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Mike,
I have made it very clear that 1. Mary was a virgin when she conceived and 2., she was FOUND with child ek/by the Holy Spirit. How else is a virgin going to conceive if not by the power of the Highest overshadowing her?
Matthew gives us the BOOK of Jesus’s GENESIS, his GENETIC LINE and that book goes from Abraham to Joseph, you are just going to deny this, you have no comment? We are then told that Mary was FOUND with child by the Holy Spirit. God most certainly has the power to cause virgin Mary to be found with a child of Joseph’s DNA, his 23 chromosomes to which make a human according to God’s very own design and makes Matthew’s words true and not a lie.
The above far and wide supersedes your assertion that Luke is teaching Jesus was not a son of Joseph that it was just supposed that he was. The below leaves room for contemplation and interpretation especially when there was no punctuation in the original text. My interpretation does not make Matthew into a liar yours however does.
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Hi Mike,
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of/ek/from/by the Holy Ghost.
Would not Joseph assume that Mary had laid with another man, which would be the reason why he wanted to dismiss her? Then the angel comes to him in a dream to tell him that she conceived not by another man but by the power of the Highest. The angel made Joseph realize that the child his betrothed conceived was of his genetic line caused by the direct hand of God to fulfill the sign.
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
There is not one scripture that makes a point that Mary is of the house of David or of the lineage of David or a Son of David. That is because it is your father’s line that matters unto the Hebrews.
Jodi: Yes, I can concede that is not how people speak or write when they are saying someone is the father of someone, but as said, Luke isn’t talking about just any father and son.
Who or what the person is talking about doesn’t matter, Jodi. Let’s suppose for argument’s sake that Jesus was God’s literal firstborn son – higher than any being who would ever live after him. Even then, if someone said he was the son – as was supposed – of God, then that parenthetical phrase absolutely, positively means that there is more to the story, and that Jesus isn’t literally God’s son like everyone thinks.
Luke 1… 30So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
34“How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.”
Luke was well aware that Jesus’ literal father was God, not Joseph. Therefore, “the son – or so it was supposed – of Joseph”.
Hi Mike,
So Matthew is a liar then and the bible is not reliable? Please directly address the fact that Matthew says he is giving us THE BOOK OF Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN the book of his GENEA/GENETIC LINE where that book that he gives goes from Abraham to Joseph.
Can you concede that it is possible for Mary to be found with child of Joseph’s lineage by the power of God’s Spirit. Surely if you believe God has the power to make children of Abraham out of stones this is most certainly possible as well.
Luke’s words can then be properly understood that he was indeed saying, BEING (as was thought) the son of Joseph.
I have looked and could not find one passage in the OT or NT that gives a person’s name and then says “of the house of” or “of the house and lineage of” this only applies to Joseph. Yes, we do see “of the house of the LORD”, “of the house of Israel”, and other “of the house of”, but as said I could not find one example of a specific person then being said to be “of the house of”. So thus I would say it’s not normal to write, Suzie of the house of Gary or Suzie of the house of and lineage of Gary. It’s not normal to say “(as was supposed) the son of Joseph nor is it normal to say Joseph of the house and lineage of David.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Jesus was great upon the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and he was sent out to do the will and works of God through the Spirit that came to abode in him. SHALL BE CALLED the Son of the Highest, pay attention to the SHALL BE, just as the baby Jesus would be great one day and just as he would be given the throne of his father David one day, one day he would be called the Son of the Highest.
Other than this one passage in Luke that specifically says, SHALL BE CALLED, all gospels speak of Jesus being a Son of God is at the moment the Spirit descended upon him, the moment that he was anointed of the Spirit becoming our Christ.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; …9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ…32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that THIS IS the Son of God.
Here is something interesting,
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
Mike, the devil identifies Jesus as the Son of God through the powers of the Spirit that came to dwell in him. Jesus is God’s Son because he was begotten, born of God’s Spirit without measure and with the power of the Spirit he was capable of turning stone into bread. The devil saw him as God’s Son for that reason, the power of the Spirit he was begotten with, not because he pre-existed.
Jesus was filled with the Spirit and was LED BY the Spirit, which Paul teaches us in Romans 8 that we are to be made into the image of the Son and he gives us that very image telling us that those who are LED BY the Spirit are the Sons of God and that the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God. The Spirit bore witness to the human spirit of Jesus that he was God’s Son. Jesus’s spirit was LED BY the Spirit of God in all his ways after he was filled with the Spirit not by measure.
