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Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,10:10) Sure Ed, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.
HI DBF,Theomatics(numbers relating to God) in conjunction with
The AKJV Bible text illustrates who אלהים ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63 is!ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = YHVH(63)
Genesis 1:1 In 23 the 33 beginning 81 God 26 created 56 the 33 heaven 55 = 307
[23+33+81+26+33+55=307(63rd Prime number)] Theomatically equaling YHVH(63)!The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63; “YHVH is GOD”.
YHVH is God's Name (יהוה) translated into English; as the Hebrew lacks vowels.GOD’s most sacred Holy Name [יהוה] was given to us directly from the Hebrew language.
Correctly translating Hebrew into other languages can be difficult however. Some basic
linguistical rules need to be considered when translating Hebrew texts. These include a lack
of spacing between words, as a general rule has no written vowels and the basic direction
in which Hebrew is written (opposite: from right to left). Hebrew word spacing is a modern
advent that distinguishes one word from the next, aiding both translators and multi-linguists
alike. Unwritten “implied” vowel sounds are a concern because, correct pronunciations of
Hebrew words are at risk. This point is made because the correct pronunciation was thought
to be lost, which led only to translators’ interpretations.GOD’s Name (יהוה) transliterates directly into English as YHVH because the Hebrew alphabet
lacks vowels. Hebrew has No [W] sound, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.[יהוה] GOD’s Name [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey is pronounced YÄ-hä-vā & [יה] YÄ
The identity of יהוה=26(YHVH) is “GOD”=26 spoken as YÄ-hä-vā: where ä sounds like
that of the word “ah” and the other ā sounds like the vowel in the word “hay”.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,02:02) Good Morning Mike, Ok, let's go with what you say is true about YHWH Elohim being a name linked together…..YHWH God, ok?
Then Ruwach Elohim should be treated the same and should be a name….Spirit God….which would be logical and consistent with the treatment of the linguistics.
Good afternoon Big Wave Dave,“Ruwach Elohim” means “spirit OF God”, as made clear by the 70 scholars who translated the LXX. In Gen 1:2, the LXX uses the genetive form of “God”, making the verse in English read, “…And the Spirit OF God was hovering over the waters…”
Compare that with Hosea 12:5 which says,
As for YHVH God Almighty, YHVH is the name by which he is remembered!
The LXX does NOT use the genetive form of “God” in that verse, so in English, we DON'T add the word “of” in front of it.
So it is the Spirit OF God, but Jehovah God. Again, it is NOT “Spirit God” and “Jehovah OF God”.
Do you understand this so far? Just to make sure, I'll use the President Obama analogy again.
“President Obama” heard the bad news today. The “spirit OF the President” was troubled upon hearing it.
Do you see we have only ONE President, and his NAME is Obama…….hence “President Obama”. That President has a spirit……hence “spirit OF the President”.
Now let's use the same exact sentence about God.
“Jehovah God” heard the bad news today. The “Spirit OF God” was troubled upon hearing it.
Again we have only ONE God, and His NAME is Jehovah……hence “Jehovah God”. That God has a spirit…….hence “Spirit OF God”.
And just to make double sure you understand this, I'll put both sentences together.
“President Obama” heard the bad news today.
“Jehovah God”
“Title/Name”The “spirit OF the President” was troubled upon hearing it.
“Spirit OF God”
“Posession/Owner”Do you agree with this so far?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07) Hi David, So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' …
'and they said they created everything THRU Their son'
'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing!
Hi David,I agree with Ed here, and if you are honest, you will admit that “Elohim” is never called a “THEY”. Nor is the Holy Spirit called a “SHE” that I'm aware of.
