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Hi Mike,
I am curious, where all in the OT do you interpret a passage to teach Jesus pre-existed?
What I know of you so far is Micah 5:2 and Proverbs 8, is that it?
Good Morning Mike,
I unfortunately have not had much time to spend on responding, last week turned into a 75 hour work week for me and this week is super busy as well.
There is a lot I still need to reply to!
I am curious though, as to what all passages in the OT do you interpret as declaring Jesus pre-existed? I know of two, Micah 5:2 and then Proverbs 8, are there more and if so what are they?
Jodi: I read it as, I am he
and thus “I am (he)” means…
I am Christ, specifically concerning him as the anointed man who fulfills Isaiah 46, who brings forth the day of the end that was declared from the beginning, where Before Abraham was, Jesus is he.
1. And do you think that anyone listening to him that day would have gotten all of this from the words “I am”?
2. Please provide the scriptural support for your claim that God declared a man who would fulfill Isaiah 46 anywhere in the Bible BEFORE Abraham was born. (Who did God declare it to? In which scripture can I read about this pre-Abrahamic declaration?) Thanks.
Jodi, Prov 8 ad Micah 5 are very clear. There is also a Proverb (Do you know God’s name – and the name of His son?) that might apply. There is also Psalm 2:7 – depending on interpretation of WHEN those words were first said to Jesus.
I think I remember that there are one or two more, but I can’t think of them right now.
Anyway, since the only one we’ve talked about so far is Micah 5, let me ask a straight question…
Jodi: The definition of origin includes ancestry, it does not solely represent birth.
I gave you straight from the dictionary showing that origin is in fact defined as ancestry.
Jodi, did every single human who lived during Micah’s lifetime, and every single human who has ever lived since him, also have “origins in the distant past”? Yes or No, please?
Mike: Based on the Jews’ response to Jesus’ claim, is it clear that the Jews thought Jesus was implying that he was old enough to have known Abraham personally? Yes or No, please?
Jodi: Yes, that’s a no brainer Mike!
And is it grammatically and contextually possible that this IS what Jesus was telling them?
Jodi: Jesus tells these same Jews in John 8, “my word hath no place in you” and “why do ye not understand my speech?
Agreed. Jesus’ listeners often didn’t understand the full or spiritual MEANING of his words (“eat of my flesh and drink of my blood”, “you must be born again”), but they always understood WHAT he said. It’s not like he was speaking to them in a foreign language or something.
And there are also dozens of times recorded in scripture where the Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying. (Matt 22:15-45, Luke 20:39, Mark 12:28-34, etc) In fact, many MORE times when they DID understand him than when they didn’t fully grasp the entire meaning. (After all, how could he have taught anyone a dang thing if nobody could ever understand WHAT he was teaching them?)
So you’ve agreed that the Jews did indeed understand WHAT Jesus was saying in 8:56-58. And your only argument is that they didn’t understand what he MEANT by those words he said. And that argument is based on the fact that there were other times in scripture where the Jews didn’t fully understand what Jesus meant.
Jodi, how do you know that 8:56-58 is one of the times when the Jews didn’t understand the meaning of Jesus’ words, instead of one of the times they did? What support do you offer for this assertion of yours?
Thanks.
Hi Mike,
I have clearly explained twice now that our origins all come from Adam, including Jesus, which is obviously the distant past, so I have answered your question. But there is a difference between the origin of Jesus and the origin of Jesus as Christ.
We are NOT all a promised Messiah as Jesus is, now are we? According to YHVH’s word/His promise, it is by Abraham’s seed that Christ would come, NOT Adam, not Noah, it BEGINS with Abraham. Can you agree that the origin/ancestry of our Christ BEGINS with Abraham? Yes or No and if no please explain.
What I gave already is that Matthew traces the origin of Jesus CHRIST to that of Abraham which aligns perfectly with Paul’s words to the Galatians in chapter 3 that of Abraham’s seed Christ would come. Luke however does not trace the origin of Jesus CHRIST, he traces the origin of Jesus, where it goes all the way to Adam.
I guess maybe the discussion regarding Jesus as Christ is needed.
My understanding is that Jesus was anointed of the Spirit without measure at the river Jordan, such made him into the promised Messiah and fulfilled YHVH’s promise to Abraham. A human would be made into our Messiah, where that human’s origin is like ours coming from Adam, but him as a human Messiah originates from a promise YHVH made to Abraham.
Once again, we are NOT all a promised Messiah as Jesus is. According to YHVH’s word/His promise, it is also by king David’s seed that Christ would come. Can we all say that we were born as a promised Messiah in a place where our ancestor was anointed king over all of Israel by YHVH?
