Proof jesus is god from paul&#39;s mouth?

Participant

Hi Kat,
There are several threads on that subject.
I will bring some up.

Calling Jesus our Lord does not make him so.

Many will call him LORD LORD and he will not know them.

Obedience to his words given through Peter at pentecost will matter.

September 2, 2009 at 6:28 am#143737

Participant

Quote (katjo @ Sep. 02 2009,14:50)

NO I do not believe in three Gods. and Jesus is my Lord and Saviour! If you believe in one God why didnt you answer me when I ask you why your scripture quotes: And the word was A GOD? Hmm Thats more than One! Why didnt you answer any scripture I qoutted you earlier? Revelation is all about jesus, Thas why the first chapter says; “the Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST” NOT “BY JESUS CHRIST”.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

Jesus is STILL learning from the One True God the Father, YHWH. Jesus didn't know the time of his return, and he cannot even make his OWN revelations, he receives them from his Father.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

When you make a promise, it is YOUR WORD, and you keep it WITH you, and it stays WITH you until the time your word is fulfilled. Your word defines you, it represents you, keep your word and it brings you glory, lose it and reap disgrace. Your word is your bond, and YHWH bonded His word to mankind. In the beginning existed YHWH’s word of a promise to eternal life. This promise was carried WITH Him for quite some time, YHWH even SPOKE about it to the prophets, until one day the promise became manifested in the flesh. The promise that YHWH had made in the beginning of eternal life was fulfilled in the MAN Jesus, for through the Father, He raised up for us a savior unto Israel.

Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–

Katjo you had said, “And the word was A GOD”

The verse says that the word “WAS God”, and scripture tells us that there exists ONLY ONE TRUE God, the Father!

John 1:1 is eloquently speaking of YHWH and His OWN words.

1 Cor 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' “

September 2, 2009 at 2:16 pm#143777

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Jodi……….Why can't these people get it? It's like something is preventing them from seeing it. So simple so clear and still not comprehended, Amazing!..IMO

peace and love to you and your Jodi……………………..gene

September 2, 2009 at 4:05 pm#143782

Participant

Jodi lee said;

Quote

The Father GAVE Jesus ALL things including Eternal Life.

Anathema! Now I know that you are a full blown Gnostic. Jesus was Himself the Eternal Life which was with the Father in the beginning:

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1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

This clearly says that Jesus was “that eternal life” which was “with the Father from the beginning.” In history He was “manifested.”

The Eternal Life” (Jesus) is called “the true God.”

Quote

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

John said he writes to create faith and confidence in the Son of God

Quote

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. (1 John 5:13-15)

John's epistle was written to create faith in the Son of God which would be idolatrous if He was not Himself God. Then he creates confidence in the Son of God by saying that we may ask things of Him. This would also be idolatrous if Jesus were not Himself God.

Christians will always have Gnostics to torment them.

thinker

September 2, 2009 at 5:05 pm#143791

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,11:07)

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 01 2009,18:08)

My point is that Jesus is not the One True God, only the Father is. We should look to scripture to see in what context Jesus is referred to as being a god.

There is no scripture that says Jesus is “a God”!

In most of the scriptures claiming Jesus as God it is a direct reference to him as “God” with the definite article.

And if you believe that Hebrew Monotheism includes the acknowledgement of other Gods, you are mistaken.

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

Did YHWH change his mind?

and…

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4

Jesus in no sense of the word was promoting Polytheism by quoting Ps 82, for they were wicked kings and judges, and the Psalmist said they would die like men, because they were men. Jesus was rebuking them for their Hypocrisy because those who claimed to know the law were wanting to kill him for claiming that he was the Son of God.

Paul who also wrote 1 Cor 8:4 said…

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13

And contextually coupled together with the GSR, Titus 2:13 along with other scriptures are unambiguous in claiming that Jesus is the Great God and Saviour!

Good Morning WJ,

“DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH.” Exod 23:13

No, I do not believe that YHWH changed His mind. Please read carefully so you can properly understand my position.

Isaiah 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, I gird thee, and thou hast not known Me. 6 So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I am Jehovah, and there is none else, 7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' 8 Drop, ye heavens, from above, And clouds do cause righteousness to flow, Earth openeth, and they are fruitful, Salvation and righteousness spring up together, I, Jehovah, have prepared it.

2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayeth before Jehovah, and saith, `O Jehovah, God of Israel, inhabiting the cherubs, Thou art God Himself — Thyself alone –– to all the kingdoms of the earth: Thou hast made the heavens and the earth.

2Ki 19:19 And now, O Jehovah our God, save us, we pray Thee, out of his hand, and know do all kingdoms of the earth that Thou art Jehovah God – Thyself alone.'

