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Gregory
You: if it’s not, then your argument would be that he had holy spirit, but didn’t receive power until baptized.
Me: Christ had the holy spirit from when he was conceived. Christians grow in the spirit when babes in Christ. Christ grew in the spirit also. So if Christ grew in the spirit, he could become even more powerful if anointed with more power. He needed this as he went into the desert to fast to become even closer to God. He was greatly tempted by Satan.
You: If it is, then your argument that he had it at birth collapses as well. Seems a little illogical, as do your other assertions/insertions.
Me: It doesn’t collapse. You are pompous, condescending and arrogant and are reasoning in circles.
You: Christ had grown mightily in the spirit (Luke 2:40, 52) before Jordan (Luke 3:22). How could the Messiah grow in the holy spirit if he wasn’t first begotten of it? What he received at Jordon was anointing power to do the will of his father in a powerful way and to die for our sins in the end
Me: Christ was begotten of God at birth, not at Jordan as I explain above which you seem incapable of understanding. He may have received anointing power at Jordan, but that doesn’t mean he received the holy spirit there.
Gregory,
You:
As for… “The rest of your rebuttals are transferred to “How the Lake of Fire and the Second Death Brings Salvation, page 8”. Not a clue as to what you are talking about or as to how this was deduced. People had holy spirit in the OT before Christ, just do a word study on the ruach/spirit, and/or read the verses I posted. They had spirit upon but were not born again, that wasn’t available until Pentecost.
Me: Horse feathers. I had shown you all the scriptures which should have proved to you that the prophets, John the Baptist, and Isaac were had been born of the spirit.
You: Maybe I should have been more clear. Spirit upon, OT spirit-before Pentecost, isn’t like spirit up..on, juxtapose spirit within, but rather upon conditions. It came and went conditionally. Today it PERMANENTLY dwells within. When the Word of the Lord came to prophets, that was the spirit giving word of wisdom, word of knowledge, as were all other manifestations given; minus speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues.
Me: Nope, they were born of the spirit inside of them. I showed you that. Since it didn’t sink in, let me show it to you again. The prophets and apostle are the foundation that the church is built upon (Eph 2:20). They were born of the spirit but not baptized of the holy spirit. Only Christ’s sacrifice could save them (Mark 16:16). The holy spirit had gone back to God when they died (Eccl 3:21). They received the holy spirit again when Christ heart and mind was in it. This was after Christ had risen from the dead and was glorified (John 5:25, Luke 13:3).
GregoryLuke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
Me: You are filled with the holy spirit inside of you.John is one example of one that had the holy spirit inside of him before Pentecost.
Example 2:
Gal 2:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Me: Isaac was born of the spirit. He had the spirit of God inside of him.Example 3
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Me: These received the holy spirit before Pentecost. The mind and heart of Christ was now in the holy spirit After Pentecost, Christ could dispense of the spirit mightily, for he was glorified.Example 4:
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.Me: The prophets had the same holy spirit inside of them that Christ had in him.
The Messiah was the direct expression of God. He was made a little lower than God (Heb 1:3). He was God’s temple or body made without hands–the image of God (Col 1:15). To say that the Messiah did not have the spirit of God in him at birth is complete folly.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/8-5.htm
TC….I believe Jesus was born exactly as we are, he had the spirit of man in him the same as we do at birth. But that did not make him the “Christo’s of God” until he reieved the fullness of the spirit of God at the Jordan river, that is when Jesus beame “the messaih of God”, or the anointed one of God.
Scripture shows there was no mircales done through him untill after he was anointed an tested in the wilderness, Then was he sent out into the world to preach the good new of the kingdom of God, with great power and athuority, because he had recieved the fullness of the holy spirit into him at the Jordan river. That is when GOD CAME TO BE IN FLESH. HE MADE HIS ABODE IN THE FLESH (TEMPLE) OF JESUS AT THE ANOUNTING, THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE JORDAN RIVER. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Gene,
I respectfully disagree. I believe that Christ had a human mind but the holy spirit as his only spirit. At the end, his church and mankind will have human minds but the holy spirit and only spirit of God in them. The animal kingdom will have animal minds but the holy spirit in them. All will be in all through the holy spirit. Anyway, only God can convict us.
