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Show me where you asked it as a Must Answer question before now, and I will oblige. Otherwise, I will answer it as your current question ASAP.
Proclaimer: MIKE STILL TEACHES THAT A CREATION DAY IS 24 HOURS, EVEN BEFORE THE SUN AND MANKIND EXISTED
Correct. Because that’s exactly what the Bible teaches.
Proclaimer: He made them appear in the firmament / sky when looking up from earth. When the sky clears and makes the lights visible that is making it appear for the first time.
Why? What living thing was on earth at that time to look up and see them? 🤔
Show me “made them appear” in scripture. Show me “sky clears” in scripture. Show me that the words “he MADE the sun, moon, and stars” can mean “he made the already existing sun, moon and stars APPEAR from the perspective of earth” in scripture.
Of course you can’t, can you Gene Jr? Or should I call you Kathi – since she too has built a doctrine, not from what the scriptures actually say, but from her own imagination and what she WANTS the scriptures to say.
Proclaimer: In a prior verse, it has already been established that God made the heavens and the earth and the proceeding verses are about the earth being prepared for life. Terraforming if you will.
Let’s see…
Gen 1:1… In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
You claim that this verse means the heaven and earth already existed at that point, right? Let’s scrutinize your claim…
Gen 1:6-8… And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Do you see how your understanding cannot possibly be the correct one? It’s UNDENIABLE from verses 6-8 that the very heaven itself wasn’t even CREATED until DAY 2!
Genesis 1:9-10… And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas…
It’s UNDENIABLE from verses 9-10 that the earth itself didn’t even exist until day 3!
Please explain (USING SCRIPTURAL WORDS) how your understanding of a preexisting heaven and earth aligns with the scriptural fact that heaven wasn’t even made until day 2, and earth didn’t come into existence until day 3. Thanks.
You know what? I was planning on going through all of your posts, and painstakingly exposing your MANY errors as I did in the post above this one, and many times before on this thread and all over HN. But it is a waste of my time, because you don’t even read those posts. So instead of explaining the absurdity of me asking why the moon glows but asteroids don’t, and you bringing up meteors – something that DOES give off its own light like I’m saying the moon does – and then asking ME if there’s anything else YOU can explain to me (🤣), I thought it best just to stick to the MUST ANSWER questions.
Here is your most recent Question to me:
My question
Yes, the Bible says God created the heavens and earth in 6 days, but would it also be correct to say that God made the heavens and earth in a day? Yes / No.NO, it would NOT be correct to say that.
Both the Hebrews and we today use the word “day” idiomatically to refer to a general unspecified period of time, but I am not aware of any instance where the phrase “a day” is used idiomatically to refer to a general unspecified period of time in the past – either in the Bible or in the history of mankind.
For example, we can speak of “back in the day of Abraham Lincoln”, but we don’t ever say that Lincoln’s entire lifetime was “a day to remember”, right? We can speak about “back in the day of the civil war”, but we wouldn’t say “the civil war was fought in a day“, right?
Please correct with me a scriptural (or even secular) example if there is one.
Proclaimer: I’ve already asked this. If you have answered can you give me directions to that?
If not, then answer it and I get another question otherwise I am wasting 2 credits on this question which wouldn’t be fair.
I have answered your question. If YOU can show that you’ve asked it before AS A MUST ANSWER QUESTION, please provide the page and post number for me. If not, I’ll assume it is a brand new MUST ANSWER question, which means it is again my turn. My next MUST ANSWER question will be in the following post.
Proclaimer: Micah 7:11: ‘The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt.
IN MICAH 7:11, IS THE VERSE TALKING ABOUT A SINGLE 12 OR 24 HOUR DAY? YES OR NO.
Mike: I think it refers to Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, so NO.My next Must Answer Question is…
BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Correct. Because that’s exactly what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches the following. Read and weep. The Bible debunks you. Here are a mere three, but it could be much more.
1)
‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
Oops it looks like Mike forgot. Or maybe forgot on purpose.
2)
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
You say that God created the heavens and earth in 6 x 24 hours, but you ignore the Bible when it says ‘the day that the LORD God made the earth and heavens.
3)
And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
Ooh look Mike. Have you ever seen all that happen in 24 hours? No. But it can happen in a day if a day is like a thousand years to God.
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
That was the sound of three truth bombs going off one after another. A threefold witness that you ignore because pride blinds you.
God made the firmament
Correct. God made the sky and its arrangement of celestial objects.
You watch too much Truman Show and Under the Dome.
Lol.
But seriously, if the sky clears up after the waters separate, then yes, the sky and its arrangement appears.
