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Although, t8 keeps mentioning athiesm for some reason. It feels like an ad hominin type of attack on me by somehow connecting critical thought and study to atheism, as if to smear the idea that thinking is bad.
Quote So as I said before, you are exactly like the Atheist who thinks God is a trick of the mind and doesn't exist at all. I nowhere even hinted at what is suggested above. I don't know why you keep drawing such conclusions. Perhaps your belief in god is actually quite strongly connected to the ouija experience you think you remember, and so view my criticical analysis of it as an attack on your whole belief system.
I am only pointing out that every single thing today that people think is magic…is fake. At least, everything that has ever been on tv. And, definitely ouija boards. And all psychics as far as I can tell…etc.
….but, I will keep looking. (Although, I've been looking for 30 years, and so am growing less hopeful)
An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.
T8, Lets go one by one and ill show you the truth. I'll let you pick.
it does not matter how much you talk about this it will never come more than NOTHING AT ALL ,
this is why the skeptic side is more appropriate for those discussions
Quote Yes I am fully aware that tricks and cons are all about distractions and that in this case that woman would likely think it was miraculous. But can you use this as evidence to disprove all things t8, no, I can't, and nor do I want to. We will go through all things. I have time.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,11:14) it does not matter how much you talk about this it will never come more than NOTHING AT ALL , this is why the skeptic side is more appropriate for those discussions
What does “come more than NOTHING AT ALL” mean?What is “it”?
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,13:33) Quote Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture. I think it is condemned not because it is not real, but because it is real and hence why there are serious warnings given about getting involved in such things. Okay enough said about that. I still want to reiterate that yes I do believe that there is an industry out there that exploits all this for money and is largely based on fraud. But we could say the same thing about God. God is real. Visions are real. Prayer is real. But there is also a huge industry that exploits these for money too and it is largely fraudulent as well.
Acts 13:10
Elymas the SORCERER was full of “FRAUD” and villianyHe was a “sorcerer”
He was using “fraud”
He was a sorcerer
He was using fraud.
If he was using fraud, then this makes me think that he was just like exploitive magicians today–fraudulent.
t8, or anyone else. Wondering if you could comment on this?
No one has ever commented on this scripture.Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,06:16) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,11:14) it does not matter how much you talk about this it will never come more than NOTHING AT ALL , this is why the skeptic side is more appropriate for those discussions
What does “come more than NOTHING AT ALL” mean?What is “it”?
show me how USEFUL it is
show me what can it do to save your live before God and what is the potential of losing your live with it
show me what i would have lost not knowing that info
and wen I would have learn all of it ,how closer to God would I stand
to me the illusionist are trade people ,doing the job they like to do just like the undertaker,it does not mean that one as to rob the dead or the first one to exploiting his audience,
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,06:21) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,13:33) Quote Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture. I think it is condemned not because it is not real, but because it is real and hence why there are serious warnings given about getting involved in such things. Okay enough said about that. I still want to reiterate that yes I do believe that there is an industry out there that exploits all this for money and is largely based on fraud. But we could say the same thing about God. God is real. Visions are real. Prayer is real. But there is also a huge industry that exploits these for money too and it is largely fraudulent as well.
Acts 13:10
Elymas the SORCERER was full of “FRAUD” and villianyHe was a “sorcerer”
He was using “fraud”
He was a sorcerer
He was using fraud.
If he was using fraud, then this makes me think that he was just like exploitive magicians today–fraudulent.
t8, or anyone else. Wondering if you could comment on this?
No one has ever commented on this scripture.
what in the world you do not understand in this scripture that you are looking for a comment on itQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,11:30) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,06:21) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,13:33) Quote Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture. I think it is condemned not because it is not real, but because it is real and hence why there are serious warnings given about getting involved in such things. Okay enough said about that. I still want to reiterate that yes I do believe that there is an industry out there that exploits all this for money and is largely based on fraud. But we could say the same thing about God. God is real. Visions are real. Prayer is real. But there is also a huge industry that exploits these for money too and it is largely fraudulent as well.
Acts 13:10
Elymas the SORCERER was full of “FRAUD” and villianyHe was a “sorcerer”
He was using “fraud”
He was a sorcerer
He was using fraud.
If he was using fraud, then this makes me think that he was just like exploitive magicians today–fraudulent.
t8, or anyone else. Wondering if you could comment on this?
