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To All,
Can I ask what it is that is in dispute here?
Excuse me if I seem to be failing to understand – but is it not perfectly obvious what is being spoken of here:
“In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
” (…and derivatives)Jesus is the 'Firstborn' of the promise – the 'begotten one' – “Spiritual Son of God”.
Scriptures tells us that others will also become “Begotten of God, Spiritual Sons of the Father” and it will be through the works of Jesus – it is through his testament and the belief and faith of “them” that this will occur.
Therefore Jesus “Begets” them onto the father – “Firstfruit” of Jesus' works.The “Them” are the Disciples/Apostles – they are the “Firstfruit” – Then after will come many others – in fact just a little less than 144,000 more from among all the tribes, clans, nations and family of the whole inhabited earth.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 16 2010,13:39) To All, Can I ask what it is that is in dispute here?
Excuse me if I seem to be failing to understand – but is it not perfectly obvious what is being spoken of here:
“In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
” (…and derivatives)Jesus is the 'Firstborn' of the promise – the 'begotten one' – “Spiritual Son of God”.
Scriptures tells us that others will also become “Begotten of God, Spiritual Sons of the Father” and it will be through the works of Jesus – it is through his testament and the belief and faith of “them” that this will occur.
Therefore Jesus “Begets” them onto the father – “Firstfruit” of Jesus' works.The “Them” are the Disciples/Apostles – they are the “Firstfruit” – Then after will come many others – in fact just a little less than 144,000 more from among all the tribes, clans, nations and family of the whole inhabited earth.
JAYour points are correct!
What is being disputed is Mike and Kathi insist that the words “firstborn” (prōtotokos) and “begotten” (monogenes) in reference to Jesus is proof that he had a beginning or better yet that an asexual God brings birth to a god!
WJ
WJ,
Thanks for that – I do think that it is time that these “blocking” issues are put to bed.
Context, Context, Context (Why three times…!) Don't try to force fit the Scriptures and it will all become clear.
Force fitting will only lead to tripping yourself up later on – but the FF'er will be hoping that noone remembers what he said…
Context: Begotten – A child is born – comes into being from another.
Context; Begotten – A person is 'Set Apart', “Raised to the “preemenient/Primary/First/Senior/'The Firstborn'/'The inheritor'” position in Rank above similar in being.
Context: Begotten – A person is “Adopted”, “Taken up” into the 'care' of another – Become the 'Spiritual [child]' of another not his own.“Sweeten to Taste”?
“Apply as fitting” – not “Appy as Wanted”!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,05:44) Quote (JustAskin @ June 16 2010,13:39) To All, Can I ask what it is that is in dispute here?
Excuse me if I seem to be failing to understand – but is it not perfectly obvious what is being spoken of here:
“In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
” (…and derivatives)Jesus is the 'Firstborn' of the promise – the 'begotten one' – “Spiritual Son of God”.
Scriptures tells us that others will also become “Begotten of God, Spiritual Sons of the Father” and it will be through the works of Jesus – it is through his testament and the belief and faith of “them” that this will occur.
Therefore Jesus “Begets” them onto the father – “Firstfruit” of Jesus' works.The “Them” are the Disciples/Apostles – they are the “Firstfruit” – Then after will come many others – in fact just a little less than 144,000 more from among all the tribes, clans, nations and family of the whole inhabited earth.
JAYour points are correct!
What is being disputed is Mike and Kathi insist that the words “firstborn” (prōtotokos) and “begotten” (monogenes) in reference to Jesus is proof that he had a beginning or better yet that an asexual God brings birth to a god!
WJ
Keith,Your summary is correct and Mike and Kathi are dead wrong! ALL God's chosen firstborn sons in the old testament pre-existed their becoming His firstborn. There was no exception with Jesus.
Jack
Jack,
I would hope that at this level of 'discussion' that any of us does NOT believe that Jesus 'PreExisted' in Spiritual form.
But yet we know that Satan is never far with his mixing bowl.
—————————————————————————————— ————————–
“Begotten of God” (Spiritual Birth) before his being
—————————————————————————————— ————————–
“Begotten of the Holy Spirit/Born of Mary”(Human Birth of another) as flesh and blood Man, and also
“Begotten of the Father at his Anointing with the Holy Spirit at the river Jordan,(Adoption?), and also
—————————————————————————————— ————————–
“Begotten of the Father” at his “Spiritual Rebirth”, “Raised in Rank above his Brethren”, Preeminent, First… from the Dead.
—————————————————————————————— ————————–Three times – always Three – is it not said in some place: “Third time pays for all”?
Quote (JustAskin @ June 16 2010,15:01) Jack, I would hope that at this level of 'discussion' that any of us does NOT believe that Jesus 'PreExisted' in Spiritual form.
