “all things” into existence (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 etc etc) that would include time (i.e time began at the creation of all things). It logically follows then that as He is the agent of creation He must have preceded time itself – had no beginning in it – and, by definition, is a timeless being.Hi Paul,
It's been a while, huh?
I hope all is well with you. No scripture says that Jesus “brought all things into existence”. Scripture teaches that all things are created THROUGH Jesus by his God.Jesus is not the Creator, but a part of the creation himself. He was the first thing his God ever created.
Have you thought this through? If creation came “through” Him then, at the very least, He was involved in the creative act. Jesus logically cannot be a creature then, right? You cannot be involved in the creation of yourself!….
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,11:17) Hi Paul, It's been a while, huh?
I hope all is well with you. No scripture says that Jesus “brought all things into existence”. Scripture teaches that all things are created THROUGH Jesus by his God.Jesus is not the Creator, but a part of the creation himself. He was the first thing his God ever created.
Another way to look at it – if “ALL THINGS” came through/by Him, logically He cannot Himself be a “thing”. The word “all” completely refutes it.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:22) It's been a while, huh? I hope all is well with you. No scripture says that Jesus “brought all things into existence”. Scripture teaches that all things are created THROUGH Jesus by his God.
The Watchtower understand the logical implication of Col 1:16 that's why they bracket the word “other” between “all” and “things” in their NWT paraphrase. This is in spite of the fact that the two Greek words for “other” (heteros and allos) are not found in any manuscripts, it flies in the face of the context of the passage and in fact forces an opposite interpretation of Paul's intended conveyance.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,11:17) Hi Paul, It's been a while, huh?
I hope all is well with you. No scripture says that Jesus “brought all things into existence”. Scripture teaches that all things are created THROUGH Jesus by his God.Jesus is not the Creator, but a part of the creation himself. He was the first thing his God ever created.
Another way to look at it – if “ALL THINGS” came through/by Him, logically He cannot Himself be a “thing”. The word “all” completely refutes it.
Acts 4 NIV
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Paul, there is a specific person that Peter and John prayed to here. That person is listed in verse 24, right? Jesus is obviously not that person they prayed TO, for in verse 30, he is listed as a different person THROUGH WHOM they prayed? He is listed as the “servant” of this person they prayed TO.
So if Jesus is not the God they prayed TO, then Jesus must be included in the “EVERYTHING” in heaven and earth that was made BY the God they prayed TO.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,12:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,11:17) Hi Paul, It's been a while, huh?
I hope all is well with you. No scripture says that Jesus “brought all things into existence”. Scripture teaches that all things are created THROUGH Jesus by his God.Jesus is not the Creator, but a part of the creation himself. He was the first thing his God ever created.
Another way to look at it – if “ALL THINGS” came through/by Him, logically He cannot Himself be a “thing”. The word “all” completely refutes it.
Acts 4 NIV
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Paul, there is a specific person that Peter and John prayed to here. That person is listed in verse 24, right? Jesus is obviously not that person they prayed TO, for in verse 30, he is listed as a different person THROUGH WHOM they prayed? He is listed as the “servant” of this person they prayed TO.
So if Jesus is not the God they prayed TO, then Jesus must be included in the “EVERYTHING” in heaven and earth that was made BY the God they prayed TO.
You haven't addressed the point. Let's try another approach. Was Jesus involved in creation? In what capacity?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,12:50) So if Jesus is not the God they prayed TO, then Jesus must be included in the “EVERYTHING” in heaven and earth that was made BY the God they prayed TO.
This assertion has an unstated premise – namely that God is unipersonal. This premise has not been substantiated.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,10:52) An outworking of Einstein's general theory of relativity is that time, space and matter are inter-related and any one component cannot exist without the other. So when Yeshua brought “all things” into existence (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 etc etc) that would include time (i.e time began at the creation of all things). It logically follows then that as He is the agent of creation He must have preceded time itself – had no beginning in it – and, by definition, is a timeless being.
Looks correct.Jesus was the first work of the Father. Then through him, God created all things. Yes I agree that this did not include Jesus/Word.
Some of the early church fathers put it like this:
For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,19:36) The Watchtower understand the logical implication of Col 1:16 that's why they bracket the word “other” between “all” and “things” in their NWT paraphrase. This is in spite of the fact that the two Greek words for “other” (heteros and allos) are not found in any manuscripts, it flies in the face of the context of the passage and in fact forces an opposite interpretation of Paul's intended conveyance.
Leviticus 11 NIV
20 “‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. 21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.Paul, the bolded word “other” above isn't in the original text. Yet many translations add it for clarification. Gill says: But all other flying creeping things,…. Excepting the four sorts before mentioned, wherefore we rightly supply the word “other”.
Wesley's Notes says: 11:23 All other – That is, which have not those legs above and besides their feet mentioned, Lev 11:21.
The NWT renders it correctly. Scripture speaks of Jesus being created, brought forth, begotten, born, being a Son, and having a beginning. Not one of those things could ever be said about God Almighty.
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