Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:51)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,11:57) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,15:08) So from the above we can see that: Jesus is the Lord. The Lord is the Spirit. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the one who knows the deep things of God. The Spirit is not some other God, but is God's own Spirit. So then the teaching is that GOD knows the things of GOD?   How profound. Mike, There is only one God, there are a lot of men. The spirit of the one God knows the deep things of God just as the spirit in a man knows the deep things of the man. So, the spirit of the man is a PART OF that man, and likewise the spirit of God is a PART OF the one God. (1st Corinthians 2: 10-16) Hope that clears that up.

I think I'm starting to understand, 2B.

So you're saying that Jesus is a PART OF God, instead of the SON OF God, right?

And you're saying that John 1:1 speaks about a PART OF God being WITH God in the beginning, and also BEING the God it is only a PART OF.

Am I getting closer?

[terraricca]

2BEE

Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he(Christ) explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

how could Christ be the same words that he came to accomplish and that God as made written by his prophets ,of long ago,

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

2Jn 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.

2Jn 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh

Phil 2:6 who, although He(Christ) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son(Christ) is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:56)

Mike, WHY? As if there were other people who had been like Jesus?

Gene, are you hearing this?    2B is implying that there AREN'T any other people “EXACTLY” and “IDENTICALLY” like Jesus.  What do YOU think?  

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:56)

I do not see what your point is Mike with this.

You've already confirmed my point with your first statement above.  The point is that there is no other human being in the history of creation about whom it could be said, “he HAS COME in the flesh”.

It is ONLY said about Jesus – like you've agreed.  And the reason it is ONLY said about Jesus is because Jesus is the only human being who existed as something other than human being before he “came in the flesh”.

Now do you get the point?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,19:00)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,13:48) I CAN TELL YOU NOW THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT CHRIST OR THE SON OF GOD HIS THE HOLY SPIRIT T, SHOW ME ONE SINGLE VERSE THAT PROVES THAT JESUS WAS AN ANGEL OR A gOD

2B,

Is that question to Pierre your way of acknowledging you HAVEN'T given him one single scripture that says the Holy Spirit is God's Son?

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:32)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:56) Mike, WHY? As if there were other people who had been like Jesus? Gene, are you hearing this?    2B is implying that there AREN'T any other people “EXACTLY” and “IDENTICALLY” like Jesus.  What do YOU think?   Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:56) I do not see what your point is Mike with this. You've already confirmed my point with your first statement above.  The point is that there is no other human being in the history of creation about whom it could be said, “he HAS COME in the flesh”. It is ONLY said about Jesus – like you've agreed.  And the reason it is ONLY said about Jesus is because Jesus is the only human being who existed as something other than human being before he “came in the flesh”. Now do you get the point?

No mIke,
Jesus is the only one who existed who was perfect. He overcome and He is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of/over all of creation.

[2besee]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,15:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:32) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:56) Mike, WHY? As if there were other people who had been like Jesus? Gene, are you hearing this?    2B is implying that there AREN'T any other people “EXACTLY” and “IDENTICALLY” like Jesus.  What do YOU think?   Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,17:56) I do not see what your point is Mike with this. You've already confirmed my point with your first statement above.  The point is that there is no other human being in the history of creation about whom it could be said, “he HAS COME in the flesh”. It is ONLY said about Jesus – like you've agreed.  And the reason it is ONLY said about Jesus is because Jesus is the only human being who existed as something other than human being before he “came in the flesh”. Now do you get the point? No mIke, Jesus is the only one who existed who was perfect. He overcome and He is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of/over all of creation.

You may say that the reason is because He was different than us due to His virgin conception. But God KNEW that He would be perfect and so God made Him to be the second Adam.
Do you see this, or not?

If Jesus was half god and half man or an Angel, then how could He have overcome and why does it it say in Revelations “Weep not for behold – the Lion form the tribe of Judah He has overcome.”
Overcome what exactly if He was half god half man?

It doesn't make sense.

[2besee]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:36)

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,19:00) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,13:48) I CAN TELL YOU NOW THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT CHRIST OR THE SON OF GOD HIS THE HOLY SPIRIT T, SHOW ME ONE SINGLE VERSE THAT PROVES THAT JESUS WAS AN ANGEL OR A gOD 2B, Is that question to Pierre your way of acknowledging you HAVEN'T given him one single scripture that says the Holy Spirit is God's Son?