But yet we know that Satan is never far with his mixing bowl.
—————————————————————————————— ————————–
“Begotten of God” (Spiritual Birth) before his being
—————————————————————————————— ————————–
“Begotten of the Holy Spirit/Born of Mary”(Human Birth of another) as flesh and blood Man, and also
“Begotten of the Father at his Anointing with the Holy Spirit at the river Jordan,(Adoption?), and also
—————————————————————————————— ————————–
“Begotten of the Father” at his “Spiritual Rebirth”, “Raised in Rank above his Brethren”, Preeminent, First… from the Dead.
—————————————————————————————— ————————–Three times – always Three – is it not said in some place: “Third time pays for all”?
JANow what was you saying about context?
Where in context is Jesus
Quote “Begotten of God” (Spiritual Birth) before his being 
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 17 2010,06:25) [/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,05:44) JustAskin,June wrote:To All,
Can I ask what it is that is in dispute here?
Excuse me if I seem to be failing to understand – but is it not perfectly obvious what is being spoken of here:
“In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
” (…and derivatives)Jesus is the 'Firstborn' of the promise – the 'begotten one' – “Spiritual Son of God”.
Scriptures tells us that others will also become “Begotten of God, Spiritual Sons of the Father” and it will be through the works of Jesus – it is through his testament and the belief and faith of “them” that this will occur.
Therefore Jesus “Begets” them onto the father – “Firstfruit” of Jesus' works.The “Them” are the Disciples/Apostles – they are the “Firstfruit” – Then after will come many others – in fact just a little less than 144,000 more from among all the tribes, clans, nations and family of the whole inhabited earth.
JAYour points are correct!
What is being disputed is Mike and Kathi insist that the words “firstborn” (prōtotokos) and “begotten” (monogenes) in reference to Jesus is proof that he had a beginning or better yet that an asexual God brings birth to a god!
WJ
Keith,Your summary is correct and Mike and Kathi are dead wrong! ALL God's chosen firstborn sons in the old testament pre-existed their becoming His firstborn. There was no exception with Jesus.
Moreover, ALL God's firstborn sons were first of all members of the human family. Again, Jesus was no exception. He is God's Firstborn Son “according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3).
Pre-incarnation: Decreed to be God's Son
At the Jordan: Anointed as God's Son
Resurrection and Exaltation: Installed as God's officiating Son
Quote The Father''s decree declaring the Messiah to be His Son is identified with Christ's exaltation…the declaration of redemptive sonship prophesied in Psalm 2:7 was conferred upon Him in time WHEN HE COMPLETED HIS MESSIANIC WORK (Reformation Study Bible, p. 1934) Quote The term [only begotten Son] as Calvin suggests, and as maintained by Prof. Alexander, refers here only to His being constituted King – to the act of coronation (Barnes Notes on Psalms, vol1. p. 20) Jack
WJ,
You are right…did you notice that it is lined off…
And I said 'three' yet there are four…
Yes, the first is out of context…How many others would have spotted that the 'three' are when he is 'man'.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 16 2010,18:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2010,13:28) His name is YHVH and He is the ONLY One with that name, no matter how you, Paul and Roo try to twist the scriptures.
What scriptural texts have I twisted? The list them and describe exactly how they have been twisted by me.Or retract this baseless allegation.
Did you not tell me that Zec 2 and Zec 7 have Jesus as Jehovah? They don't, so to me that's twisting scriptures. Am I wrong? If so, I apologize and retract.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2010,11:42) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 16 2010,18:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2010,13:28) His name is YHVH and He is the ONLY One with that name, no matter how you, Paul and Roo try to twist the scriptures.
What scriptural texts have I twisted? The list them and describe exactly how they have been twisted by me.Or retract this baseless allegation.
Did you not tell me that Zec 2 and Zec 7 have Jesus as Jehovah? They don't, so to me that's twisting scriptures. Am I wrong? If so, I apologize and retract.mike
No, I didn't. Apology accepted. Don't do it again please.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2010,12:48) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 15 2010,05:50) Kathi said: Quote The Son didn't stop being a son to become a son in the flesh.
It was by becoming flesh that Jesus became a Son. Paul said that he was “born according to the seed of David and decreed to be the Son of God” (Rom. 1).Jesus could not have neen God's Son before becoming flesh because ONLY MEN ARE SONS OF GOD.
the Roo
I thought Dennison already schooled you on this. I guess it didn't take.
aghh……..no comment.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 17 2010,13:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2010,12:48) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 15 2010,05:50) Kathi said: Quote The Son didn't stop being a son to become a son in the flesh.
