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Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 15 2010,23:14) Mike, Quote
The Literal Translation is unusual in that, as the name implies, it is a strictly literal translation of the original Hebrew and Greek texts. The Preface to the Second Edition states,
If a translation gives a present tense when the original gives a past, or a past when it has a present; a perfect for a future, or a future for a perfect; an a for a the, or a the for an a; an imperative for a subjunctive, or a subjunctive for an imperative; a verb for a noun, or a noun for a verb, it is clear that verbal inspiration is as much overlooked as if it had no existence. THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE VOID BY THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. [Emphases in original.]
UnquoteYoung's Literal Translation
Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that ye know and give credence to Me,
And understand that I am He,
Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.
Hi Shimmer,Read the exact Greek from the LXX in my previous post. Then you can judge for yourself whether or not you agree with Young. In this verse, I think Young has it right. But notice, it doesn't say none will be formed after God, just that there won't be any “after”, or “outliving” Him.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,03:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2010,16:23) Mike all those other gods were created and so they were made. We can only worship the unbegotten God through the begotten God.
Hi Kathi,Very good. So just make sure you only worship the One THROUGH the other, not “worship the other”.
mike
This is quite a curious statement coming from one who says that the Hebrews were “strict monotheists” (R# 8) and then says that they called angels “YHWH” (R# 9).So Mike wants us to believe that it was okay to call angels “YHWH” and profane “the Name” (Lev. 24:16) so long as the angels were not worshiped.
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Georg, Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Hi Jack,This is how you always do. You find one Bible reference, and then try to say that all references have to be judged in light of this one. You do it with the word “yalad”. Because in one scripture, the sea is metaphorically said to beget, you think that “yalad/beget” isn't literal anywhere else in scripture.
By the same token, just because “wisdom” is metaphorically compared to a good wife in one instance, you try to use the faulty reasoning that it can't be metphorically used for God's firstborn elsewhere.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,04:09) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 15 2010,23:14) Mike, Quote
The Literal Translation is unusual in that, as the name implies, it is a strictly literal translation of the original Hebrew and Greek texts. The Preface to the Second Edition states,
If a translation gives a present tense when the original gives a past, or a past when it has a present; a perfect for a future, or a future for a perfect; an a for a the, or a the for an a; an imperative for a subjunctive, or a subjunctive for an imperative; a verb for a noun, or a noun for a verb, it is clear that verbal inspiration is as much overlooked as if it had no existence. THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE VOID BY THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. [Emphases in original.]
UnquoteYoung's Literal Translation
Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that ye know and give credence to Me,
And understand that I am He,
Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.
Hi Shimmer,Read the exact Greek from the LXX in my previous post. Then you can judge for yourself whether or not you agree with Young. In this verse, I think Young has it right. But notice, it doesn't say none will be formed after God, just that there won't be any “after”, or “outliving” Him.
mike
Shimmer,Don't buy Mike's polytheism. He has departed from the NWT on which he was brought up and which he also endorses. It says,
Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.
There it is! The NWT which Mike himself endorses says that there continued to be no god after YHWH!
the Roo
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,04:15) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Georg, Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Hi Jack,This is how you always do. You find one Bible reference, and then try to say that all references have to be judged in light of this one. You do it with the word “yalad”. Because in one scripture, the sea is metaphorically said to beget, you think that “yalad/beget” isn't literal anywhere else in scripture.
By the same token, just because “wisdom” is metaphorically compared to a good wife in one instance, you try to use the faulty reasoning that it can't be metphorically used for God's firstborn elsewhere.
mike
No Mike! This is how you do. You quote people out of context. I also gave chapter 9 in that post and in a post to Georg before that. Wisdom is personified as a virtous woman in 8-9.the Roo
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 15 2010,23:45) KangarooJack, thanks, Didn't they find old scripture in some caves and it matched the older versions of what we have today, the Jehovah's Witnesses also have their own translation I think with changes made to fit their own doctrines.
Polytheistic ?
Hi Shimmer,NETBible is a web site that not only lists nine English translations side by side, but also the original Hebrew, Greek and Septuagint (which was the Greek translation of the original Hebrew OT before the NT was written). They do not include Young's, though. But Online Bible Study Tools is another helpful source that lists about 30 English translations side by side, and it includes both Young's and the New Jerusalem.
On both sites, you can click on the Strong number on any Greek or Hebrew word and see the many definitons it could be translated as. Then you can compare what the word actually could have meant with the various translations to see which one you think is closer to the meaning being conveyed.
