- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Nick
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
did John and Paul are talking about about Jesus here or someone else ,and what make it so different that God talks through prophets but now through his son ; and through whom also he made the universe.
did they lie when they say this ? or was Jesus not with God when he made the universe THROUGH HIM ?
Hi t8,
Paul said
“we have this treasure in earthen vessels”
He was speaking to those on earth in their old bodies.
That body is changed later.
Is Jesus is just a body to you? Does he have a soul like us?
God does not have plans, He purposes according to His will. Plans fail, God does not (Isaiah 55:11-12).
The only reason everyone will not be saved is because everyone will not choose to turn to God. If we act outside of our own choice then we are programmed and are robots essentially. That would make this all just a big game therefore. That means free will is a lie and so is God for being directly behind and deliberately causing all evil. The whole doctrine contradicts itself and thus cannot stand. You cannot have free will in predestination. They are polar opposites and philosophy tries to mix oil with water. Knowing truth from what is false is tied to Hebrews 11:1. Knowing the truth is part of the faith process and is its foundation. Romans 10:11-15?
The truth is from scripture and is complete. The false message is incomplete and lacking foundation and maturity. Truth is harmonious across the entire bible and does not cherry-pick. Truth does not require alternative thinking or wordplay and does not contain philosophy.
All kingdoms have an elect, to care for the kingdom. The elect do God’s will… once they are elected to do so. People chose to turn away from God and love the lie… its their own choice (2Thessalonians 2). Finding out God is behind everything wrong with the universe just to fix something He saw as good from the start is quite depressing.“With the glory I HAD BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED” so how can Jesus possibly be speaking of predestination? Jesus literally spoke of his own past which predates the world! Revelation 3:14 says Jesus was the beginning of all creation. Colossians 1 says this several times. Jeremiah was not before the world as Jesus claimed to be. Despite God’s calling, people must still prove faithful to the calling by their own choice (Matthew 20:16). Jeremiah had to make a choice himself (Jeremiah 1:17). You have to test the spirits as 1John 4:1 says. This is how you know you have the truth. Acts 17:11 is also crucial. If a teaching conflicts with scripture, the teaching is false. It is good to stay away from false teachings when you see they’re false. You know they’re false when they contradict what you know to be truth as there’s only 1 faith. False teachers sound good but they are all selective in their doctrines thus there’s verses which contradict their teachings. John 8:58 speaks just as plainly that Jesus existed before Abraham. Predestination means everything that ever happened is completely God’s fault cause the doctrine ultimately holds that ‘man has no choice’! This is the whole free will ignorance and mind game because free will is your own choices. This doctrine also hangs heavily upon faith alone. That’s because its all about the ignorance of God’s choices and what it really means. Even after someone is chosen by God, they must prove faithful which alone contradicts predestination (Hebrews 6:4-6).
Predestination is a lie, there is no point in it and it goes against everything biblical by misusing a handful of verses and ignoring the rest. God does not know all. Genesis 18:21 reveals God came to know the situation in Sodom from the angels investigating. Psalms 14:2 says that God looks for those seeking Him which means He does not know everyone who will worship Him in advance. 2Peter 3:9 makes no sense is God already knows who will worship Him and who won’t. Its senseless for God to be long suffering and patient with people He already knows won’t worship. That’s just dumb (Isaiah 30:18). Do you understand how the tree of Romans 11 works. Romans 11:23 makes no sense if God already knows the outcome. Keep in mind, its not a matter of God’s ability to know, it’s a matter of His choosing to know which the bible reveals is not the case. Romans 11:28-32 goes a step further in how our own choices, despite God’s, determines the outcome. Nobody was made to go to hell because that makes God wicked and not good. There was nothing to save if Adam and Eve did not choose to go against free will. Predestination is not love but favoritism and partiality. God does love us 1st and set us up for hell before we have a chance to sin (1John 4:19)! Lol. God does not save anyone without their exercising free will to worship and continue to stick with Him. Without knowing who God and Jesus are, there is no life to look forward to (John 17:3). This whole issue began in the Garden over free will so that’s the issue. Life comes about the same way it was lost, free will. God offered up Jesus but Jesus said he surrendered his own life. Abraham offered Isaac but Isaac didn’t fight it any more than Jesus. Only those doing God’s will can be saved (Matthew 7:21-27). We still have to obey the laws of Christ! God bless!! 🙂“With the glory I HAD BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED” so how can Jesus possibly be speaking of predestination? Jesus literally spoke of his own past which predates the world! Revelation 3:14 says Jesus was the beginning of all creation.
I agree, but some here take these very scriptures and get an opposite meaning. Why? Because they start with a hypothesis and then write off any scripture that challenges it. I have no respect for such behavior. It is better to read what it says and believe it, even if it doesn’t fit one’s current view on things. We can then put all truth together and it should paint the whole picture for us eventually. Many never get to that stage because they want the truth to be something they thought of earlier on. They then defend their position and nothing, not even scripture will sway them.
For me it is part of human nature. If you are American you believe the USA is the best country. If you are Australian, you believe Australia is the best country. If you live in Chelsea you support Chelsea football team. People are tribal and products of their surroundings. If a Christian was taught something early on, they are just as vulnerable to be patriotic to that belief even if they later find that the Bible appears to oppose it. Not all are like that of course. It is a very human problem though.