Psalms 86:10 For great art Thou, and doing wonders, Thou art God Thyself alone. 11 Show me, O Jehovah, Thy way, I walk in Thy truth, My heart doth rejoice to fear Thy name.

Isa 37:16 Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, inhabiting the cherubs, Thou art God Himself — Thyself alone — to all kingdoms of the earth, Thou hast made the heavens and the earth.

Isa 37:20 And now, Jehovah our God, save us from his hand, and all kingdoms of the earth do know that Thou art Jehovah, Thyself alone.'

Let’s keep in mind that it was YHWH who said that He would raise up a human of the seed of David to whom He would be a Father to. This makes YHWH the Father of Jesus.

Scripture clearly shows us that YHWH is the ONLY being that HAS supernatural powers. He ALONE possessed the powers to make heaven and earth. He ALONE has POWER and wisdom. He ALONE possesses the means to do great signs and wonders. He ALONE holds the power to make peace and create calamity. YHWH does NOT want us to believe that there exist ANY other being who possesses on their OWN such powers. However men have indeed made gods in their own minds that possess such powers. Men WORSHIP these beings because they revere them for their powers. However YHWH makes it clear that He is the ONLY being that DESRVES such worship because He is the ONLY being who ACTUALLY has such powers.

WJ, I believe the following is a crucial point,

EVERY time Jesus is referred to as being a god, it is through him AS Jesus of Nazareth, as the CHOSEN HUMAN Messiah. Not as him existing before the world began and being the One True God!

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus—

2 Pet 1:1 “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“

Here is another crucial point,

Jesus could not be the ONE TRUE God, because ALL the work that Jesus did was through his Father’s powers and his Father’s wisdom!! The word god is a label denoting supernatural powers, it is not some sacred name that represents in every instance that which is the One True God. Jesus was called a god through having the One True God’s powers, but he was not a god through his OWN means, for we are told clearly from the OT, that there exists only One of those.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, “You are gods” '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

The Father sanctified Jesus, and it is in the Father’s authority to refer to a man as a god! That is exactly what we SEE, the human Messiah is being called god through being given the powers of YHWH. In the above scripture Jesus is telling the Jews that he is not confessing to be YHWH, but the Son of YHWH.

There is NO polytheism here. YHWH called MEN gods, are you denying this WJ? Was YHWH declaring that these MEN have their OWN powers? Of course not. There is NO god that exists with their OWN powers but YHWH. To believe that there is, is to create a false god. The men were seen as gods, because they had been GIVEN the powers of the One and only true God!

1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all thi
ngs, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Since Jesus did NOTHING of himself, everything he did came through the powers and planning of YHWH, that would obviously make him NOT the ONE TRUE God. This knowledge and understanding of Jesus keeps us in worshipping YHWH correctly as the God who ALONE is the SOURCE of ALL Powers, Wisdom and Might.

September 2, 2009 at 5:27 pm#143798

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 03 2009,04:05)

Jodi lee said;

Quote

The Father GAVE Jesus ALL things including Eternal Life.

Anathema! Now I know that you are a full blown Gnostic. Jesus was Himself the Eternal Life which was with the Father in the beginning:

Quote

This clearly says that Jesus was “that eternal life” which was “with the Father from the beginning.” In history He was “manifested.”

The Eternal Life” (Jesus) is called “the true God.”

Quote

John said he writes to create faith and confidence in the Son of God

Quote

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Christians will always have Gnostics to torment them.

thinker

I believe this understanding reflects more clearly the truth.

Don’t get your him’s mixed up,

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent

Clearly 1 John 5:20 should be understood like this,

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know the Father who is true, and we are in the Father who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God (the Father) and eternal life.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Eternal Life is the gift of the Father, it comes from the Father through His planning and work in Jesus Christ.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Thinker, you need to get out of your doctrine and HEAR the word, read and believe it for what it actually says!!

September 2, 2009 at 5:43 pm#143799

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 02 2009,13:05)

There is NO polytheism here. YHWH called MEN gods, are you denying this WJ?

Yes, I am denying that YHWH ever called men “gods, or the Father is contradicting himself! And before you throw up Moses, check it out, YHWH did not call Moses “God”, he said Moses would be as “a god” to Pharaoh because Pharaoh believed in other gods!

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

You make YHWH into an idiot, for you are saying that YHWH says do not even mention the name of other Gods and yet you claim he is calling men “gods” and that Jesus is teaching us to do so.

Ps 82 is YHWH speaking of kings and judges in a derogatory way since as you say men do not have any supernatural powers, therefore they were not “gods” at all, and in fact were ungodly men and the Psalmist said they would die like men!

Jesus is making the same derogatory point, for the Hypocrites believed that there were other “gods”, and Jesus refers to “Their Law” which may have been the “Talmud” a compilation of their written laws and traditions.