Btw, don't buy into the hype about the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation, or NWT. It is a fine translation, and I quote from it often. 99% of the time, it says exactly what all the others do. But it is very helpful with those verses that the trinitarian translations try to bias. For example the one that says, “No one has understood God at any time, but God the One and Only, who is beside God, has made God known to us.” That is a paraphrase, but that nonsense is what the trinitarian NIV, which is usually a great translation, came up with for John 1:18.
But I like to use NetBible, http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mat&chapter=1 , because I can see the various English translations compared to the actual Greek and Hebrew. And if you put your cursor over the “footnotes” in the NET version, it will show you loads of info about various scriptures.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Aug. 16 2010,00:09) Mike, when you make a statement, you leave walloping holes for your opposers to walk through your argument.
Hi JA,Why don't you show me where I spoke “unscripturally”.
And don't forget, I didn't request any help from you…….I'm doing just fine. For me it's not about “winning” like it is for you. I don't “try to not leave any holes”. I speak from scripture, and if the one I'm discussing with has other scripture, then fine. I just want the truth JA, not to “win”.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 16 2010,04:19) No Mike! This is how you do. You quote people out of context. I also gave chapter 9 in that post and in a post to Georg before that. Wisdom is personified as a virtous woman in 8-9. the Roo
So your point is that since it was likened to a virtuous woman, wisdom can never be likened to anything else ever again?Jack said:
Quote
Shimmer,Don't buy Mike's polytheism. He has departed from the NWT on which he was brought up and which he also endorses. It says,
Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.
There it is! The NWT which Mike himself endorses says that there continued to be no god after YHWH!
the Roo
And Shimmer……..don't buy into anything Jack sells. Do you notice how he slams the NWT constantly, but then uses it when it suits him? Do you also notice how he won't respond to the actual LXX that I posted, now that he sees it doesn't really say what he claimed that it did? And do you notice how what he claimed the LXX said in the first place is not what it actually says?But instead of responding to the facts and scriptures, he finds his time better spent posting derogatory remarks about me personally.
Check out NETBIble, Shimmer. You will love it.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,04:45) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 16 2010,04:19) No Mike! This is how you do. You quote people out of context. I also gave chapter 9 in that post and in a post to Georg before that. Wisdom is personified as a virtous woman in 8-9. the Roo
So your point is that since it was likened to a virtuous woman, wisdom can never be likened to anything else ever again?
The point is that if it's not talking about Jesus then don't make it talk about Jesus. Pretty simple isn't it? If you were honest you would concede that your argument from Proverbs 8 is weak at best.Your whole theology is a mess Mikester! You said in R# 8 that the Hebrews were “strict monotheists” and then said that the Hebrews called angels “YHWH” (R# 9). Uh, as strict monotheists they would not have worshipped an angel NOR called an angel “YHWH.” The law that said, “do not worship them” also said, “do not take YHWH's name in vain.”
You are the most inconsistent person here. Inconsistency is always popping up with you.
the Roo
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,04:52) Jack said: Quote
Shimmer,Don't buy Mike's polytheism. He has departed from the NWT on which he was brought up and which he also endorses. It says,
Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.
There it is! The NWT which Mike himself endorses says that there continued to be no god after YHWH!
the Roo
And Shimmer……..don't buy into anything Jack sells. Do you notice how he slams the NWT constantly, but then uses it when it suits him? Do you also notice how he won't respond to the actual LXX that I posted, now that he sees it doesn't really say what he claimed that it did? And do you notice how what he claimed the LXX said in the first place is not what it actually says?But instead of responding to the facts and scriptures, he finds his time better spent posting derogatory remarks about me personally.
Check out NETBIble, Shimmer. You will love it.
mike
Where did you post the LXX?43:10 γενεσθε μοι μαρτυρες καγω μαρτυς λεγει κυριος ο θεος και ο παις ον εξελεξαμην ινα γνωτε και πιστευσητε και συνητε οτι εγω ειμι εμπροσθεν μου ουκ εγενετο αλλος θεος και μετ' εμε ουκ εσται
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/23_043.htm
The word I bolded is “yinomai.” It says that no god came into being after YHWH.
Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 16 2010,04:54) The point is that if it's not talking about Jesus then don't make it talk about Jesus. Pretty simple isn't it? If you were honest you would concede that your argument from Proverbs 8 is weak at best. Your whole theology is a mess Mikester! You said in R# 8 that the Hebrews were “strict monotheists” and then said that the Hebrews called angels “YHWH” (R# 9). Uh, as strict monotheists they would not have worshipped an angel NOR called an angel “YHWH.” The law that said, “do not worship them” also said, “do not take YHWH's name in vain.”