When people start with a belief, then they fit all into it. But followers of Jesus Christ should be different. They should be able to incorporate truth as we journey on the path. We should go from glory to glory and as we move, blemishes should be disappearing. Jesus is coming back for a bride without spot and blemish. He hasn’t returned yet for a reason.
Hi Tonya,
The whole world is under the power of the evil one.
If God chooses us He provides us with the grace to escape this bondage and become overcomers.
Just like Jesus-rev 3
Hi t8,
Just a body?
Men are more than bodies .
All men are composed of body, soul, spirit. Agree or disagree?
T8,
All physical things have a beginning of course. But that is the shell. It is not life. Not the eternal life that was with the Father.
Don’t mix physical and spirit. Is it [beyond] God’s power to send someone that is with him to partake in flesh for our sakes?
Did Jesus come in the flesh. If so, then what exactly is Jesus if he has flesh?
1) The eternal life that is with God is his Spirit; which also bears the name of Christ. (Galatians 6:8)
2) Human beings are compost of the physical side and the spiritual side. The physical side is flesh and the spiritual side is both soul and spirit. Scripture teaches that Jesus was conceived which leads me to believe that means the whole human being. It emphasizes that in regards to the flesh, which could be either the body or the whole human, Jesus is descended from King David through Mary his descendant. (Romans 1:3 and Galatians 4:4)
3) “come in the flesh” is an idiom which means more than one thing. If it is taken literally then it could mean Jesus esssential being, aka soul, came in the flesh. I scanned the Trinitarian commentaries at bible hub and all of them felt they needed other passages to support their chosen interpretation. It is vague passage which I think is an answer to Gnostic claims that Jesus did not have a physical body and to Jews who did not believe the Anointed had come.
4) “come in the flesh” and “partake in flesh and blood” are both idioms and so confusing for those that do not fluenly speak the dead Koine Greek language. The later idiom is used both for humans in general and for Jesus Christ in Hebrews 2:14 revealing it was said of humans in general. Knowing certain Jewish beliefs on the matter of creation I am of the opinion that the flesh symbolizes the physical nature of humanity and blood the animal nature of humanity.
5) Scripture literally tells us Jesus was a human during his mortality (Acts 2:22) and has been one during his time in heaven. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
In conclusion Jesus Christ is a human being was physically present during his mortality and like other human being had, and may still have, both a physical and animal side.
Where does that leave John 17:5. The answer is either his soul was present and Jesus had already received the glory from God or God had already appointed Jesus king of all things in heaven and earth and Jesus would not receive that appointment until he chose to sacrifice himself for his brothers. I do not think the human soul is preexistant but there is a old teaching among early Christians and Jews that claims otherwise.
Tonya,
God does not have plans, He purposes according to His will. Plans fail, God does not (Isaiah 55:11-12).
I think your definition of plan is not the same as the one I or the NIV uses.
Jeremiah 29:11New International Version (NIV)
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Jeremiah 29:11Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Hi t8,
You ask
“All men are composed of body, soul, spirit. Agree or disagree?”
Yes but when we die we lose our own spirit and we are sustained by the Spirit of Christ-IF we have been reborn from above.
This is what happened to the one we follow.
Hi t8,
The ONLY part of a man that remains original is the SOUL.
The spirit leaves and the new body is put over the old if you are of Christ.
The soul of man does not preexist but came from the breath of God at creation as genesis shows
Hi AndrewAD:
God could have sent his Son into the world at any time, but if He had sent him prior to the appointed time, the latter days. This does, to me, does not imply pre-existence but that he was fore-ordained at a particular point in time so that he could offer himself once and for all as a sacrifice for the sins of those prior to his ministry and for those who would be reconciled to God through him since his ministry.
Galatians 4:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1 Peter 1:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Love in Christ,
MartyHi t8:
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven.
He came from heaven when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. His body is God’s “own flesh and flood”. We, that is our body did not come from heaven because we were born of the “sperm of man”. His spirit came from heaven beginning with when he was baptized with the Holy Spirit, and as applied the Word of God in his daily life without sin unto death on the cross.
His body is unique in that he was and is the only one who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, but our spirit also has come from heaven if we have been born again and are obeying his commandments.
John 6:
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
He was fore-ordained according to the plan and purpose of God, and so, he existed in this way, but not as living soul.
Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Love in Christ,
Martyhi Marty
can you include all the t8 OP verse into your explanation without breaking any of the scriptures ?
Hi 94,
He was conceived.
Mary is the physical mother of Jesus who provided half his chromosomes.
He was not only exclusively the physical son of God.
Hi 94,
He had a human spirit from conception till Calvary.
He was reborn from above and showed us how to follow him.
Hi Nick:
Well, I do know that he was born of the seed of David according to the flesh:
Romans 1King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
But this is what is the scripture to support what I have stated:
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.Love in Christ,
MartyHi Nick:
Hi 94,
He had a human spirit from conception till Calvary.
He was reborn from above and showed us how to follow him.
I don’t quite know what you are saying. Jesus was a man who had a flesh body but now is a man who has a spiritual body.
But his spirit is the life that he lives in the body, flesh or spiritual. He stated that “the words that he spoke to humanity from God were spirit and they were and are life, and the scripture states:
Romans 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Surely, Jesus had the spirit of Christ, if anyone does.
Love in Christ,
Marty
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