One final point on this post,
Just as Luke 1:32 is speaking of the child to be born is the person to fulfill the prophecy of 1 Chronicles 17, Nathanael sees Jesus according to that prophecy, where there would be a son of David to whom God would become a Father to and then God would set him upon David’s throne, where he would be a king overall of Israel.
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
Jodi: God most certainly has the power to cause virgin Mary to be found with a child of Joseph’s DNA, his 23 chromosomes to which make a human according to God’s very own design and makes Matthew’s words true and not a lie.
Jodi, this is the first I’m hearing of your understanding that God impregnated Mary with Joseph’s genetic material. All this time I though you were arguing that Joseph DID literally impregnate Mary – when scripture is very clear that he DIDN’T.
Okay. Let me say that Joseph adopting Jesus as his own makes Jesus a legal son of Joseph, and therefore legally of the House of David. There’s also the possibility that Mary was of the House of David, since the Jews tended to marry within their own tribes for the most part. Either of these would result in Jesus being the branch of David without any genetic material from Joseph.
As to your understanding, I can only offer my own opinion that God snagging Joseph’s genetic material and placing it in Mary wouldn’t make Jesus any more a son of God than anyone else, since we know that God forms us all in our mothers’ wombs.
It wouldn’t align very well with the angel telling Mary and Joseph that the child conceived in her was from the Holy Spirit, and he would therefore be the Son of the Most High.
Whether God snagged Joseph’s DNA and placed it in Mary or Joseph deposited his DNA in the normal manner would produce the same end result concerning Jesus himself. Nothing about the former would result in Jesus being the Son of the Most High in a different way than we are all children of God. Yet the theme that Jesus is the son of God in a very special and different way is prominent all throughout the NT.
And finally, you believing that God placed Joseph’s DNA into Mary doesn’t say anything one way or the other about whether or not Jesus preexisted his humanity. So I have no problem agreeing to disagree on the manner in which Jesus began his human existence.
I think that takes care of most of the housekeeping I wanted to get out of the way. So it’s time to get started with those preexistence proof texts. I’ll see you Saturday. 🙂👍🙏
Hi Mike,
Glad that is cleared up! This has been my stance for several years now after debating and looking at the surrounding text of Matthew 16 and 18.
Mathew IS NOT teaching us that Joseph is Jesus’s adoptive father, on the contrary, he is giving us THE BOOK OF Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN, the BOOK OF Jesus’s GENEA/GENETIC LINEAGE to show us specifically how Jesus IS a bio son of Abraham and David. He does that through giving us the lineage that goes from Abraham to Joseph. Then we are told that of the power of the Holy Spirit Mary was FOUND with child.
We are even told in Matthew that THIS WAS DONE so that the SIGN, given by God unto the house of David, could be fulfilled.
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Hi Mike,
Yes, correct the baby Jesus was a son of God just like all mortal humans are, as we all come from Adam, “which was the son of God”. But he is also the prophesied son of David to whom God promised He would be a Father to, to whom He would not take his mercy away from and to whom He promised He would give him an eternal kingdom and bring redemption and rest unto Israel and even unto the Gentiles.
Why we read in Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Mike, as I already gave you, other than this one passage above, where it is said that the child SHALL BE CALLED the Son of the Highest, Jesus is not declared to be God’s Son by the Gospel writers until he is anointed of the Spirit becoming the promised Messiah, until the Spirit of God descends to LIVE IN Jesus without measure, which means the exact same thing as being born of the Spirit, it means the exact same thing as being begotten by God and as Jesus is the only mortal man begotten of the Spirit without measure such also make him rightfully called God’s only begotten Son. Such fulfills OT prophecy/God’s Word, that Luke spoke about also, that the child would be great and would be called the Son of the Highest. Upon Jesus’s anointing of the Spirit he goes out to do all of God’s will and do God’s GREAT works in God’s name.
As said, the devil identified Jesus as God’s Son through the powers of the Spirit that he had. Nathanael believes he is God’s Son according to prophecy where you have a son of David and then God becomes a Father unto him and makes him a king of Israel.
There does not exist one scripture that teaches us that Jesus pre-existed and did so as God’s Son, where that son literally then came down from heaven finding himself in a virgin’s uterus.
Jodi: Jesus is not declared to be God’s Son by the Gospel writers until he is anointed of the Spirit becoming the promised Messiah, until the Spirit of God descends to LIVE IN Jesus without measure, which means the exact same thing as being born of the Spirit…
1. The Gospel writers couldn’t very well declare something about someone they didn’t yet know, Jodi. And even after they met him and started traveling with him, it took time before they realized who he really was.