TC….All have spirit from God in them at birth, but not the fullness of the spirit, the same applies to Jesus. When a man dies his spirit goes back to God who gave it in the first place, so it is with all creation. But a massiah, is a person who the Father anointed with “holy spirit”, Jesus was given the fullness of the spirits of God, making GOD THE FATHER TO BE “IN” HIM, EVEN we who have the anointing spirit “in” us have the same thing in us as Jesus does.
We must per ieve Jesus as Moses said, “the LORD shall raise up unto you a “prophet” like me”. Moses saw Jesus as another anointed human being, just like himself. Who as he did, would carry a message from GOD as he had.
There is no recordings of Jesus performing any miracles at all untill he was anointed by John at the JORDAN RIVER. That is when the fullnes of GOD CAME TO BE “IN” THE MAN JESUS.
PERHAPS A DESCUSION OF WHAT “IS” SPIRIT would help resolve this issue, tell us what is your opinion of what a spirit realy is.
TO ME SPIRIT IS OUR COGNATE INTELLECTS, THESE COGNISITIES COME IN VERIOUS TYPES AND KINDS.
THERE ARE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD, SCRIPTURE SAYS. All these seven now dwell in the man Jesus, but that does not make the man Jesus a God, because all of God’s spirits are “in” him. When these spirits are coupled with power, then a person can act as God, therefore when God the Father says unto the son “thy kingdom “O” God is a everlasting kingdom’, he is speaking to the seven spirits that are in Jesus, not to the man Jesus himself. IMO
JESUS will use those seven spirits with seven powers to establish the kingdom of God on this earth, and then he will turn that kingdom back to GOD, AND BECOME SUBJECT TO IT JUST AS WE WILL. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Nick, Yep.
TC,
You referenced your own argument as mine (#833878 <span class=”bbp-admin-links”>REP)</span>, but that is what you said, then you argued against your own statement. Then you started calling me names – how Christian of you, thanks. Let’s not get offensive or offended, we’re just sharpening each other.
Please provide verses of Holy Scripture that say Jesus Christ was born with holy spirit, and I’ll believe them, no assumptions just scripture. If one could get born again of holy spirit as you say John and other prophets did, then there would be no need for Jesus and we could just all be born of the spirit – did they get to choose like we do? We too are referenced as God’s temple, yet were not born with holy spirit.
Again, spirit upon conditions before Pentecost, spirit unconditionally after Pentecost. Getting born again is God Creating His Spirit in you (Col 3:10). Create means to bring in to existence something that didn’t exist. GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, created seed in MARY to bring about the flesh man JESUS who became the THE CHRIST anointed of GOD at Jordan fulfilling prophecy.
ISV – Col 3:10 and have clothed yourselves with the new nature, which is being renewed in full knowledge, consistent with the image of the one who created it.
ISV – Eph 4:24 and to clothe yourselves with the new nature, which was created according to God’s image in righteousness and true holiness.
No one suggested the baptism of John brings the holy spirit. As you said, John and the other OT prophets had the same spirit, but, being born again of the spirit wasn’t available until Pentecost, that’s the whole point of Pentecost and the birth of the church, that’s why Jesus told his disciples to tarry/wait, so he could send another comforter. He taught them how to receive the holy spirit in John 20:22, but it wasn’t fulfilled until Pentecost.
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (prophecy fulfilled at Pentecost, not before)
ISV – Joh 3:7 Don’t be astonished that I told you, ‘All of you must be born from above.’ (Born again)
ISV – 1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not by a seed that perishes but by one that cannot perish—by the living and everlasting word of God.
Pentecost is the fulfillment of prophecy of the outpouring of holy spirit for all who believe and call upon the name of Jesus the Christ and get born again. This was not available until then. Yes, previously they had holy spirit as God chose whom he would to speak/execute his Word, but it wasn’t available for just anyone to choose and receive until Pentecost (50th day after Passover-completion of harvest). If there is proof of being born again otherwise, please provide the scriptures that directly say that so I can examine.
Gene,
I like Micah 5:2. Haven’t picked up on that one before. However, it says “his going forths” are from old. Concordances’ suggest that means his descent, or origins, are from old/everlasting. This fits with the whole of scripture as God is His father from whom he descended from. Doesn’t necessarily suggest he has existed forever. Do you have further insight on this verse, your suggestion the Messiah existed before he existed, at his birth?