Mike, can we agree that Jesus as Christ also means that he as such is the RULER over Israel, the two do in fact go hand in hand right? Micah 5:2 is not talking about just another ruler over Israel is he?
Why does Matthew even bother giving us the book of Jesus CHRIST’s origin/ancestry? Why does he go even further to break it down calculating generations where the origin we know is according to a man YHVH gave a promise too?? Same reason why Micah says that this ruler’s goings forth is from of old, from ancient times.
Good Morning Mike,
So here is the thing, passages cannot conflict with one another so interpreting a passage that creates another passage to then be a lie is then an incorrect interpretation.
1 Chron 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
This is clearly talking about Jesus, and first you have a human and THEN YHVH becomes a Father unto him and THEN He settles him into His house and His kingdom for ever giving him an eternal throne.
There was no Son existing in YHVH’s house that came down from heaven to be born a human baby. As previously said, all reference of Jesus being SENT or coming, all apply to him as becoming anointed of the Spirit at the river Jordan and then God sending him out into the world.
Acts 2:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.Psalms 89:
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.YHVH makes David’s son into His Son, His firstborn, not YHVH makes His firstborn Son into David’s son.
Mike,
We are given prophecy, YHVH’s WORD that He would rest His Spirit in the son of David, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge. This WORD was made true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth, do you deny it?
Concerning John 1:14, Did the people really behold his glory as one filled with grace and truth because he pre-existed as YHVH’s only begotten Son, or did they behold the glory of one filled with grace and truth because he was the only mortal born of the Spirit without measure filled with the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and reverence for YHVH?
Jodi…….couldn’t help myself again , another “perfect” post, hope all here read it.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Hi Mike,
I would really like to lay to rest our debate over Micah 5:2.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore . The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. Therefore he shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of his brothers shall return to the people of Israel and he shall stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God. And they shall dwell secure, for now he shall be great to the ends of the earth and he shall be their peace.
Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. 19 He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. 20 You will show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as you have sworn to our fathers from the days of old.
Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: 68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of David His servant – 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old – 71 Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us; 72 To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to Abraham our father, 74 To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.
Matthew 1:1 The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah…
…17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.
Micah is not slipping in some bombshell of pre-existence in between talking about one coming from the tribe of Judah to be a ruler for YHVH and then talking about him being a shepherd in the strength of YHVH unto his flock bringing peace.
The promise, the oath that YHVH swore from the days of old, was that of Abraham’s seed the Messiah, the ruler and shepherd who brings peace would come. Micah is referencing that not only does this ruler come from the tribe of Judah, his coming forth is from days of old, many generations back further than David, where we are given elsewhere in scripture that truth, that his coming forth BEGINS with that of Abraham when in ancient times YHVH swore an oath.
Hi Mike,
YOU: Please provide the scriptural support for your claim that God declared a man who would fulfill Isaiah 46 anywhere in the Bible BEFORE Abraham was born. (Who did God declare it to? In which scripture can I read about this pre-Abrahamic declaration?)
ME: I am not follow your thought process here. Maybe you aren’t following my point nor do you understand what scripture teaches.
YHVH declared it from the beginning, even before the world was, how are you not grasping that? My scriptural support is in Isaiah 46 itself.
Isaiah 46: 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Titus 1: 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 John 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us).
Acts 2: 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Rev 13: 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
2 Timothy 1: 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in CHRIST Jesus before the world began,
Hebrews 11: 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God…13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city…39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Mike, not only was eternal life for humans WITH our heavenly Father from the beginning but the anointed Jesus of Nazareth and his glory was WITH our Father as well. The resurrected Jesus, is God’s Word before the world was, made true in the flesh, he is proof that YHVH’s Word of Life, that was from the beginning, is true. By such we have faith in YHVH that we will be as Jesus is, that he is truly a firstborn of many brethren. That which Jesus is, is a human raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit unto eternal life, whereby that Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a child of YHVH, for those who are led by the Spirit of YHVH are the Sons of YHVH. We are to bare the image of the Son and Paul directly gives us the image of the Son.
Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’s day, the day that Jesus returns and resurrects the dead and gives them the promised Holy Spirit unto eternal life. Jesus is coming from God’s house, God’s country and he is bringing that country with him, as earth will be as it is in heaven. Not only did Abraham see this and have faith in it but several others as well, before and after Abraham.
YHVH wants us to know that this was all planned by Him before the world was, not just when He revealed it to the prophets. All things that YHVH made He did it by reason of and for Jesus of Nazareth who YHVH planned to anoint with His Spirit, call to righteousness for to be a light unto the world, bringing forth blessing to all nations of people and set up YHVH’s kingdom on earth. Him dying on the cross was even foreordained before the foundation of the world and his glory as a firstborn overall the new and eternal earth as well. Without him nothing would have been made that was made.
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