2. Being CONCEIVED BY the Holy Spirit surely outweighs being ANOINTED by the Holy Spirit. I’m certain that Jesus was the “Son of the Most High” from the moment he was conceived/born.
3. Scripture seems to be clear that Jesus, although being the “Son of the Most High” from birth, was deemed the “only begotten of God” when he was raised from the dead.
Like I said, we disagree on certain things that are irrelevant to whether or not Jesus preexisted. That’s okay. Let’s get to the meat of the matter…
Micah 5:2… But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
Seems pretty straight forward that Jesus’ origins predated Micah. What say you?
Hi Mike,
First off, you STILL have not addressed Matthew 1 and him giving us the BOOK OF Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN, the BOOK OF his GENEA/GENETIC LINE.
Second, the Gospel writers wrote after the Son of Man ascended to sit at God’s right hand right?
Before he ascended after he rose from the dead Jesus even taught them of the OT scriptures concerning himself.
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
The Gospel writers wrote knowing that their lord and Christ was in heaven with God. Two wrote of him beginning with his birth and two wrote from the time he was anointed and sent out into the world. As they wrote about Jesus they knew he was sitting at God’s right hand and they all wrote of him being declared by God to be God’s Son the moment the Spirit came to dwell in him.
Mike, which is it? He was conceived by the Holy Spirit or he was a spirit entity being sent down from heaven into a woman’s uterus being transformed into a human? These seem like two different things to me so please explain. What does that even mean, being conceived by the Holy Spirit?
Mary was FOUND with child by the Holy Spirit, where Matthew teaches us specifically that the child was a bio son of Abraham and David through Joseph, that is the very BOOK of Jesus’s GENESIS that we are directly given. Mary was FOUND with child of Joseph’s seed BY the Holy Spirit, that is exactly what Matthew teaches us.
Mike, saying that being conceived by the Holy Spirit out ways being anointed by the Holy Spirit, is not a good point, since I believe that Jesus being anointed of the Spirit without measure was not only a calling of him to righteousness, but it also meant that our heavenly Father came to dwell in Jesus without measure making him an only begotten Son. Solomon was a son of God, he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Jesus however was an only begotten Son as he was the only Son begotten of the Spirit not by measure, that is the context. You believe Jesus is called God’s only begotten Son because of his birth, I don’t believe that, it contradicts what I believe, so it doesn’t outweigh anything.
Give me scripture that says Jesus is considered God’s only begotten Son from when he was raised from the dead?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
We have 5 scriptures that speak to Jesus being God’s only begotten Son, let me show you surrounding context and supporting scriptures.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The WORD that became flesh was God’s WORD of the prophet Isaiah, where a man would be filled with the Spirit, filled with Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge, where he would then be sent out to speak God’s TRUTH. God had said in prophecy that this was glory that He would give to no other.
We then read,
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake….20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
JOHN 1:32 And John BARE RECORD, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and BARE RECORD THAT THIS IS the Son of God.
JOHN 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The Son of Man came down from heaven, he who had God come to live in him without measure who was THEN SENT out into the world TO deliver captives, was sent down from heaven, coming to us directly from heaven, FROM GOD.
JOHN 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is COME into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
JOHN3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Here is the last scripture we see Jesus being called God’s only begotten Son,
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
READ IT AGAIN,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath SENT ME to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Mike, Jesus being called God’s only begotten Son all directly points to the Spirit of God coming to LIVE in Jesus without measure at the river Jordan, where at that very moment God declared “THIS IS my beloved Son”. John bore record that the man who received God’s Spirit to abode in him is he who is God’s Son. Jesus received that Spirit we are told BECAUSE he was to be SENT OUT to deliver captives, to set us at liberty, to free us of our sins through his death.
A man came down from heaven, not any man, the son of David of God’s WORD came down from heaven, the son of David who God had promised He would be a Father to was sent out into the world coming directly FROM GOD/DOWN FROM HEAVEN.
Jesus is not called God’s only begotten Son sent into the world because he was a spirit son coming down from heaven sent into a virgin’s uterus. He is not called God’s only begotten Son sent into the world because he was conceived of God’s Holy Spirit. You say he is 100% human because his mother was human, do you say he is also 100% God because his Father is God?
The two go hand in hand and I can’t believe you don’t see it.
We are told that the LORD’S Spirit came to dwell in Jesus without measure for the purpose to be sent out into the world to be a propitiation for our sins.
We are told that God sent his only begotten Son into the world to be a propitiation for our sins.