Do you see how your understanding cannot possibly be the correct one? It’s UNDENIABLE from verses 6-8 that the very heaven itself wasn’t even CREATED until DAY 2!
No. Your view is a primitive one. I will try and help you in a simple way that you might grasp. The sky is what you see when you look up. It is a window into the universe. A small window. Th window wasn’t open so to speak. Now it is and you can see the sun and moon that God has already created. Simple.
Please explain (USING SCRIPTURAL WORDS) how your understanding of a preexisting heaven and earth aligns with the scriptural fact that heaven wasn’t even made until day 2, and earth didn’t come into existence until day 3. Thanks.
In thou day that thy LORD God created the heavens and earth he had a plan to maketh the earth habitable. So he could populate the planet with life and for the most blessed of his creation, mankind. Thy plan consisted of 6 stages, with each stage spanning a very long time, like a thousand years. But more accurately, a very long time or however long it needed to be. In one of the stages, he cleared the sky so that the sun and moon became visible. Another stage saw the creation of trees and plants which produced fruit and seed to spawn generations of plants and trees thereafter. On thee final day he rested from all thy creative work. Man whom he created was blessed with free will, but he abused that and went his own way separate to God and man sinned. So thy God activated another plan to redeem his creation that was found in a fallen state and was cursed. Redemption would be a process and despite thy last days being at hand, it has been some two millennia since God sacrificed his own son to pay the penalty of our sins. We know that before the redemption of all things, the Tribulation of 3.5 years will take place when the hour cometh. Some say that the years, days, and hours are symbolic of a longer periods of time because some people forget that time to God is not like time for us. His plans are written in such a manner that the wicked will not understand. Thy Last Days have certainly shown us first hand that scripture was NOT referring to 3 x 24 hours.
Answer
BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?I cannot answer yes or no simply in the information you gave. It would depend if this was literal speak or spiritual. In the sense of a day for God, it would mean the beginning and end of that day which could be many years in our time.
Do not forget Mike that a thousand years is like a day.
A better question to ask me Mike would have been “If there is a morning and evening to a day, would it always be a 24 hour day”. And I would have answered “No”. This is what I think you were driving at. So now you see my stance clearly.
The word in Hebrew for “evening” is erev (or ereb). It means darkness, dusk, evening, and sunset. Morning is when light pierces the darkness. The use of these with the word ‘day’ does not always refer to a 24 hour period. For example:
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
This particular process Mike is NOT a literal 24 hour period despite there being a day and an evening and morning.
When light shines through darkness, it goes from chaos to order. We see this in our own lives where we are being transformed to be like Christ. It is a process that can span a long time. But in a sense it is a day with evening and morning. Or a period of time that starts in chaos and ends in order.
The Micah prophecy if written in the manner you have put it could be a literal 24 hours from darkness to light or could be a longer period of time equalling the time need to go from chaos to order. From destruction to building.
You see Mike, there is a physical and spiritual. Sometimes the Bible is talking about the spiritual meaning. Jesus spoke in parables remember. Some of the things he said were not literal like the parable of the wheat field. Of course he gave us the meaning of that one. It was a spiritual story. But you need to be spiritually minded to understand. And I do not see you understanding very much at all because you take every thing literal or as a physical thing that you see everyday and miss the underlying spiritual meaning. This could be because you are not spiritual but carnal. This what I think the Pharisees struggled with. They talked in great detail about the law, but ignored the spirit of the law. Jesus said to many of them “woe”.
You don’t have to go south to get to the ice wall.
Just go west from California and you’ll arrive at the ice wall.
It skirts the flat earth 360 degrees around.
If you have to travel south regardless of location, you would’ve just proven the globe.
Mike: BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?Proclaimer: I cannot answer yes or no simply in the information you gave. It would depend if this was literal speak or spiritual. In the sense of a day for God, it would mean the beginning and end of that day which could be many years in our time.
Really? So now not only are clouds the “floodgates of heaven”, but you wouldn’t be able to tell from the wording above whether or not they are literal days?
Show me an example in scripture where the passage might be spiritual, but includes “morning/evening” or a numerical value to the word “day”.
Show me one where the plural word “days” might be referring to multiple unspecified periods of time.
Show me where the word “made” could mean “made something that already existed appear”.
Because this is the kind of crap you’ve been claiming to avoid HONEST answers to my questions. You’ve even gone as far as to “explain” the fact that vegetation existed on earth before the sun with…
Proclaimer: Ooh look Mike. Have you ever seen all that happen in 24 hours? No. But it can happen in a day if a day is like a thousand years to God.
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
So because I haven’t personally seen a mature fruit-bearing tree appear out of nowhere, God needs a thousand years to create the earth’s vegetation? Is that really your “argument”? Um… did you ever consider that – according to your own personal rewriting of the scriptures – that means the vegetation all grew up during a thousand years in which the sun didn’t shine through the “water vapor” or whatever?
