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Hi KW,
Do you think you can analyse the Spirit using human tools?
What you quoted shows the grace of God was sufficient for forgiveness under the Law.
Nick,
Once again I will point out that the new covenant is superior to the old.
The Spirit is the lens by which the Spiritual human analyses. God tells us to test the Spirit; why do you doubt.
If a person cannot determine if the Spirit is from God or not then they are blind and need eyes to see and ears to hear.
Hi,
The word obviously has different meanings in scripture, but the word is also a being.
Here are a few examples.
Genesis 15:
[1] After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
[2] But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Elie’zer of Damascus?”
[3] And Abram said, “Behold, thou hast given me no offspring; and a slave born in my house will be my heir.”
[4] And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, “This man shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir.”
[5] And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
[6] And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.As you can see the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision and said…”…………………”
This is not just a voice but a person/ being. It is a VISION, and visions are SEEN. The person/ being called (the word of the Lord), TOOK Abram outside in the vision.
Another example of the word appearing as a person/ being in the OT is the story of Samuel, (1st Samuel 3).
[1] Now the boy Samuel was ministering to the LORD under Eli. And the word of the LORD was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision.
[2] At that time Eli, whose eyesight had begun to grow dim, so that he could not see, was lying down in his own place;
[3] the lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying down within the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was.
[4] Then the LORD called, “Samuel! Samuel!” and he said, “Here I am!”
[5] and ran to Eli, and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I did not call; lie down again.” So he went and lay down.
[6] And the LORD called again, “Samuel!” And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I did not call, my son; lie down again.”
[7] Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, and the word of the LORD had not yet been revealed to him.
[8] And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” Then Eli perceived that the LORD was calling the boy.
[9] Therefore Eli said to Samuel, “Go, lie down; and if he calls you, you shall say, `Speak, LORD, for thy servant hears.'” So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
[10] And the LORD came and stood forth, calling as at other times, “Samuel! Samuel!” And Samuel said, “Speak, for thy servant hears.”
[11] Then the LORD said to Samuel, “Behold, I am about to do a thing in Israel, at which the two ears of every one that hears it will tingle.
[12] On that day I will fulfill against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end.
[13] And I tell him that I am about to punish his house for ever, for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons were blaspheming God, and he did not restrain them.
[14] Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be expiated by sacrifice or offering for ever.”
[15] Samuel lay until morning; then he opened the doors of the house of the LORD. And Samuel was afraid to tell the vision to Eli.
[16] But Eli called Samuel and said, “Samuel, my son.” And he said, “Here I am.”
[17] And Eli said, “What was it that he told you? Do not hide it from me. May God do so to you and more also, if you hide anything from me of all that he told you.”
[18] So Samuel told him everything and hid nothing from him. And he said, “It is the LORD; let him do what seems good to him.”
[19} And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him and let none of his words fall to the ground.
[20] And all Israel from Dan to Beer-sheba knew that Samuel was established as a prophet of the LORD.
[21] And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD.Verse one associates the word of the Lord with visions, again. Visions are SEEN, not only heard. The word of the Lord is both calling Samuel and “coming and standing forth”. Then it says the word of God APPEARED again at Shiloh. “For the LORD revealed himself …….. by the word of the Lord”.
Jeremiah 1:
[1] The words of Jeremiah, the son of Hilki’ah, of the priests who were in An’athoth in the land of Benjamin,
[2] to whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josi’ah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
[3] It came also in the days of Jehoi’akim the son of Josi’ah, king of Judah, and until the end of the eleventh year of Zedeki’ah, the son of Josi’ah, king of Judah, until the captivity of Jerusalem in the fifth month.
[4] Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
[5] “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
[6] Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, I do not know how to speak, for I am only a youth.”
[7] But the LORD said to me, “Do not say, `I am only a youth’;
for to all to whom I send you you shall go,
and whatever I command you you shall speak.
[8] Be not afraid of them,
for I am with you to deliver you, says the LORD.”
[9] Then the LORD put forth his hand and touched my mouth; and the LORD said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.Here, the word not only speaks to Jeremiah, but also reaches out his hand and touches his mouth.
“the word’ is a being; not always ‘just spoken words’.
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'”)
[16] And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace.
[17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
[18] No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.His is more in line with many English translations while mine is based on the Koine Greek and a few of the English translations as well previous words between the Jews and Jesus in the same chapter. Both are true and might of been meant from Jesus as sometimes God use the same words to mean more than one thing.
The rest are all simultaneous understandings in which Jesus is calling the the Spirit of God that is his Spirit, himself. It is not easy to understand but if Jesus wanted it to be easy to understand then he would have spoken clearly.
Kerwin, I have studied the Greek; and I even reached the same conclusion as you (only because it’s what I wanted to believe). But something doesn’t fit – and you know that. You have to force it.
Miia…..You left off part of JOHN 3:12. IT SAYS “the son of man, “who is “IN” heaven.” I CHECKED IT OUT IN A GREEK LINEAR TRANSLATION, and it does seem to appear somewhat different,but the “who is “IN” heaven”, is still there. I have noticed others who try to force the text to imply JESUS as a preexisting sentinal being, who decended from heaven, often do the samething.
Miia, another interesting point is where it says “IN” heaven, the GREEK text i read, shows the word “TO” LEFT OUT OF OUR TRANSLATIONS, another words it actually says “IN TO” HEAVEN. This could mean Jesus was simply saying he was heavenly connected, or in to heaven as connect to heavwn, not that he actually himself decended from heaven, and we all know he was spiritually connected to GOD who is in heaven, by the anointing spirit of GOD.