For you to say the scriptures say “THEY said” and “THEIR Son” is not “embelishing” as Ed so nicely puts it, but falsifying scriptures. Well if that ain't a slap in the face of the thread entitled “Truth Check”.
mike
Mike,
I am not a Hebrew expert and could not explain everything to perfection. Ask Ed. He knows that there isn't an “of” in the Masoretic text. Here is Hosea 12:5 in Hebrew and the words YHWH Elohim are together:
ויהוה אלהי הצבאות יהוה זכרו׃
Literal: And YHWH Elohim the hosts YHWH remember.
HaShem = the name; so by saying name in this sentence in English it doesn't exist….and is incorrectly applied. Ask Ed, he even posted many things about Shem and the word meaning “name”.
Hsa 12:5 Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name.
With the word Elohim using one of our limited pronouns is frustrating. For the Supreme Being, Elohim is considered a “majestic plural” when all other times it is denoted plural. If I used “She” it would eliminate the existence of the male essence YHWH which is “He”. By using “They” it erases the fact that Elohim is ONE. However, Elohim does consist of YHWH AND Spirit.
So to make sure that neither one of the essences is omitted I use “They” and “Their”. If I used only He and His I would be equally amiss in the application of information, no?
So, no I couldn't agree with Spirit of Obama.
Since this is what you want to believe, please apply the same linguistic rule to YHWH Elohim….you would say the YHWH of Obama. Do you agree with this? Or if you say, Obama's spirit then say Obama's YHWH.
Translators try to take what is written and smooth it over to make sense in our language and by doing so they don't follow the Hebrew construct. Since you have your own language translators you can see for yourself word-for-word how it looks in Hebrew to English without relying on what someone else said.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,20:38) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07) Hi David, So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' …
'and they said they created everything THRU Their son'
'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing!
Hi David,I agree with Ed here, and if you are honest, you will admit that “Elohim” is never called a “THEY”. Nor is the Holy Spirit called a “SHE” that I'm aware of.
For you to say the scriptures say “THEY said” and “THEIR Son” is not “embelishing” as Ed so nicely puts it, but falsifying scriptures. Well if that ain't a slap in the face of the thread entitled “Truth Check”.
mike
Mike,I just posted earlier the problem with “pronouns” for the word Elohim.
Look how when Elohim is speaking “He” says US and OUR
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
I will ask you to explain it, ok?
In both sentences there is a plurality speaking (US and OUR) but only the “pronoun” HE is used. And we know that Elohim is plural, yet one by the image we are created in: Male and Female.
Does this not clearly show there are TWO essences? Also, the word by definition being singular shows that WITHIN the ONE Elohim there are TWO essences.
And as for Ed calling the above “embellishing” that's a laugh. He still can't find out that Spirit is feminine and calls Spirit masculine and God, the Father….showing how little he really knows. Spirit Elohim is clearly a separate person from YHWH Elohim Gen 1:2 and Gen 2:4 where you first meet these two separate entities.
You brought up Hosea 12:5 and it didn't show anything different than what I have been saying. Even “proves” that Elohim is the name to be remembered.
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,01:18) Mike, And as for Ed calling the above “embellishing” that's a laugh.
Hi DBF,How quickly we forget what we say; huh?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,02:39) Mike, All of Genesis is showing how Elohim created everything,,,,which means BOTH essences of Elohim did the creating,,,and they said they created everything THRU Their son.
Hi David,So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' …
'and they said they created everything THRU Their son'
'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,20:38) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07) Hi David, So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' …
'and they said they created everything THRU Their son'
'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing!
Hi David,I agree with Ed here, and if you are honest, you will admit that “Elohim” is never called a “THEY”. Nor is the Holy Spirit called a “SHE” that I'm aware of.
For you to say the scriptures say “THEY said” and “THEIR Son” is not “embelishing” as Ed so nicely puts it, but falsifying scriptures. Well if that ain't a slap in the face of the thread entitled “Truth Check”.
mike
Hi Mike,I am honest, will you be honest, too, ok?
What would be the pronoun for someone that says, “Let US make man in OUR image”? Since US and OUR are plural the pronoun shouldn't be “He” now should it?