Hi Gene,
You:
TC….All have spirit from God in them at birth, but not the fullness of the spirit, the same applies to Jesus. When a man dies his spirit goes back to God who gave it in the first place, so it is with all creation. But a messiah is a person who the Father anointed with “holy spirit”, Jesus was given the fullness of the spirits of God, making GOD THE FATHER TO BE “IN” HIM, EVEN we who have the anointing spirit “in” us have the same thing in us as Jesus does. No, I do not believe the spirit of man goes back to God at death. I believe the whole soul, as it is defined as the entire being, dies. If after the resurrection of Christ, a new mind and heart is resurrected with the holy spirit.Me:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.Well, yes the holy spirit is of a higher intensity than human spirit. The holy spirit cannot die. But the human spirit can, just like the rest of the animal kingdom.
You:
We must per believe Jesus as Moses said, “the LORD shall raise up unto you a “prophet” like me”. Moses saw Jesus as another anointed human being, just like himself. Who as he did, would carry a message from GOD as he had.Me: This doesn’t mean that Christ did not have the holy spirit in him. You wouldn’t think that God would anoint Christ for a special function as an embryo in the womb of his mother, would you. Neither would he anoint a newbie Christian for a special function until he matured in the spirit first.
You:
There is no recordings of Jesus performing any miracles at all untill he was anointed by John at the JORDAN RIVER. That is when the fullnes of GOD CAME TO BE “IN” THE MAN JESUS.Me: There is no recording of everyone on this forum performing miracles either. Being born of the spirit does not mean being anointed.
You:
PERHAPS A DESCUSION OF WHAT “IS” SPIRIT would help resolve this issue, tell us what is your opinion of what a spirit realy is.
TO ME SPIRIT IS OUR COGNATE INTELLECTS, THESE COGNISITIES COME IN VERIOUS TYPES AND KINDS.
THERE ARE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD, SCRIPTURE SAYS. All these seven now dwell in the man Jesus, but that does not make the man Jesus a God, because all of God’s spirits are “in” him. When these spirits are coupled with power, then a person can act as God, therefore when God the Father says unto the son “thy kingdom “O” God is a everlasting kingdom’, he is speaking to the seven spirits that are in Jesus, not to the man Jesus himself. IMO
JESUS will use those seven spirits with seven powers to establish the kingdom of God on this earth, and then he will turn that kingdom back to GOD, AND BECOME SUBJECT TO IT JUST AS WE WILL. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……geneMe: Seems true enough, add life.
Hi Gene,
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Me: Here soul means the entire entity.
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his (man’s) spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Me: Perish means totally not in existence. Emphasis in the parenthesis is mine.
Eccl 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Psalms 73:22 I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before you.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Eccl 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Me: When man dies, his body, soul, mind, and heart corrupts. If he is a Christian or OT saints, he has a new mind, heart, and spirit. He will have a new body at Christ’s return. The man born and baptized of the holy spirit at his death has his heart and mind together wit the holy spirit ascend into heaven
Hi TC,
Let the Spirit in scripture speak and listen.
You are far too keen to show us your understandings of individual verses.
But you are not the light that has come into the world so your opinions of scripture verses add nothing useful to truth.
This is good advice Nick. Have you thought about adhering to it regarding this scripture?
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
Hi T8,
Dig deeper.
This means no Nick. You haven’t considered this.
T8….Jesus did not become the savior until he was sacrificed by God the father for the sins of the world. “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son. God the father was the saviour and “he” did it through Jesus, just as God saved ancient Israel and did it through Moses. You are still putting the cart before the horse. Being born for something as Paul said he was doesn’t mean your are that something till it happens. Tell us when did Jesus become a saviour at birth or when he died for our sins? Who did Jesus save at his birth, Please name one, then i would say you have a point.
Scripture says we were predestined to salvation but are we there yet, i think not. But that is our destiny right? It is our hope as we move forward by “FAITH” TOWARDS THAT GOAL.
Lets be honest, Your using this to shore up you false teachings of Jesus prexisting his birth on this earth. You seem to think prophesy takes place when prophecied, and while it will come about in the process of time, it still doesn’t occure till it accures. Yes Jesus was born to be the saviour that was his propose of existence, his destiny, no one is arguing that point not even Nick.