Such makes this promised Son of Man, to whom God would be a Father to, coming to the people directly from God, directly thus down from heaven above.
Guess what else, when Jesus was raised from the dead he received the Holy Spirit to dwell in him again, which was according to a promise. Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and it is the Spirit that bears witness to the human spirit that one is a child of God. The Spirit causes righteousness, it’s fruit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth, where there is no sin and thus no death, only life eternal.
Jodi: Hi Mike,
First off, you STILL have not addressed Matthew 1 and him giving us the BOOK OF Jesus’s GENESIS/ORIGIN, the BOOK OF his GENEA/GENETIC LINE.
Hi Jodi. Joseph adopting Jesus as his own son even though Joseph knew that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the existence of this child that was conceived – not by Joseph but by the Holy Spirit – would make Jesus a legal and bonafide “branch of David”. Add to that the fact that Mary was likely from the line of David as well, and the “major problem” you’re seeing turns out to not be a problem at all.
Please listen carefully here… I don’t care anymore about this particular disagreement because it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Jesus preexisted in heaven BEFORE he was born of Mary – either by God snagging Joseph’s DNA and inserting it into Mary, or by the Holy Spirit conceiving the child in her as the scripture plainly states.
If YOU want to think that Matthew listing Joseph absolutely means that Joseph’s DNA MUST HAVE BEEN involved somehow, then have at it. I will continue to believe that the Holy Spirit – NOT Joseph – conceived the child in Mary like the angel said.
Time to move on from this point that is irrelevant to the overall discussion anyway.
Jodi: Second, the Gospel writers wrote after the Son of Man ascended to sit at God’s right hand right?
This is another point of disagreement between us that has no bearing on whether or not Jesus existed in heaven before existing on earth as a human being. Therefore I have no interest in this particular point at this time. Maybe some other time, but I started this thread to talk about Jesus’ preexistence – or lack thereof.
Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
Two things,
First, he that comes forth that is of Judah is of Israel and thus of course of Abraham. Matthew 1 tells us the GENESIS/ORIGIN of Jesus is of Abraham. Which to Micah, Abraham having existed more than a thousand years prior is thus of old, of ancient days. For Jesus his origin coming from Abraham, would be even more of old of ancient days.
Second,
This man from the tribe of Judah whose origin is from ancient of days being of the seed of Abraham would come forth to be a ruler in Israel according to God’s word from ancient of days, from the time of Abraham and even before, from the beginning.
Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us. 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus. 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted*, that are far from righteousness 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Mike, all of Isaiah 11 has not yet been fulfilled and he who was raised from the dead having received the promised Holy Spirit is great unto the ends of the earth destroying the wicked and bringing forth peace does so through the Spirit of the LORD that is dwelling in him. He is a son of Man in our Father’s glory as a Son of God through His Spirit.
Abraham saw the day his seed would bring forth salvation and peace on earth, he saw it and rejoiced. Before Abraham even existed, this was declared by God. Jesus said I AM the LIGHT, he said I AM the resurrection. He is the LIGHT for God had called this man to righteousness for to be a LIGHT to deliver captives.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
recall Isaiah 46 Mike, this man who would bring forth God’s salvation being lifted up on the cross dying for our sins was declared from the beginning. The man who would execute God’s council was declared from the beginning, before Abraham was, such was declared.
lol I just realized that I said out ways instead of out weighs, oops. I am sure you knew what I meant 😉
Jodi: Mike, which is it? He was conceived by the Holy Spirit or he was a spirit entity being sent down from heaven into a woman’s uterus being transformed into a human? These seem like two different things to me so please explain. What does that even mean, being conceived by the Holy Spirit?
I believe that Jesus existed in the form of a god, then emptied himself, and was made in the form of a human. That last process was completed by the Holy Spirit (ie: God) causing a human woman to become pregnant with the “stuff” that, when mixed with Mary’s “stuff”, would result in a preexisting entity being born a second time as a different type of entity.
The entity himself was not placed into Mary’s womb, Jodi. God performed a miracle and caused the “male stuff of human Jesus” to mix with Mary’s egg, or to be in Mary’s womb, or whatever.
Jodi: Mike, saying that being conceived by the Holy Spirit out ways being anointed by the Holy Spirit, is not a good point, since I believe that Jesus being anointed of the Spirit without measure was not only a calling of him to righteousness, but it also meant that our heavenly Father came to dwell in Jesus without measure making him an only begotten Son.
I think it is a great point. But as this also has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus lived before he dwelt on earth, it is irrelevant to the reason for the thread.
Jodi: Give me scripture that says Jesus is considered God’s only begotten Son from when he was raised from the dead?