Wouldn't it be “They”?
And since Elohim is doing the talking and Elohim is translated “God” and Jesus is the son of God, wouldn't Jesus be “THEIR” “US” or “OUR” son? No embellishment.
Love and peace…
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,00:14) Mike, I am not a Hebrew expert and could not explain everything to perfection. Ask Ed. He knows that there isn't an “of” in the Masoretic text.
HaShem = the name; so by saying name in this sentence in English it doesn't exist….and is incorrectly applied. Ask Ed, he even posted many things about Shem and the word meaning “name”.
Hi DBF,On the one hand you ask me to help you establish truth,
and with the other hand you attack me; what saith the Scriptures concerning this?
James 3:11 Doth a fountain (such as Ed J) send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? (John 7:38-39)Sweet and bitter water can (according to DBF) come from the same place;
but what saith the Scriptures concerning DBF's faulty belief structure?James 1:23-24 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer,
he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For
he beholdeth himself (Psalm 18:25-27), and goeth his way,
and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. (James 1:8)Psalm 18:25-27 With the merciful thou(YHVH) will show thyself merciful;
with an upright man thou(YHVH) will show thyself upright; With the pure
thou(YHVH) will show thyself pure; and with the froward thou(YHVH) will show
thyself froward. For thou will save the afflicted people; but will bring down high looks.
'You' apparently are seeing your own high looks David! If you DON'T like what you see, REPENT! (Is.54:17 / Is.27:4-5)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,01:52) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,01:18) Mike, And as for Ed calling the above “embellishing” that's a laugh.
Hi DBF,How quickly we forget what we say; huh?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,02:39) Mike, All of Genesis is showing how Elohim created everything,,,,which means BOTH essences of Elohim did the creating,,,and they said they created everything THRU Their son.
Hi David,So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' …
'and they said they created everything THRU Their son'
'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi David,You're addressing the 'wrong' point.
Address this point if you are honest!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,02:26) Hi Mike, I am honest, will you be honest, too, ok?
And since Elohim is doing the talking and Elohim is translated “God” and Jesus is the son of God, wouldn't Jesus be “THEIR” “US” or “OUR” son? No embellishment.
Love and peace…
Hi DBF,Do you see any mention of 'a Son' in Genesis 1:1 through Gen:1:31?
If you are to insist on declaring 'yourself' to be honest, then admit you did indeed embellish on this point!Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,10:10) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:45) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,02:39) Mike, All of Genesis is showing how Elohim created everything,,,,which means BOTH essences of Elohim did the creating,,,and they said they created everything THRU Their son.
Hi DBF,Could you show us all the “Bible verse” where 'they' said this?
Sure Ed,Since you don't seem to know how to do word searches I will place the verses where Elohim (who is the entity with both essences) spoke or did action.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:3 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Gen 1:4 God (Elohim) saw that the light was good; and God (Elohim) separated the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night.
Gen 1:6 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Gen 1:7 God (Elohim) made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
Gen 1:8 God (Elohim) called the expanse heaven.
Gen 1:9 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
Gen 1:10 God (Elohim) called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God (Elohim) saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, [fn] plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so.
Gen 1:14 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
Gen 1:16 God (Elohim) made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.Gen 1:17 God (Elohim) placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
Gen 1:18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God (Elohim) saw that it was good.
Gen 1:20 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let the waters….
Gen 1:21 God (Elohim) created the great sea monsters…and God (Elohim) saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 God (Elohim) blessed them, saying,
Gen 1:24 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures
Gen 1:25 God (Elohim) made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 Then God (ELOHIM) said, “Let Us make man in Our image…
Gen 1:27 God (Elohim) created man in His own image, in the image of God (Elohim) He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 God (Elohim) blessed them; and God (Elohim) said to them,
Gen 1:29 Then God (Elohim) said, “Behold,
Gen 1:31 God (Elohim) saw all that He had madeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,20:31) Good afternoon Big Wave Dave, “Ruwach Elohim” means “spirit OF God”, as made clear by the 70 scholars who translated the LXX. In Gen 1:2, the LXX uses the genetive form of “God”, making the verse in English read, “…And the Spirit OF God was hovering over the waters…” (Mike, please check with Ed, he fought months with people showing them that the word “OF” does not exist and is inserted by the translators. Here I go directly to the Hebrew but you defer to LXX, why? This is Greek, too.)