Miia, where it say “the word became flesh” is not properly understood, no word ever became flesh, what that is saying is simply that the word which is GOD “came to be” in flesh, the flesh man JESUS. IT took place when he was baptized by John , the sirit of God decended to earth and took dwelt “IN” THE MAN JESUS, therefore that which came down from heaven, THE SPIRIT OF GOD, also ACCENDED back to heaven in the reserected MAN JESUS.
“now if the spirit of him that raised JESUS the CHRIST from the dead “dwell” in you, he, (GOD), shall “ALSO” (like he did Jesus), quicken your mortal bodies”.
You see no difference at all, what the spirit did for Jesus it can also do for us. JESUS did not DECEND from heaven, the SPIRIT OF GOD DID, and took his abode in the flesh of the “MAN” JESUS, ” THAT GOD MAYBE”IN” ALL AND “THROUGH” ALL”, and again, “KNOW you not that your body “is” the “TEMPLE” of the “living God”, and again, what did the spirit of God which was in JESUS say?, “destory this “temple” and IN THREE DAYS I (the spirit of the living God) shall raise i up.”
JESUS IS AN “EXACT” REPLICA OF WHAT GOD CAN DO IN EACH AN EVERYONE OF US. We should not move JESUS away from our exact human idenity with him, as others do, that is exactly what SATAN’S DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION is all about, and nearly all of Christendom has fallen for that LIE.
SATAN DOES NOT WAN US TO SEE OUR POTENTIAL IN THE “MAN” JESUS.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Gene, you are focusing on John 3.12’s wording but what about other scripture? (I’ll get back to this).
Miia,
Kerwin, I have studied the Greek; and I even reached the same conclusion as you (only because it’s what I wanted to believe). But something doesn’t fit – and you know that. You have to force it.
I do not see where the idea that Jesus is speaking of the Spirit of God as him as forced in any of the verses you mentioned previously. If you believe it is forced then please explained why.
I do know that in order to see him as preexisting his own conception in Mary that you have to ignore that Scripture teaches that is where he came from. In short the interpreted has already removed Jesus’ body from the claim “I come from above” or its equivalent.
All that remains it his soul, spirit, and the Spirit that God gives him.
In short there is definitely a case where a part of the being is called by the whole. This usually implied the part that contains the identity, which is the soul. For example the rich man went to Sheol when he died even though it is known is body lay in its burial place. In this case it is meant to reveal Jesus Spiritual unity with God and the angels of God and so it is speaking of the Holy Spirit.
There is no stretch there it is just a way of looking at Scripture that is repentant on what you find important, the physical location of Jesus’ beginnings or the Spiritual location of his beginnings.
Miaa,
I am going to address John 8:58 because most translations choose an interpretation that is friendly to their viewpoint instead of relying on readers to come to their own conclusion.
I am not sure if “I am” is even proper grammar in the sentence. It is possible since it is also written “I am with you always…”
This is the best translation of the words I have found since genesthai is often translated to to become/became. Born and made and other choices are base on the assumed meaning of the unbelieving words mentioned in the previews verse. They do not even get them correct as the Jews do not express the believe they think Jesus is claiming he is older than Abraham.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.What Jesus did say it that Abraham rejoiced that he might see Jesus’ day and that Abraham saw that day and was glad. It is nothing different than is said about the prophets elsewhere.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.Here is a paraphrase of the same words.
New Living Translation
Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”I can explain more but Scripture teaches us that Abraham was made the father of many nations and uses the word genesthai to do so. Translators also have also translated egō eimi to I am Christ or I am he is a few places.
In conclusion Jesus simply ignored to words of the unbelievers and reinforce the message he was teaching.Miia,
Hebrews 1:1-2Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The word that spoke to Abraham cannot be Jesus since it would violate the first words of these two verses and Scripture is not broken.
The title “the Son” is vague because it can be used to indicate more than one relationship that is as a Son. For example a student is the child of their teach by way of what they are taught. You already know of Spiritual children and those of the flesh. Philo of Alexandria, a man of Jesus’ time taught the logos that comes out of God’s mouth is God’s Son and there are Jewish works that refer to his Wisdom as his daughter.
Never the less I believe this passage is directly speaking of Jesus because of the mention that implies his time. Because of that belief I believe that the word di’ should be translated on account of instead of through. Both choices fit into the short definition according to biblehub.com and the context would determine which use is correct. The translators of all of the versions at biblehub favor through or it equivalent. I have no means to settle the controversy except to point out that it is a controversy as we do not use the literal equivalent of di’ as the people of that time and culture did.
Nick….I also believe that SPIRIT does not represent the whole “BEING”, IT IS WHAT ABIDES “IN” BEINGS. Just as it says, “if the “spirit” of him that raised Christ Jesus from the dead , “abides” “IN” you, he or “it” shall quicken your mortal bodies”. BUT, a being, can not “live” without spirit “IN” it also. MAN WHO IS FLESH, was not a LIVING “BEING”, UNTIL THE BREATH OF LIFE WAS ADD, i believe a BEING IS MORE THEN JUST SPIRIT. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Nick, Gene, Kerwin, T8, Ed J,
Thank you for helping me to understand that the Father is the ONLY God.
On the point of pre-existence I’m still not sure.
God Bless you.
DannyDanny,
Jesus was tempted by sin even as is common to other humans while the one true God cannot be. If you are too blind to see that you accuse God of being subject to being tempted by evil when you claim Jesus is him then there is really nothing I can do to open your eyes though I am compelled to try.
Hi Kerwin and all. I’m sorry but my mind has been elsewhere, and I caught a virus. Have read your posts but no time to comment yet. Just to acknowledge.
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