So are you sure that a thousand years of no direct sunlight would result in a world full of all kinds of plants and trees?
And how many years did God require to make a full grown man? Because I’ve never seen one of those spring up out of nowhere either.
Your arguments are lame. It’s like I’m debating with (best case scenario) a 3rd grader, or (worst case) a chronic liar who doesn’t care how many lies he has to INTENTIONALLY tell as long as he doesn’t “lose” the debate.
So here’s what we’re going to do. There will be no more “I don’t knows”. No more “I would have to research its”. No more “it depends”. There will be no more letting you slide by when my questions require either scriptural evidence or a clear statement from you that no such scriptural evidence exists.
We’re going to start with this last question that you didn’t REASONABLY answer (as per the rules of the Hot Seat). I’ll put it in another post because I need this rant post to stand as is so you know what’s what.
BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Proclaimer: I cannot answer yes or no simply in the information you gave. It would depend if this was literal speak or spiritual. In the sense of a day for God, it would mean the beginning and end of that day which could be many years in our time.
As it is, your answer is unacceptable as a REASONABLE answer to my question, and I reject it.
You need to SHOW FROM SCRIPTURE that there can actually exist such a thing as a “spiritual speak” prophecy in which God or the prophet attributed evening/morning and a numerical value to the word “day”, but it clearly didn’t refer to a literal day.
Do you understand what I’m asking you for, and why I’m asking for it? You have suggested that, in my example prophecy above, the word “day” COULD BE referring to a metaphorical, figurative day that is really an unspecified long period of time.
And I am rejecting that as a valid reasonable answer since there is no such example in the scriptures, nor in the history of the world.
For example, you can’t just claim that when God says He will “punish” someone, it COULD mean that He will fly a helicopter to the Eiffel Tower. You will first have to show an EXAMPLE of how the word “punish” COULD – in a certain circumstance – actually MEAN “fly a helicopter to the Eiffel Tower”. If you cannot show at least the POSSIBILITY of such a transference of definitions, then you aren’t allowed to use your baseless and nonsensical claim as an actual answer to my question.
Clear? Good.
So, your answer is NOT reasonable, as required by the Hot Seat rules that YOU set up. It is not reasonable because there is NO instance in the history of the world where the thing you claim “could be” has actually ever been.
So you will have to either present evidence that what you claim “could be” actually COULD BE, or change your answer to the alternative.
You have one week. Cheers.
So because I haven’t personally seen a mature fruit-bearing tree appear out of nowhere, God needs a thousand years to create the earth’s vegetation? Is that really your “argument”? Um… did you ever consider that – according to your own personal rewriting of the scriptures – that means the vegetation all grew up during a thousand years in which the sun didn’t shine through the “water vapor” or whatever?
Way off. Plants can exist when the sun shines through a thick layer of cloud. Light still reaches the earth. But when the atmosphere clears up, then you can see heavenly bodies like the actual sun and moon. Rather than just filtered light.
And a thousand years for God’s vegetation. You miss the point again. No, a long period of required time for plants to thrive, produce fruit, produce seeds, and propagate. That period of time could be 30 years or a million years. I am not claiming a particular time like you. Just pointing out that it is impossible in 24 hours and that you have never seen it with your own eyes. And you are the one arguing to believe in local observation. It is why you say the earth is flat. Lol.
Show me an example in scripture where the passage might be spiritual, but includes “morning/evening” or a numerical value to the word “day”.
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
You can see that the word day is not 24 hours and that it is one day. Further, there is a morning and evening / day night.
Finally, Back to Genesis now, the first account gives the overview of creation and establishes that it happened in six days. The second account gives the details of the creation of Adam, who was created in the (single) day that God created the heavens and the earth.
Seeking truth is not your strong point Mike. Rather arguing intensely that you are right seems more attractive to you. Pride?
Hey Mike.
Where is your model of the flat earth that explains everything?
I have a model called the Heliocentric Model.
It explains every observable thing.
Are you interested in hearing about it?
Correct. Because that’s exactly what the Bible teaches.
Actually that is what you teach and it is rubbish.
The bible doesn’t teach that at all.
You do not understand the bible and the parables.
They are spiritually discerned.
You are being silly because you take your shallow materialistic culture and apply it to the bible.
Problem I see here is that you also do not teach that Jesus is coming back with a samurai in his mouth and you do not teach that God will save the wheat fields in America and Australia and burn the tares.
Your understanding is almost as good as a pre-schooler Mike.
Maybe in 20 years you might become an adult?