Why do you keep jumping on Nick every time you get a chance, is it because he diagree with you, well so do I when it comes to this subject, and the preexistence of Jesus, that you preach. Are we not still all growing in our understandings of things? Is patience no longer a virtue?
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
To add to Jesus receiving holy spirit at Jordan.
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.After Pentecost
Act 11:15 And as I (Peter) began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them (Gentiles), as on us (Jews) at the beginning (Pentecost).
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?Hi Watchman,
You wrote:
Again, spirit upon conditions before Pentecost, spirit unconditionally after Pentecost. Getting born again is God Creating His Spirit in you (Col 3:10). Create means to bring in to existence something that didn’t exist. GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, created seed in MARY to bring about the flesh man JESUS who became the THE CHRIST anointed of GOD at Jordan fulfilling prophecy.
ISV – Col 3:10 and have clothed yourselves with the new nature, which is being renewed in full knowledge, consistent with the image of the one who created it.
ISV – Eph 4:24 and to clothe yourselves with the new nature, which was created according to God’s image in righteousness and true holiness.
No one suggested the baptism of John brings the holy spirit. As you said, John and the other OT prophets had the same spirit, but, being born again of the spirit wasn’t available until Pentecost, that’s the whole point of Pentecost and the birth of the church, that’s why Jesus told his disciples to tarry/wait, so he could send another comforter. He taught them how to receive the holy spirit in John 20:22, but it wasn’t fulfilled until Pentecost.Me: The prophets were born of the spirit. The spirit went back to God after they died. The spirit of the unsaved did not go back to God. It died like their bodies did. The prophets were baptized in the holy spirit around Pentecost. So in a sense, we are both saying that the holy spirit was temporarily given to them. But it was permanent after they were baptized with that same spirit.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet____; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Me: Between John the Baptist and the resurrection of Christ, the spirit of God was not given. Only the baptism of repentant was performed. These could not receive the holy spirit because the heart and mind of Christ was not fully integrated into the holy spirit. It was given to the apostles (John 20:22) after the Messiah’s resurrection but without the power of the human mind of Christ in it. After Christ had risen in glory after he had ascended into heaven, it could be given with power, because Christ was born of the spirit with power (Romans 1:3). No one could be saved without the baptism of the holy spirit. (John 3:5, John 7:37-39).
You: Pentecost is the fulfillment of prophecy of the outpouring of holy spirit for all who believe and call upon the name of Jesus the Christ and get born again. This was not available until then. Yes, previously they had holy spirit as God chose whom he would to speak/execute his Word, but it wasn’t available for just anyone to choose and receive until Pentecost (50th day after Passover-completion of harvest). If there is proof of being born again otherwise, please provide the scriptures that directly say that so I can examine.
Me: It is only those now who God has called and chosen in this firstfruits generation that can be saved before the millennium. It is a small harvest only available to a few now (Matt 22:14, 1 Peter 2:9). The great fall harvest is when the Messiah comes back (Isa 11:9, Hak 2:14).
Luke 1:35 (interlinear Bible) And answering the angel said to her spirit holy will come upon you and power of the most high will overshadow you therefore also the one being born holy one will be called Son of God.
Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 1080 above “being born”. The definition is as follows:
1080. gennaó :NASB Translation
bear (1), bearing children (1), became the father of (4), became…father (1), begotten (4), bore (1), born (41), Child (1), conceived (1), father (37), Father (1), gave (1), gives birth (1), produce (1).https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-35.htm
Me: The Messiah was called the son of God from conception. He was the only one with that title before Pentecost. The holy spirit was available after Pentecost because it had the mind and heart of Christ in it. Therefore, the OT dead along with the NT church could be baptized in the spirit and rise with him as sons of God.
The holy child in Luke 1:35 was holy because he had the spirit of God from conception.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord,…
Me: God’s word is truth. When comprehending bible scripture, there is sometimes an understanding on the scripture on the surface, as well as an spiritual enlightment beneath, if that is possible. If it is, and fits in with other scripture, it is so.