You are the most inconsistent person here. Inconsistency is always popping up with you.
Hi Roo,And my point is the same that I made about prophesies about the Christ being peppered in with more immediate prophesies about the Israelites.
The wisdom/Son of God metaphor is peppered in among other observations.
You say it's “weak”. I haven't really delved into that yet, but I know the early church “fathers” alluded to the Proverbs Wisdom verses being about God's Son.
And the Israelites referred to YHVH's messengers as YHVH, since the messenger was speaking from God and transmitting their responce directly to YHVH. But instead of running around using inflammatory statements, why don't you just wait until we debate it. I'm sure it will turn out the same as everything else we've debated………with you finding out that scripture and the most learned scholars disagree with you.
Remember this? The “plural of majesty” is not used in any scripture!” How about this one? “The LXX says no god will be begotten after me”. How about “yalad”? How about “monogenes”? You keep claiming I'm wrong and an idiot, but the scriptures and the early church “fathers” keep agreeing with me, not you. Hmmmm……..I've only been debating scripture for 8 months. I wonder how it will be when I actually know something.
mike
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,06:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:43) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
GeorgeAre you saying there was a time God did not have wisdom?
Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
It says the Lord brought wisdom forth not created, and what does “appointed from eternity mean” unless wisdom was from eternity?
It is pure nonsense to say Jesus was created which would make him of the created order like everything else.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him “nothing came into being that has come into being“. John 1:1-3
If “nothing came into being that has come into being” without him then he could not have been part of the created for he did not create himself.
What is your reason to believe that at some point from eternity God did not have wisdom?
WJ
“””Are you saying there was a time God did not have wisdom?”””
Did I say that? Where?The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?“””What is your reason to believe that at some point from eternity God did not have wisdom?”””
This is what you ask me, my point is just the opposite; if you believe that all these scriptures refer to wisdom, than you must believe that wisdom had a beginning. YOU'RE RIGHT, PURE NONSENSE.Georg
Hi Georg,
This thought about wisdom in Prov 8 that keeps coming to me is this:If I had all the wisdom in the world but was on a deserted island it would be only useful when I put it to use. Maybe the wisdom in Prov 8 was God's wisdom being put to use in the Son for the first use of it by the Son.
It isn't wisdom till it is useful, in other words.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 16 2010,04:59) Where did you post the LXX? 43:10 γενεσθε μοι μαρτυρες καγω μαρτυς λεγει κυριος ο θεος και ο παις ον εξελεξαμην ινα γνωτε και πιστευσητε και συνητε οτι εγω ειμι εμπροσθεν μου ουκ εγενετο αλλος θεος και μετ' εμε ουκ εσται
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/23_043.htm
The word I bolded is “yinomai.” It says that no god came into being after YHWH.
Roo
The blue words say, “and after me never exist”.Didn't you read the post? I put each Greek word with the Strong # and the English equivolent. It does say “begotten”, it's just that it says no gods were begotten before me, and after me none will exist.
mike
Ahh…ahhh…Mikebolle, where are you going…and please don't mislead Shimmer.
There is only one who is 'God'. Oh, why did they use the same words for 'similar' things?
Confusion is being brought in by the contimued rererence to 'God' as being any other than YHVH.
State clearly and simply that the TITLE 'GOD' or 'God' or 'god', means 'a Mighty One'.
Then state that any being with Power and Authority over others, can be called 'G/gO/oD/d' (Caps irrelevant in the initial context).
But there is only, quite naturally, One being who has Power and Authority over All Others (One Ring to rule them all).
To this one we write the title 'God', in basic propercase, first letter capped.To ALL others we write the title 'god', no caps. This to signify that their power and authority is from an external source, not of their own. It can be given them and it can be taken from them.
Further, embellishments. Terms like 'O God', 'Mighty God', 'our God', 'Your God', 'God of…', Must be read in context of the surrounding story.
A King could be spoken to thus, 'O God, may thy crown always remain bright!'. This is easily discernable as a human king but could be an aphorism to YHVH. Test it. Who is speaking and what is the context…ha, a visiting embassador from a neighbouring nation attending before the King of the nation being visited. So, 'o god' just means 'o mighty [king]'.A highly religious speaking student may call his master, 'my god'. It is clear this is not referring to that student's 'Almighty God', again, it is 'my [mighty Master]'
So what of the one Almighty God. How to distinquish Him from the others in context.