It was by becoming flesh that Jesus became a Son. Paul said that he was “born according to the seed of David and decreed to be the Son of God” (Rom. 1).Jesus could not have neen God's Son before becoming flesh because ONLY MEN ARE SONS OF GOD.
the Roo
I thought Dennison already schooled you on this. I guess it didn't take.
aghh……..no comment.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 16 2010,17:00) Is this concept repeated elsewhere in Scriptures?
Can anyone, someone give one other example, please?
Hi JA,It's repeated many times. But what you fail to understand, even though it's been pointed out very clearly by Kathi, is that EVERY time this is the case, it's no secret. The scripture plainly explain that so-and-so, who was APPOINTED the firstborn or chief, was APPOINTED such BECAUSE the actual firstborn messed up or for whatever other reason.
a. Is it EVER said that Jesus was APPOINTED the only begotten Son of God?
b. Is it EVER said that Jesus was APPOINTED as the firstborn of anything?
Like Kathi has so clearly asserted, in cases where there is no evidence of a “real” firstborn being replaced by the APPOINTED one, then the default definition must hold true. And the default definition of “firstborn” is “the one born first”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,05:44) What is being disputed is Mike and Kathi insist that the words “firstborn” (prōtotokos) and “begotten” (monogenes) in reference to Jesus is proof that he had a beginning or better yet that an asexual God brings birth to a god!
Hi WJ,And isn't it funny how the “early experts” that you guys keep posting quotes from agree with me and Kathi?
mike
Hi KJ,
True Sons of God are those who are given to share in the Spirit of God-angels or men.[Jb38, Jb 1-2, Gen6]God no longer accepts sonship via Adam[Jn8.42 f]
Quote (JustAskin @ June 17 2010,06:17) Thanks for that – I do think that it is time that these “blocking” issues are put to bed.
Amen to that, brother.What do you say we all stop “blocking” and take the words for what they actually say?
Jesus told Nicodemus that God “GAVE” His only begotten Son. You who think begotten is a title Jesus recieved after being raise have a paradox to contend with.
Even if Jesus was speaking in some kind of a prophetic past tense,(which would seem weird since he also told Nicodemus that the Son of Man WOULD BE lifted up), you have to figure out how, after Jesus was raised, God “GAVE” him.
Stop “blocking” guys. Read “For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son” and understand how clearly and simply the scripture tells us that Jesus was ALREADY God's only begotten Son, and therefore He gave him as a sacrifice for our sins. God never “GAVE” Jesus AFTER he was raised.
peace and love,
mikeKathi, KJ, all,
Know this and understand this:
Anyone, everyone who is without sin, in the eyes of the Father, is a 'Son of God'.
Adam was the firstborn/begotten human Son of God, then he sinned and thereby losing the 'firstborn: first in rank order' (but not first born by human birth)
Jesus was born/ begotten Sinless and was therefore 'Son of God', in fact, 'the Only Begotten [Human] Son of God', as no other was sinless.
In the fullness of time, those of whom it is predestined and hold to the testament of Christ, will also be 'Begotten Sons of God', 'set apart' as God's special human Sons in the Spirit, 'firstfriut of Christ'.
Hi JA,
Jesus was born of woman and subject to all our temptations.
He is an overcomer the one we follow.
Myths of godmen are falseQuote (SimplyForgiven @ June 17 2010,13:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2010,12:48) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 15 2010,05:50) Kathi said: Quote The Son didn't stop being a son to become a son in the flesh.
It was by becoming flesh that Jesus became a Son. Paul said that he was “born according to the seed of David and decreed to be the Son of God” (Rom. 1).Jesus could not have neen God's Son before becoming flesh because ONLY MEN ARE SONS OF GOD.
the Roo
I thought Dennison already schooled you on this. I guess it didn't take.
aghh……..no comment.
Hi SF,Here is more for you (as you have asked)…
The three promises to Abraham's seed were… God said that his seed would be as plenty as the…1) “Dust of the Earth”=170 (Gen. 3:16) Lord(49)+God(26)+Almighty(95) [49+26+95=170] (Rev. 4:8)
2) “Stars of Heaven”=153 (Gen. 26:4) “Sons of God” in Hebrew: בני ה אלהים=153 Beni Ha-Elohim.
3) “Sand of the Sea”=117 (Gen. 32:12) “God the Father”=117 (117=יהוה האלהים) (Rev.20:8)It's interesting to note here: The very same language is used in Rev. 20:8 where Satan goes about in battle…
to deceive the nations, He is going against God’s people (the people of 117=יהוה האלהים) to deceive,
whose NUMBER IS AS the “SAND OF THE SEA”=117. “JEHOVAH”=95 IS “ALMIGHTY”=95!God bless
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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