That would be progress, but life is short.
Hopefully we both have another 20 years and have fulfilled our missions when our tenure has ended.
When will you start your mission Mike?
Mike: Show me an example in scripture where the passage might be spiritual, but includes “morning/evening” or a numerical value to the word “day”.
Proclaimer: So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
You can see that the word day is not 24 hours and that it is one day. Further, there is a morning and evening / day night.
The verse you presented DOESN’T have a numerical value (a number) attributed to the word “day”. And it DOESN’T contain the word “morning”. It does contain the Greek word “phósphoros”, in its ONLY use in the entire Bible. It literally means “the bringing of light” or “radiant/radiance”. It is translated as “day-star” and “morning star” in most Bibles – likely because the translators see an allusion to Jesus, the “bright morning star”.
While our ultimate enlightenment does depend upon Jesus, the word in 2 Peter 1:9 could just as well be translated as “radiance”. His point is that, for now, we will good to dwell on the PROPHECIES about Jesus (as if they were a candle shining bright in the dark) UNTIL the day comes that a GREATER source of light (an extremely radiant enlightenment) is presented to us.
It’s like the scriptural teachings that we currently have only a veiled understanding of God and heaven – but the day will come when the veil is lifted, and we will see things much more clearly. (2 Cor 4:3, etc.)
The point is for us to hold on dearly to our current fuzzy image of things until the time that we are shown the true image of them. And Peter does this using different levels of light – the point being that the more light, the better we can see what’s what.
The candle lights things up a little bit, but the radiance of the sun allows us to see them VERY clearly. So hold onto to the candle for now… until the sun rises and allows us to see more clearly.
And he doesn’t mean the literal light of day. He means that we should hold onto the teachings about Jesus and remain focused on them, until true enlightenment is put into our hearts by God, the Holy Spirit, and/or Jesus himself.
At any rate, the verse you presented doesn’t in any way even come close to my example. It DOESN’T contain a number, it DOESN’T actually contain the word morning, and there is zero indication that the “day” mentioned is NOT the literal day in which the more radiant enlightenment comes into someone’s heart.
So I ask again…
BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Of course the ONLY HONEST answer is YES. But if you want one more chance to argue for NO, then you’ll have to do much better than 2 Peter 1:19.
I’ll allow you one more week to come up with a Biblical instance that numbers the days and contains evening/morning – but DOESN’T refer to literal days. At the end of that week, your answer will default to the ONLY HONEST answer: YES.
Proclaimer: Take a break Mike. Here is a history lesson for you.
Please remove posts #932390 and #932418 from this thread. They are not related to our current discussion, nor the topic of this thread in general.
It has already taken you 6 weeks to locate an answer that was one day and one post removed from your question. Cluttering up the thread with unrelated tripe is only going to make it that much harder for you to find questions and answers.
Thanks.
My Question
The verse you presented DOESN’T have a numerical value (a number) attributed to the word “day”. And it DOESN’T contain the word “morning”. It does contain the Greek word “phósphoros”, in its ONLY use in the entire Bible. It literally means “the bringing of light” or “radiant/radiance”. It is translated as “day-star” and “morning star” in most Bibles – likely because the translators see an allusion to Jesus, the “bright morning star”.
My question.
Exactly how many times outside of the creation week do we see the same structure elsewhere in the bible?
This will be helpful for comparison.
Please remove posts #932390 and #932418 from this thread. They are not related to our current discussion, nor the topic of this thread in general.
This discussion is called “The Bible vs Scientism”. Those posts are very on topic Mike.
BUT WHAT IF THE MICAH PROPHECY HAD SAID THIS…
IN THE EVENING OF THE FIRST DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, PEOPLE WILL COME TO YOU FROM ASSYRIA, AND BY THE MORNING OF THE SECOND DAY OF REBUILDING YOUR WALLS, THEY WILL BEGIN TO ARRIVE FROM THE CITIES OF EGYPT.
THEN WOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT LITERAL DAYS? YES OR NO?
Yes I agree that you could reword it to make it more likely to be 24 hour days. A surface read of your text would be more likely understood as 24 hours because what you describe could be done in 24 hours. But it still wouldn’t be proof that it would be 24 hour days. It could be longer days than 24 hour solar days.
The Bible also talks about the hour of judgement. It too could be a single hour but could equally be a longer period of time. Similarly with 1160 days. Some think these are years. Further, a day where plants grow and produce fruit and seed is not going to be 24 hours given the context. Or the day that God created the heavens and the earth is not going to total 24 hours either.
I think when it is talking about men and history then it is more likely to be 24 hours. But when it is talking about God and his timing or prophecy, then it is probably not 24 hours. Depends on many things though.
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