The Father or Jesus was not promoting “Polytheism”…

Polytheism is the **BELIEF IN** and worship of multiple deities, called gods and goddesses. Source

Jesus is not called “a god” anywhere in scriptures as I said, and Paul clearly states…

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4

What part of the “No God but One” is unclear to you Jodi?

Now, all you have to do is figure out why Jesus is called God more than once and even by the Father!

I know the answer, but you just want to write pages of apologetics to get around the clear scriptures. So live with the contradictions if you like.

But for me, I believe all of the scriptures in their simplest reading without all the special pleading and inference!

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13

September 2, 2009 at 6:08 pm#143800

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 03 2009,05:27)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 03 2009,04:05)

Jodi lee said;

Quote

The Father GAVE Jesus ALL things including Eternal Life.

Anathema! Now I know that you are a full blown Gnostic. Jesus was Himself the Eternal Life which was with the Father in the beginning:

Quote

This clearly says that Jesus was “that eternal life” which was “with the Father from the beginning.” In history He was “manifested.”

The Eternal Life” (Jesus) is called “the true God.”

Quote

John said he writes to create faith and confidence in the Son of God

Quote

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Christians will always have Gnostics to torment them.

thinker

I believe this understanding reflects more clearly the truth.

Don’t get your him’s mixed up,

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent

Clearly 1 John 5:20 should be understood like this,

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Eternal Life is the gift of the Father, it comes from the Father through His planning and work in Jesus Christ.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you

Thinker, you need to get out of your doctrine and HEAR the word, read and believe it for what it actually says!!

Jodi Lee,
I do not have my “hims” mixed up. The apostle John clearly stated his purpose for writing this section. His purpose was to create faith and confidence in the Son of God. This would be idolatry if Jesus were not God. Right? Isn't our faith and confidence to be toward God alone?

The Father was the only true God before He exalted Jesus. At the Father's right hand Jesus is EQUAL with the Father and dispenses salvation according to His own will.

Quote

For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL (John 5:21)

At the right hand of the Father the Son decides who will and will not be saved. So watch yourself:

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Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him (Psalm 2:12)

So you see that the Son has the power to be angry with you and to DESTROY you. Moreover, David said that those who put their trust in Him are “blessed.” By your logic king David called us to idolatry for it was forbidden to trust in anyone but God.

Therefore, when examing it all in context we see that Jesus is the “true God” in 1 John 5:20. You illegitimately inserted the word “Father.” The expression “He is the true God and eternal life” refers to the Son. John explicitly called the Son “that eternal life which was with the Father.”

You need to explain why David, a king of Israel would pronounce blessing on those who put their trust in the Son. This would be idolatry according to your logic. And you must explain also why an apostle of Christ would write a book to incite people to believe in the Son and to have confidence toward Him in prayer. This also is idolatry according to your logic. For faith and confidence is to be directed toward God ALONE.

No matter what you think I am safe. Even if Christ is not properly God as you say He is in the least Representative-God. As such I am to treat Him as if He has been appointed to be my God. Therefore, the trinitarian is on safe ground. But the anti-trinitarians grope around denying Christ's exaltation and calling into question His Lordship and everything else.

thinker

September 2, 2009 at 6:22 pm#143801

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi Jack

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 02 2009,14:08)

Therefore, when examing it all in context we see Jesus is the “true God” in 1 John 5:20. You illegitimately inserted the word “Father.” The expression “He is the true God and eternal life” refers to the Son. John explicitly called the Son “that eternal life which was with the Father.”

True, the context clearly shows Jesus who is “the Eternal Life', is True God!

The NET gives us more information on this…

The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

Source NET

But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Zech 7:11

Blessings WJ

September 2, 2009 at 7:11 pm#143811

Participant

Hi WJ,
Neither should we hearken to false teachers and their additions to scripture.

September 2, 2009 at 7:30 pm#143815

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,07:11)

Hi WJ,
Neither should we hearken to false teachers and their additions to scripture.

Then throw out John's epistles.

thinker

September 2, 2009 at 7:35 pm#143820

Participant

Hi TT,
Where did John teach God is a trinity?

September 2, 2009 at 7:40 pm#143822

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2009,15:35)

Hi TT,
Where did John teach God is a trinity?

John taught there were “three”, but you deny that the Father, and Son and Holy Spirit exist as three, yet One.
WJ

September 2, 2009 at 7:46 pm#143825

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,07:35)

Hi TT,
Where did John teach God is a trinity?

Did not John say that he wrote his book to incite people to faith in the Son of God and confidence toward Him (5:13-15)?

Would John incite us to believe in and have confidence toward someone other than God?

thinker

September 2, 2009 at 8:00 pm#143827

Participant

Hi TT,
Unconvinced.
In Jn 14 we are told by Jesus to believe in God AND himself.