As it is past the resurrection and glorification of Christ, when Ephesians 4:4 was written, both surface and subsurface can be examined. A. It is true that the body of Christ is the church, and the one spirit is the holy spirit. B. It is also true on the surface that Christ (vs 5) is composed of one body and one spirit. The Messiah did not die of his inner man. He did not have death and the consequential sin in his flesh. He was the lamb of God without sport. He did never did have a human spirit. He must have had the holy spirit as his only spirit in his human mind from birth. Thus, he was conceived with the holy spirit from birth. Focusing on “ one Lord” in verse 5, we have one Lord with one body and one spirit who is our one hope.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Me: We receive Christ when we who are alive are baptized with the holy spirit after water baptism. When we are baptized in the name of Christ, we are calling upon the Lord to same us (Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32). Those in the grave before Christ’s ascencion into heaven will be baptized into his death, and risen to life.
All this is not to say that the Messiah was not begotten as a msn with the seed of David. For the holy spirit was in his human heart and mind.
TC….Spirit to me is what life ITSELF is, it dwells in bodies that God made, all kinds of them, including us. WHEN spirit is combined with a body, then a soul exists, Just as genesis says. When that spirit i taken away from that body that soul dies forever. But a new soul can be regenerated at a later date, by taking the DNA of the old body, and reproducing a new exact copy, much like cloning that we do today, every cell in the new body is exactly like the old body, that is what happens when we plant different seeds a new copy of the old is reproduced.
When we are resurected back to life that takes place, God the father remanufactures a new body for us and adds back into it spirit, and we again become living souls. But until that happens, after death, we simply no longer exist as anything, we truly are in a parished state for ever, unless God the Father restores us, we would never live again. That is why scripture say fear God who can destory “both body and soul” in the grave. He could simply leave us there and we would no longer ever exist again.
It is apsolutely crucial we obtain the resurection from the dead, or we are gone for ever. To think anyone but Jesus has been resurected back to life is simply not true, Jesus is the firstfruit of them that sleep, them they who are his “at his comming”, the trumpet shall sound and they who have died in the the lord shall be raised “first” and then they who are alive shall be changed also wth new bodies of flesh and bone drived from the spirit, and raise and meet the lord in the air. That is the way i see it brother.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
TheWW….Yes Jesus did not exist forever nor before his birth on this earth, HE came from the loins of king David, just as he said Rev 22:6 “I am the root and offspring of David” AND again Paul said Acts 2:29-30, Jesus came from the loins of king David.
God the Father became his “spiritual” father when he recieved his spirit at the Jordan river. After that Jesus was sent first be tested, then sent out into the world to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God, with great power and athuority to perform mircales, cast out evil spirits, heal the sick, cleans the leopards, proclaim the acceptable day of the LORD.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Nick and Gene,
Micah 5:2 is clearly makes two points:
1. the spirit of Christ was with Jesus at his birth IN BETHLEHEM.
………..– and –
2. the spirit of Christ preexisted Jesus birthHi Ed,
No Micah 5.2 does not say either of those things.
You must have added your ideas.
Hi Nick it sure does, look at it again:
“But thou, (1)Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
(2)whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)Point number 2 does not zip forward to the Jordan river – CONTEXT NICK!
____________
God bless
Ed JHi Ed,
The Jews and even Herod understood it to mean the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
He was, but you find some deeper mystical meaning?
Edj…The very work “Christ”, means to be anointed. So when was Jesus “anointed” before his birth? Was that some how “secretly” done before he was even born? Why was he baptized for, why did the spirit decend as a dove and remain on him then if he were already anointed with it, why did he do no mircales untill after he was anointed, why was he tested after he was anointed, why was he not sent out into the world untill after he was anointed at the Jordan river?
As Nick said, you are producing a mystery form of religion.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Guys,
Even if you attempt to water Micah 5:2 down
to ‘GOING FROM WAY BACK’ instead of from eternity,
You are still left with ‘FROM WAY BACK’ to “BETHLEHEM”;
not ‘FROM WAY BACK’ to ‘Jordan’ like you two keep peddling.Why can’t you just address this inconsistency in your doctrine ???
Saying he was predicting Christ doesn’t not nullify my points NICK!1. Spirit of Christ preexisted Jesus’ conception and subsequent birth.
2. Spirit of Christ came from eternity (or from way back) TO BETHLEHEM!Point #2 is clearly being said Nick, so PLEASE ADDRESS THISSSSS!!!!!!!!!!
____________
God bless
Ed J
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