Acts 13:32-33… And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
That verse seems to say that the promise was fulfilled BY God raising up Jesus. But you make a good point, that Jesus was already God’s only begotten Son before that time – according to the verses you listed. Of course that would apply to Jesus simply being born on earth too.
So was it at the Jordan? Was it at his birth? Was it at his ascension?
It doesn’t matter for our discussion about Jesus’ preexistence – or lack thereof.
Jodi: lol I just realized that I said out ways instead of out weighs, oops. I am sure you knew what I meant
Yeah, I knew. I just figured you were doing talk-to-text and that’s how your phone spelled it. 😅
Jodi: This man from the tribe of Judah whose origin is from ancient of days being of the seed of Abraham would come forth to be a ruler in Israel according to God’s word from ancient of days, from the time of Abraham and even before, from the beginning.
Notice that, even according to your own words above, it is the MAN whose origin is from ancient days. It is not a prophesy that God spoke in ancient days, but a future ruler WHOSE origin is from ancient days.
Would you agree that the most straightforward reading of Micah 5:2 tells of a future ruler who has already been around for a long time?
Oh gosh, I haven’t ever talked to text, lol, that was just my own error. I think it’s weird because I am so use to writing these things and not speaking much that I would almost prefer to write to someone and have them read it and then discuss it, than speak to them directly about it. It comes out clearer and more in depth if I am writing it out. Not sure if that makes sense.
Thank you for your clarification and your patience with me, your explanation in post 938097 was EXTREMELY helpful.
Alrighty, so if I am hearing you right you see Jesus as being born of God as a Son of God 3 times, first overall of the creation that God says will pass away, second when he was born of Mary, and lastly when he rose from the dead.
As you could probably figure at this point, I believe Jesus was born a human, then he was born of the Spirit at the river Jordan becoming God’s only begotten Son and then he was raised from the dead and at that time he was born of the Spirit again becoming an eternal Son of God, a Son of what will be many Sons of God.
Coming into existence/being created/being given life as a certain kind of being is not what I see makes you a Son of God, what makes a Son of God is whatever kind of being God made you if He has put His Spirit in you to a calling of righteousness where you are not able to sin, is what makes you an eternal Son of God.
I believe that God created humans for the purpose that He would put His Spirit in us that would cause us to walk in all His ways, such is being born of the Spirit, such is being born of God , where you are no longer able to sin and thus are never deserving of death, you are then an eternal Son. The Spirit bears fruit of all that is good and righteous and true. If God would have made us this way from the beginning we would not know that He is the SOURCE, we would think it came from ourselves. He has made a history of man coming to know that man can do nothing good of himself, only God is good, only by the gifts of His Spirit that live in us we are good. This is what Jesus taught, not only was it true unto himself but it is true for all of mankind.
Hi Mike,
Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
YOU: Would you agree that the most straightforward reading of Micah 5:2 tells of a future ruler who has already been around for a long time?
ME: Actually no, reading it straight forward I see,
from you (Judah) shall “come forth” a ruler in Israel, which would be a prophecy, then reading, “whose coming forth” is from of old, from ancient days, tells me that the “coming forth” was not a new prophecy, it was God’s word even from ancient of days.
But knowing that the “forth” in the first instance is a different word than the second “forth”, I understand it differently. The first represents to go forth while the second is speaking of origin.
Like I said, we are given the origin of Jesus in Matthew 1, which is Abraham and Abraham unto God is most certainly a very important historical figure being of ancient days where long ago God made a covenant with Abraham where through him all nations would be blessed. We read just after in verse 3, Judah, Jesus’s brethren, returning to the children of Israel, where we know Jesus of Judah will rule over them all, all of Abraham’s children. We then read in verse 4, that Jesus will be great unto the ends of the earth, all nations, not just the children of Israel will be blessed through this ruler, God’s ancient covenant with Abraham fulfilled. This is exactly why Micah prior tells us that the ruler that is to come, his origin is of old, his origin is of Abraham to which through his seed all nations would be blessed.
I had an inkling and so I checked and found this gem,
Micah 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. 20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jaco<span style=”color: #000000;”>b</span><span style=”color: #000000;”>, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.</span>
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation (GENESIS/ORIGIN) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Micah 5 verses 3 and 4 should tell you without a doubt that the origin spoken of in verse 2, of the man who would be ruler of Israel, represents Abraham. <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Jesus of the tribe of Judah as ruler over all nations, ORIGINATED from God’s covenant with Abraham concerning his seed.</span>
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