Neither you or T can answer me.
One verse to show us simply and in plain English that Jesus was an Angel or a god.

Those words.

And also, the verses that i gave you do say that Jesus is the Lord, and the Lord is the Spirit, and that there is only one Spirit, so do the maths.

And then are the verses that i showed you where Jesus says that He goes away and as we know Jesus went to Heaven, and also as I showed you, Jesus said that HE would come to us. So who there was speaking? It was the Holy Spirit that was sent to be with them and us forever (until the end).

I will wait to see your one verse.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,08:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:36) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,19:00) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,13:48) I CAN TELL YOU NOW THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT CHRIST OR THE SON OF GOD HIS THE HOLY SPIRIT T, SHOW ME ONE SINGLE VERSE THAT PROVES THAT JESUS WAS AN ANGEL OR A gOD 2B, Is that question to Pierre your way of acknowledging you HAVEN'T given him one single scripture that says the Holy Spirit is God's Son? Neither you or T can answer me. One verse to show us simply and in plain English that Jesus was an Angel or a god. Those words. And also, the verses that i gave you do say that Jesus is the Lord, and the Lord is the Spirit, and that there is only one Spirit, so do the maths. And then are the verses that i showed you where Jesus says that He goes away and as we know Jesus went to Heaven, and also as I showed you, Jesus said that HE would come to us. So who there was speaking? It was the Holy Spirit that was sent to be with them and us forever (until the end). I will wait to see your one verse.

2BEE

i JUST SHOWED YOU A SET OF VERSES YOU DO NOT READ THEM AND STICK WITH YOUR QUESTION

DO YOU WANT ME TO SHOW UP AT YOUR FRONT DOOR TO SHOW IT IN YOUR BIBLE

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,15:09)

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son(Christ) is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

That verse does not prove clearly that Jesus pre-existed as an Angel or a god of some type.
It is talking about what will be.

Quote

2BEE Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he(Christ) explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. how could Christ be the same words that he came to accomplish and that God as made written by his prophets ,of long ago, Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God. Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him 2Jn 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever: 2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love. 2Jn 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 2Jn 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh Phil 2:6 who, although He(Christ) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

I have already gone over most of those verses T in the other thread – but will look into Revelations 19 more later.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,08:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:36) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,19:00) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,13:48) I CAN TELL YOU NOW THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT CHRIST OR THE SON OF GOD HIS THE HOLY SPIRIT T, SHOW ME ONE SINGLE VERSE THAT PROVES THAT JESUS WAS AN ANGEL OR A gOD 2B, Is that question to Pierre your way of acknowledging you HAVEN'T given him one single scripture that says the Holy Spirit is God's Son? Neither you or T can answer me. One verse to show us simply and in plain English that Jesus was an Angel or a god. Those words. And also, the verses that i gave you do say that Jesus is the Lord, and the Lord is the Spirit, and that there is only one Spirit, so do the maths. And then are the verses that i showed you where Jesus says that He goes away and as we know Jesus went to Heaven, and also as I showed you, Jesus said that HE would come to us. So who there was speaking? It was the Holy Spirit that was sent to be with them and us forever (until the end). I will wait to see your one verse.

2BE

show the scriptures or are you scare to do so

because they do not mean what you really want them to say ,so you rather stick to publish opinions with NO scriptures,

and you know that you do not answer my questions in my quotes why is that

[2besee]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,16:06)

DO YOU WANT ME TO SHOW UP AT YOUR FRONT DOOR TO SHOW IT IN YOUR BIBLE

No thank you!  

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,09:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,16:06) DO YOU WANT ME TO SHOW UP AT YOUR FRONT DOOR TO SHOW IT IN YOUR BIBLE No thank you!

[2besee]

T, not one verse to show me – you cannot find one verse that says in plain English that Jesus pre-existed as a god or as an Angel.

[terraricca]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,09:11)

T, not one verse to show me – you cannot find one verse that says in plain English that Jesus pre-existed as a god or as an Angel.

did you look at all the scriptures i have quoted you it seems not ,

they are only a few quotes before this one look for it they are many that i post ;

if you continue to tell me the same thing i will start to think that you are a joker and has much time on his hands to waste ,I do not have that time left in me so what I say must be true to scriptures ,if you like to stop our discussion on this subject just give me the word ;I will not have lost anything ,but you would .