No one has ever commented on this scripture.
what in the world you do not understand in this scripture that you are looking for a comment on it
Pierre, many psychics today and other exploitive magic are fraudulent today. (They say they have supernatural power but do not). They are using deception or fraud, and not actually doing what they are pretending to.It's interesting to me that this sorcerer in the bible is said to have been using fraud. (If he had magical powers, why use deception)?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,11:27) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,06:16) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,11:14) it does not matter how much you talk about this it will never come more than NOTHING AT ALL , this is why the skeptic side is more appropriate for those discussions
What does “come more than NOTHING AT ALL” mean?What is “it”?
show me how USEFUL it isshow me what can it do to save your live before God and what is the potential of losing your live with it
show me what i would have lost not knowing that info
and wen I would have learn all of it ,how closer to God would I stand
to me the illusionist are trade people ,doing the job they like to do just like the undertaker,it does not mean that one as to rob the dead or the first one to exploiting his audience,
Terrarica, I am just someone who is interested in truth.And so, when people are being deceived or exploited, especially when it comes to these sorts of things, it frustrates me.
Terrarica, much of what you say here could be said of 95% of the threads on here.
This info won't bring you closer to God, but will bring you closer to reality. For me, deception, when not for entertainment, but when used to exploit, is bad. And when those around me are exploited or deceived, it bothers me.
T8,
How high did the glass go? (When David Blaine appeared to levitate off the ground it was 1 inch, but people later recalled it being several inches or a foot).
Whose board was it?
Who was the other person using it?
We're there alcohol or drugs involved?
What kind of glass? What material? How heavy?
What were your hand positions on the glass?
How well do you know the other person? Is he a joker? Does he like to prank people? Tell me about him?
What was your state of mind at the time? How old were you? How was your childhood?Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,13:21) Quote Tricks do not explain everything Never said they did. But ouija board, is explained by the ideomotor effect, memory, the love of stories, hit and miss confirmation bias, stooges, etc.
david, a ouija board is just a piece of plastic, cardboard, or some other material.Calling up spirits or the dead is forbidden. This is the difference.
You are not hitting the nail on the head because your replies ignore that which scripture forbids.
Deut 18:9-14
9 “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. 10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 “For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.Where does it say that these activities are detestable because of the ideomotor effect? It doesn't. They are detestable not for the reasons you are arguing.
Obviously, your argument is missing some crucial elements.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,10:50) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,14:34) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,10:28) T8: My 3 wishes:
1. IS THIS STATEMENT TRUE?: If its the spirits, they should be able to guide your hands no matter whether you can see or not, but if its people doing it unconsciously, the blindfold will screw things up.
2. Why do you think it doesn't work when the people are blindfolded?
3. Have you ever spent any time studying the ideomotor effect, or questioning how ouiji boards work?
Here they are again.
I would like to change my third question to T8 to this:3. If demons want to communicate with you and they can only do so through this board, my question is why? (did parker brothers make some sort of deal with the underworld, or what.)
Why do people need this board? If the spirit is moving your hand, why not just put a pencil in your hand? Or better yet, why even use a pencil if a spirit can move things? Why not ask the question without the board, asking it to move the pencil instead of your hand or your friends hand?Better question: why are two people used? Would this work with one person? Would it work much less good with one person?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 23 2012,12:21) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,13:21) Quote Tricks do not explain everything Never said they did. But ouija board, is explained by the ideomotor effect, memory, the love of stories, hit and miss confirmation bias, stooges, etc.
david, a ouija board is just a piece of plastic, cardboard, or some other material.Calling up spirits or the dead is forbidden. This is the difference.
You are not hitting the nail on the head because your replies ignore that which scripture forbids.
Deut 18:9-14
9 “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. 10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 “For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.Where does it say that these activities are detestable because of the ideomotor effect? It doesn't. They are detestable not for the reasons you are arguing.
Obviously, your argument is missing some crucial elements.
“Anyone can talk to the dead. It's getting them to talk back that is the trick.”I have never argued that any of these things are good or acceptable
I have only said that ouija boards do not work by spirits.
Magicians as a group hate mediums, spiritits, diviners, sorcerers and anyone who is full of fraud in this respect.
I can keep,saying that computers are demonized just as long as you can say ouija boards are. The scripture above doesn't mention computers or ouija boards.
I guess, I would like you to prove to me that ouija boards fit into hat category. Tell me in great detail about your personal experience.
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,15:21) T8, How high did the glass go? (When David Blaine appeared to levitate off the ground it was 1 inch, but people later recalled it being several inches or a foot).
Whose board was it?