September 2, 2009 at 8:04 pm#143829

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2009,05:43)

Hi Jodi

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

You make YHWH into an idiot, for you are saying that YHWH says do not even mention the name of other Gods and yet you claim he is calling men “gods” and that Jesus is teaching us to do so.

The Father or Jesus was not promoting “Polytheism”…

Polytheism is the **BELIEF IN** and worship of multiple deities, called gods and goddesses. Source

Jesus is not called “a god” anywhere in scriptures as I said, and Paul clearly states…

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and “ THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE”. 1 Cor 8:4

What part of the “No God but One” is unclear to you Jodi?

Now, all you have to do is figure out why Jesus is called God more than once and even by the Father!

I know the answer, but you just want to write pages of apologetics to get around the clear scriptures. So live with the contradictions if you like.

But for me, I believe all of the scriptures in their simplest reading without all the special pleading and inference!

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, Titus 2:13

So you ADMIT that you deny the words of Jesus where he was quoting scripture?

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, “You are gods” '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Regardless of where exactly this scripture came, Jesus declares that it CANNOT be BROKEN, what part of that don't you get? If the scripture according to the mouth of Jesus cannnot be broken then it was obviously a valid one.

Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

YHWH here, is speaking to Jesus the CHRIST, he is speaking to the MAN whom YHWH foreordained to be for us a savior. YHWH is CALLING a MAN god!!

This fits perfectly with the fact that YHWH said “You are gods.”

You OBVIOUSLY did NOT read through my post. Your problem is you fail to understand in what context we are to believe YHWH IS the ONE TRUE GOD! You have NO clue.

This MAN of whom the Father called god, was god, NOT by his OWN powers, but by the power of the ONE TRUE GOD.

YHWH does NOT want us to believe that there exist ANY other being who possesses on their OWN supernatural powers. Men have indeed made gods in their own minds that possess such powers. Men WORSHIP these beings because they revere them for their powers. However YHWH makes it clear that He is the ONLY being that DESRVES such worship because He is the ONLY being who ACTUALLY has such powers.

“DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH.” Exod 23:13

Your thinking IMO is conveniently narrow minded WJ!

What OTHER gods is the text referring to? He is referring to false gods, gods that have NO powers. Not the gods of whom YHWH himself makes. Jesus in fact DID have supernatural powers, not through himself but through His Father. YHWH also made Jesus an example for his companions, a person to be honored and revered, like a god.

Scripture in fact declares that there exists ONE True God and He is said to be the Father. The OT tells us that YHWH ALONE is God, and that He would bring forth a Son of the seed of David. So if you want to keep to your way of thinking, which like I said is rather conveniently narrow minded, having NO understanding as to what actually constitues the ONE TRUE GOD as meaning, then you must then in keeping with believing that Jesus is the ONE True God, assert that Jesus is YHWH and he is his own father. Your the one who make God out to be an idiot.

Once again,

It's like saying this, if you mean Jesus is god because he had supernatural powers, as men denote to gods, then YES Jesus was god. If you mean Jesus is god becasue he is to be honored and revered, like men denote to gods, then yes he is god. If you mean is Jesus the One True God of whom ALL power, wisdom and authority comes from, then NO, he is not THAT GOD, for we are told CLEARLY THAT God is YHWH, that God is the FATHER!!

September 2, 2009 at 9:23 pm#143837

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2009,08:00)

Hi TT,
Unconvinced.
In Jn 14 we are told by Jesus to believe in God AND himself.

What! You say believe in God and in Jesus. You have two Gods Nick and you find fault with me.

thinker

September 2, 2009 at 9:36 pm#143838

Participant

Hi TT,
So he never was equal with God.
There is no GOD THE SON except in theological tomes.

September 2, 2009 at 9:40 pm#143839

Participant

Jodi lee said:

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This MAN of whom the Father called god, was god, NOT by his OWN powers, but by the power of the ONE TRUE GOD.

Jodi,
Jesus is God by His own powers and also by power given to Him because He yielded up His powers to the Father (Philippians 2). Hebrews 1 says that the Son upholds all things “by the word of His power.” And the Father Himself attributed the creation of the universe to the Son's own hand (“hand” a metaphor for power, Hebrews 1:8-10).

Even if He is not God by His own power so what! He is God Representatively which you have admitted. This means that He is appointed to be your God. So submit to Him and stop arguing about it. You say that it is not by His own power but by power that is given to Him alone. But He can exercise His power as He sees fit. He has the power to UTTERLY DESTROY YOU. So why would it matter to you if His power is derived or innate or both derived and innate.

If He has the power to DESTROY YOU then bow the knee! Geez!

Quote

Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

thinker

September 2, 2009 at 9:46 pm#143840