[terraricca]

2bee

Quote

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,15:09) Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son(Christ) is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. That verse does not prove clearly that Jesus pre-existed as an Angel or a god of some type. It is talking about what will be.

yeah got it ,you do not know the scriptures ,what you are doing is going everywhere to find Gods knowledge except you refuse to GO to the the source .THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES, AND SO BY THE TIME YOU ARE DONE YOU WILL END UP REJECTING GODS WILL BECAUSE IT SEEMS MORE CONFUSING THAN TRUTH ,AND SO SATAN GOT YOU ,

[2besee]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,16:08)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,15:09) Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son(Christ) is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. That verse does not prove clearly that Jesus pre-existed as an Angel or a god of some type. It is talking about what will be. Quote 2BEE Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he(Christ) explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. how could Christ be the same words that he came to accomplish and that God as made written by his prophets ,of long ago, Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God. Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him 2Jn 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever: 2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love. 2Jn 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 2Jn 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh Phil 2:6 who, although He(Christ) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. I have already gone over most of those verses T in the other thread – but will look into Revelations 19 more later.

I did answer you T, I will bump it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,20:46)

No mIke, Jesus is the only one who existed who was perfect. He overcome and He is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of/over all of creation.

So you're saying that John's words, “has come in the flesh”, have to do with Jesus being perfect and overcoming? Hmmmm……..

[mikeboll64]

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,20:52)

If Jesus was half god and half man or an Angel, then how could He have overcome and why does it it say in Revelations “Weep not for behold – the Lion form the tribe of Judah He has overcome.” Overcome what exactly if He was half god half man?

Do you guys ever actually listen to what we DO say?

I have never claimed that a spoken word became flesh, but Gene always tells me how odd that claim is.

I have never said that Jesus was “half man/half god”, yet here you are, telling me how it makes no sense.

What I claim is that Jesus was existing as a powerful spirit being (an angel). And then God caused this angel to be born out of a human woman's womb. Once born of Mary, he was indeed human. Once raised, he again became the angel he was before – only exalted to an even higher position than the one he left, and given the name above all other names.

This is what John 17:5 is about, 2B. Jesus is saying he has accomplished what God sent him to accomplish, and asking God if He could now place him back in the glorious position he had previously – before the world began.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,06:23)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,03:08) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 23 2013,14:28) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,13:26) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 23 2013,06:46) K you do not see what you are saying ,and do not understand it neither , that what you say his false; Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. and you have the reason for him to send the comforter to his disciples wrong ; the comforter was send to them in replacement of him going away and so that they would not feel lost being alone ;this was the true reason T, Quote It is expedient for you that I go away. Jesus' death and ascension is important. Quote for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; If Jesus didn't die and ascend then no Comforter would have come. Quote but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Only when Jesus departs is he able to send the Comforter. After Jesus departed he told the Eleven that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to him. When Jesus is given the authority he gains the ability to send the Comforter. K do you not feel that you have to lie to explain your opinion you do not show scriptures because you know you twisting and lie,or are you testing me if you gamble on my ignorance of the scriptures I do hope you bring your view into the truth , Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Jn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Jn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. and NO,it is not his dead that means his “going away “”read the last verse I quoted Jn 16;7 Jesus says specifically THAT HE WILL SEND INTO THEM ” CAN YOU READ THAT YES   AND HE DID NOT SEND IT BEFORE THE PENTECOST,WEN THEY ALL WERE INSIDE THE UPPER ROOM RIGHT YES T, There is no lie in what I wrote. I used two scriptures which are John 16:7 and Matthew 28:18. I paraphrased parts of John 16:7 in hopes of making their meaning clear. I am of the belief that his going away started with his self sacrifice and accumulates with his sitting on his throne that is in heaven. As you write, Jesus did not use his authority to send the Spirit until after he was siting on his throne in heaven.  Never the less he states he has the authority to do so after his resurrection but before his ascension. K Quote There is no lie in what I wrote. so why could I show you scriptures that are saying the exact opposite of what you quoted as to be true to me ?

T,

You didn't quote such a scripture.

I wrote “accumulates” when I meant culminates.

The bottom line is Jesus had the power to send the Spirit before his ascension but not before he went away.

So go away may only mean his death and resurrection.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

This is what John 17:5 is about, 2B. Jesus is saying he has accomplished what God sent him to accomplish, and asking God if He could now place him back in the glorious position he had previously – before the world began.

Not so much as Jesus never claimed that he was reappointed. Instead he said he was appointed.

Instead John 17:5 is Jesus asking for his glory that he had with Jehovah before the World began.

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