“Jehovah God” heard the bad news today. The “Spirit OF God” was troubled upon hearing it.
Again we have only ONE God, and His NAME is Jehovah……hence “Jehovah God”. That God has a spirit…….hence “Spirit OF God”.
And just to make double sure you understand this, I'll put both sentences together.
“President Obama” heard the bad news today.
“Jehovah God”
“Title/Name”The “spirit OF the President” was troubled upon hearing it.
“Spirit OF God”
“Posession/Owner”Do you agree with this so far?
mike
Mike,Again, the word “OF” is inserted to conform to our language usage. Ruwach Elohim is how it is in Hebrew in Gen 1:2 and it is YHWH Elohim in Gen 2:4.
But if you wanted to, you could, see Spirit Elohim as a separate entity in the same way that you see YHWH Elohim as a separate entity.
You don't have a problem with LORD God as being one entity but you refuse the same treatment for Spirit Elohim. Why?
Why Spirit isn't shown as “She” is because every time Spirit is used it doesn't follow up with ANY pronouns….to have done so would have been redundant…..like saying, “David He”….
Do yourself a favor and look at each time Spirit is used and you will see that there isn't a follow-up sentence in which to use a pronoun.
However, since Spirit Elohim consists of these 7 spirits:
Spirit (of) YHWH
Fear (of) YHWH
Power/Strength
Knowledge
Understanding
Counsel
WisdomYou will find that all of these nouns are feminine….and in Proverbs you will see plenty of “Shes” following each spirit.
But, I already know how this will be treated…..these are characteristics, etc and everything will be denied and negated by opinions…not Scriptures. (However, you will see 7 spirits in front of God's throne in Revelation.)
Until you realize that Spirit Elohim and YHWH Elohim are separate essences you will keep putting Spirit Elohim as part of YHWH Elohim. But, because you put “OF” you keep making the word genitive (possessive) which it isn't. It is its own separate entity. The Scriptures have it that way but you want to change it (along with translators) when you put it in English….and add the “of”. If you didn't do that you could see that these two separate entities comprise the ONE entity called “God”, Elohim.
You can use Obama all you like, but I prefer the Bible and how it is written. But to humor you once:
President (God) Obama (YHWH) is the order here. In the Bible the order is YHWH Elohim and is joined as ONE entity. YOU are chosing to separate President Obama into two aspects of title/name whereas YHWH Elohim is either a complete title or a complete name.
Also, you continue to misapply YHWH Elohim and Spirit Elohim as they are written in Hebrew. But, I do appreciate your efforts Mike. But, whatever way you treat YHWH Elohim give Spirit Elohim the same application, ok? AND I will agree with you as long as the application is consistent. Even if you want to make both of them genitive in usage….I'll agree….just be consistent.
The problem you will find is that if you show consistency then both Spirit and YHWH are “PARTS” of Elohim. However for me that is how the word Elohim is defined (noun, feminine AND masculine, singular) and agrees with the verses in the Bible.
The problem that we will have is when you don't want to apply consistency for Spirit Elohim (Ruwach Elohim) and YHWH Elohim.
And just like your Hosea 12 example, translators add many words to conform to OUR usage.
Mike, I am not being sarcastic nor fecitious but I do appreciate your efforts in thinking and trying to find Scriptures.
You will find nothing can change what is written in the Bible and I am not taking them out of context. Because you are a student of the Bible and are honest in your searches as t8 is I believe that God will show you what He has shown me.