'Almighty God', 'The [One/Most high] God', 'LORD' (Scriptures: All caps). Pity, but handy for Satan, that using 'LORD' instead of YHVH seems to be in vogue, as this even now clashes with 'Lord' and 'lord'…some one knows why this is so…?'lest they should believe'..'yet not understand'
Mike, the more you try to explain, the more you cause confusion to those who are easily confused, and give credence to your detractors.
My advice, (hey…don't do it): Keep It Sweet'n Simple.
That means 'tight', like I told you, suggested… The 'temptation' to explain to the nth degree will outsmart you.
Satan is ever watchful for such vanity and pride, crouching at the door.
Now here is a question: Who will be there to pull you through?
Your own ego.
Who will be there to pull you away? Now, that is the more compelling question…
An unbegotten God cannot be matched by a begotten God (except in nature) or a created/made god. That is why Jesus says that His Father is His God. imo. An unbegotten God cannot be made, begotten or created, it is impossible.
Mike said:
Quote And my point is the same that I made about prophesies about the Christ being peppered in with more immediate prophesies about the Israelites.
In other words, just read into scripture anything you want.Mike:
Quote The wisdom/Son of God metaphor is peppered in among other observations.
You mean “wisdom/Daughter of God metaphor” for wisdom is feminine. Wisdom dwells with a female companion called “prudence” (vs. 12). Could Prudence be our Kathi?Mike:
Quote I haven't really delved into that yet, but I know the early church “fathers” alluded to the Proverbs Wisdom verses being about God's Son.
If you haven't delved in it yet then don't be so dogmatic about it.Mike:
Quote And the Israelites referred to YHVH's messengers as YHVH, since the messenger was speaking from God and transmitting their responce directly to YHVH. But instead of running around using inflammatory statements, why don't you just wait until we debate it.
You said that the Hebrews were “strict monotheists” and then said that they called angels by the name “YHWH.” Come on! Do you think that we are all stupid here? Profaning “the Name” was worthy of death (Lev. 24:16). You make no sense!Mike:
Quote You keep claiming I'm wrong and an idiot,
Have you been formally trained in the correct principles of biblical interpretation? Yes or no? It appears as if you have not because you can't even distinguish poetry from prose.Mike:
Quote “The LXX says no god will be begotten after me”.
Thank you Mike! My work is done! If no god was begotten after YHWH, then Jesus could not have been begotten after YHWH unless He is no god at all. So you should side with Gene and Marty that Jesus is no god at all.Your last quote above put a real big smile on my face.
the Roo
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 16 2010,05:28) Now here is a question: Who will be there to pull you through? Your own ego.
Who will be there to pull you away? Now, that is the more compelling question…
Oh Lord, please don't let it be someone who thinks Satan was your firstborn! Like I said before, either show where something I said was unscriptural, or leave me alone. I can't “mislead” Shimmer with scriptural truth, can I? But unlike you, I don't want her to believe a certain way just because I do. That's why I hope she uses the NETBible site. Then she'll have all the info she needs to make an informed decision.
mike
Hi All,
I would like to bring this out in the open. Jack claimed that the Septuagint has Is 45 saying, “There was no God formed before me, and there will be no god begotten after me”.
I then pasted the actual LXX and showed that that is NOT what it says.
Then I posted this to Jack about things he has been misinformed on:
Quote I'm sure it will turn out the same as everything else we've debated………with you finding out that scripture and the most learned scholars disagree with you. Remember this? The “plural of majesty” is not used in any scripture!” How about this one? “The LXX says no god will be begotten after me”. How about “yalad”? How about “monogenes”? You keep claiming I'm wrong and an idiot, but the scriptures and the early church “fathers” keep agreeing with me, not you.
He then took the statement HE made that I showed him to be false, and attributed it to ME…….right after I just showed him where it was wrong. He said:
Quote Mike:Quote
“The LXX says no god will be begotten after me”.Thank you Mike! My work is done! If no god was begotten after YHWH, then Jesus could not have been begotten after YHWH unless He is no god at all. So you should side with Gene and Marty that Jesus is no god at all.
Your last quote above put a real big smile on my face.
Not only does this show the dishonest way Jack works, but it shows that even in the face of the actual scriptural words that proved his statement wrong, he would still be willing to take “my” statement that “agreed” with him over scripture.
You have been warned Jack, please don't do this again.
mike
Btw Roo,
You didn't seem to respond to the fact the the early church “fathers” also think that Wisdom in Proverbs 8 refers to Jesus.
Why are you always against the early church “fathers”?
Why is it that I, while drawing my own conclusions from scripture, always later find out that it is the same conclusion the early church “fathers” came to?
Hmmmmmm………..
mike
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