Who was the other person using it?
We're there alcohol or drugs involved?
What kind of glass? What material? How heavy?
What were your hand positions on the glass?
How well do you know the other person? Is he a joker? Does he like to prank people? Tell me about him?
What was your state of mind at the time? How old were you? How was your childhood?
david, you can't teach evil spirits to jump through hoops. David Blaine is not teaching spirits to do this. He is using magic or whatever other label you care to use.Whose board was it?
There was no board. Read what I said again.Who was the other person using it?
A friend of mine from New Zealand. I went to school with him.We're there alcohol or drugs involved?
No drugs or alcohol involved.What kind of glass?
An empty vegemite glass I think. Might have been Marmite. The reason was all the wine glasses were smashed from previous seances so we got desperate and resorted to using other glasses. They worked just the same. My mother was extremely angry about this.What material?
Google Vegemite. It is a glass container about the size of a drinking glass, but a but narrower.How heavy?
About as heavy as a normal drinking glass.What were your hand positions on the glass?
Pinkie (littlest finger on the top of the glass only). That is how we always conducted this.How well do you know the other person?
Haven't been in contact for years now. But recently connected with his sister on Facebook. I have this guy's email address.Is he a joker?
No. I don't ever remember him pulling a prank before. He was Catholic. However, I was Atheist and I converted him to Atheism. Not sure what his belief system is now.Does he like to prank people?
Not really. I am sure he probably has from time to time as anyone else probably has.Tell me about him?
Your theory is that he is a trickster. This is getting quite entertaining watching you trying to convince me of something that is not true. This is how unbelief in anything works. Slap a label on it, give an aura of authority, and start asking intelligent looking questions that sway toward showing the person that they are deluded.What was your state of mind at the time?
I was a teenager living at home.How old were you?
18 or 19 perhaps.How was your childhood?
Generally not good. Brought up an Atheist and my dad was violent. Didn't enjoy my childhood except when I was at least 1km in distance from my dad.There you go david. What does your ideomotor algorithmic divinator calculator spit out for you.
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,15:39) I have only said that ouija boards do not work by spirits. Magicians as a group hate mediums, spiritits, diviners, sorcerers and anyone who is full of fraud in this respect.
I can keep,saying that computers are demonized just as long as you can say ouija boards are. The scripture above doesn't mention computers or ouija boards.
david, what part of ouija board, computers, or any other man made object is irrelevant. What is relevant is the communicating with spirits part.Communication can be done by life forms in many ways.
If I communicate with a dolphin using hand signals then that doesn't make my hands possessed with a dolphin spirit or something. If I communicate with a spirit, then the signals are irrelevant in that it is the act of communicating in anyway that is detestable.
You need to be able to separate out what is relevant and what is not. So far you are making a complete hash of this.
You so think you are onto something that you are just too excited right now to be able to reason, hence all the wild questions that are streaming from the last few days. Calm down a bit and you will be able to reason that objects are just that. And spirits are not to be messed with.
Two different things.
1 Corinthians 10
18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.Read this slowly david because like you say, an idol is in itself a man-made object that can neither see or answer just like a Ouija Board right. Yet these wooden dead idols were actually enabling sacrifice to demons which is an opposite view to the one you are presenting me with.
Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,07:14) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2012,11:30) Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2012,06:21) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,13:33) Quote Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture. I think it is condemned not because it is not real, but because it is real and hence why there are serious warnings given about getting involved in such things. Okay enough said about that. I still want to reiterate that yes I do believe that there is an industry out there that exploits all this for money and is largely based on fraud. But we could say the same thing about God. God is real. Visions are real. Prayer is real. But there is also a huge industry that exploits these for money too and it is largely fraudulent as well.
Acts 13:10
Elymas the SORCERER was full of “FRAUD” and villianyHe was a “sorcerer”
He was using “fraud”
He was a sorcerer
He was using fraud.
If he was using fraud, then this makes me think that he was just like exploitive magicians today–fraudulent.
t8, or anyone else. Wondering if you could comment on this?
No one has ever commented on this scripture.
what in the world you do not understand in this scripture that you are looking for a comment on it
Pierre, many psychics today and other exploitive magic are fraudulent today. (They say they have supernatural power but do not). They are using deception or fraud, and not actually doing what they are pretending to.It's interesting to me that this sorcerer in the bible is said to have been using fraud. (If he had magical powers, why use deception)?
all things becomes fraud wen you take away something that belong to someone else ,in this case the magician took away the glory of God ,
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