In God's Love and mine,
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,03:09)
Why Spirit isn't shown as “She” is because every time Spirit is used it doesn't follow up with ANY pronouns….to have done so would have been redundant…..like saying, “David He”….
Hi DBF,What does Hebrews 12:9 say to you?
Heb.12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto “The Father of Spirits”, and live? (Luke 1:35 / Eph.4:6)Does Heb. 12:9 tell 'you' 'your she' has a dad?
Who is this “Father of Spirits”; YHVH perhaps?(117)יהוה האלהים = God Spirit(117)
John 4:24 God is Spirit=117: and they that
worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,00:14) So to make sure that neither one of the essences is omitted I use “They” and “Their”. If I used only He and His I would be equally amiss in the application of information, no?
Don't you get it David? There are no male and female “essences” of God. He is called “HE” in all of the scriptures David. The scriptures are inspired of God. Do you think you stumbled on to something that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all of the other Bible writers missed?God is a “HE” in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is an “IT” or a “HE”…..NEVER A “SHE”.
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,02:26) What would be the pronoun for someone that says, “Let US make man in OUR image”? Since US and OUR are plural the pronoun shouldn't be “He” now should it? Wouldn't it be “They”?
Let's say you overheard a conversation I was having, but you were in a different room. You heard me say, “Let US go out and drive around in OUR car.”What would you think?
a. I was a male and female essence within myself.
b. I was still a singular “HE” talking TO SOMEONE ELSE.mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,03:09) Mike, Again, the word “OF” is inserted to conform to our language usage. Ruwach Elohim is how it is in Hebrew in Gen 1:2 and it is YHWH Elohim in Gen 2:4.
Why do you think the 70 scholars who translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek for the LXX made the “God” genetive in referrence to the Spirit? Why did they take “Ruwach Elohim” and make it say “Ruwach OF Elohim”?Kangaroo Jack told me that the LXX was quoted by Jesus and the disciples more often than the original Hebrew.
I don't want to keep repeating myself in two threads if possible, so I'll see ya in the debate thread you started.
If we go one point at a time, we'll get there.
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,03:09) President (God) Obama (YHWH) is the order here. In the Bible the order is YHWH Elohim and is joined as ONE entity. YOU are chosing to separate President Obama into two aspects of title/name whereas YHWH Elohim is either a complete title or a complete name.
No, it's exactly like “President Obama”……one title and one name. But if it helps, here are a few scriptures where it is put in the same order as “President Obama”…..as if that matters.
Joshua 22:22 NIV
“The Mighty One, God, the LORD! The Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to the LORD, do not spare us this day.1 Chronicles 13:6 NIV
David and all the Israelites with him went to Baalah of Judah (Kiriath Jearim) to bring up from there the ark of God the LORD, who is enthroned between the cherubim—the ark that is called by the Name.Psalm 85:8 NIV
I will listen to what God the LORD will say; he promises peace to his people, his saints— but let them not return to folly.Isaiah 42:5 NIV
This is what God the LORD says— he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:Do you notice that “Elohim YHVH” is always a “HE”, not a “they”?
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,03:09) Also, you continue to misapply YHWH Elohim and Spirit Elohim as they are written in Hebrew. But, I do appreciate your efforts Mike. But, whatever way you treat YHWH Elohim give Spirit Elohim the same application, ok?
Okay Big Wave Dave,As long as you give that same application to every instance in the Hebrew that the Greeks made it genetive and the English add the word “of”, okay? Here's just one of hundreds that you can start with:
NKJV Gen 5:1
This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.Now here is the Hebrew:
this book descendents adam god create god adam likeness god fashion
So don't bother adding OF the descendents OF Adam. And since we can't add “likeness OF God”, I guess we just came up with yet another “essence of God”. This one is the “Likeness Elohim”.
Come on David.
Okay, I'm done with this thread…..I'll deal with all of your points in the other one.peace and love,
mike
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