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Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:34) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2012,21:26) What Jesus said was as follows: Quote Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And he was speaking of the glory that God was about to give him by exalting to his current position as head of the church as the judge of the living and the dead. He said “Now” glorify me, not “now glorify me again”…with the glory that I had with thee before the world was”. This was foreordained.
Oh, I see.
So even though his actual words were “the glory I HAD”, you have taken it upon yourself to alter the meaning of those words and decide that Jesus should have said “the glory I was foreordained to someday have” – because that is what he meant, huh?
Let the actual written words of God teach you, Marty. God has no need for your interpretations that add to, take away from, or alter the meaning of what was clearly written.
Hi Mike:You already acknowledged that the glory of which he was speaking that he had, if he was speaking of some glory that he had in some pre-existant state, could not have been his position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church because the church did not exist at the beginning, yet he said, speaking to God our Father, Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory “which I had with thee before the world was.”
And so tell me what he meant by the scriptures?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I've already said twice, Jesus asked to be returned to his previous glory, but that's not what happened. Instead, God exalted him even higher than where he was when he was sent into the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2012,18:26) Hi MB,
Jesus Christ preexisted.
But not as a PERSON
The Word was with God
Nick,How do you define “god”? Do you define it like most today, as “THE Omniscient Creator of All Things” – and no one else?
Or do you define it as those who wrote the scriptures did?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:32) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:34) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2012,21:26) What Jesus said was as follows: Quote Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And he was speaking of the glory that God was about to give him by exalting to his current position as head of the church as the judge of the living and the dead. He said “Now” glorify me, not “now glorify me again”…with the glory that I had with thee before the world was”. This was foreordained.
Oh, I see.So even though his actual words were “the glory I HAD”, you have taken it upon yourself to alter the meaning of those words and decide that Jesus should have said “the glory I was foreordained to someday have” – because that is what he meant, huh?
Let the actual written words of God teach you, Marty. God has no need for your interpretations that add to, take away from, or alter the meaning of what was clearly written.
Hi Mike:You already acknowledged that the glory of which he was speaking that he had, if he was speaking of some glory that he had in some pre-existant state, could not have been his position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church because the church did not exist at the beginning, yet he said, speaking to God our Father, Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory “which I had with thee before the world was.”
And so tell me what he meant by the scriptures?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I've already said twice, Jesus asked to be returned to his previous glory, but that's not what happened. Instead, God exalted him even higher than where he was when he was sent into the world.
Hi Mike:I don't care how many times you said it. Can you back it up with scripture?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2012,18:26) Hi MB,
Jesus Christ preexisted.
But not as a PERSON
The Word was with God
Nick,How do you define “god”? Do you define it like most today, as “THE Omniscient Creator of All Things” – and no one else?
Or do you define it as those who wrote the scriptures did?
Hi MB,
My Father.Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2012,18:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:32) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:34) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2012,21:26) What Jesus said was as follows: Quote Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And he was speaking of the glory that God was about to give him by exalting to his current position as head of the church as the judge of the living and the dead. He said “Now” glorify me, not “now glorify me again”…with the glory that I had with thee before the world was”. This was foreordained.
Oh, I see.So even though his actual words were “the glory I HAD”, you have taken it upon yourself to alter the meaning of those words and decide that Jesus should have said “the glory I was foreordained to someday have” – because that is what he meant, huh?
Let the actual written words of God teach you, Marty. God has no need for your interpretations that add to, take away from, or alter the meaning of what was clearly written.
Hi Mike:You already acknowledged that the glory of which he was speaking that he had, if he was speaking of some glory that he had in some pre-existant state, could not have been his position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church because the church did not exist at the beginning, yet he said, speaking to God our Father, Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory “which I had with thee before the world was.”
And so tell me what he meant by the scriptures?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I've already said twice, Jesus asked to be returned to his previous glory, but that's not what happened. Instead, God exalted him even higher than where he was when he was sent into the world.
Hi Mike:I don't care how many times you said it. Can you back it up with scripture?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ.So Marty, although it is abundantly clear from 17:5 that Jesus had some kind of glory alongside his God before the world began, it is equally clear from many scriptures that he is now in a higher position than the one he left to be made into the likeness of a human being.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2012,19:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:37) Nick, How do you define “god”?
Hi MB,
My Father.
Then you are neglecting to use the definition used by the writers of the scriptures. It is no wonder that you are having trouble understanding titles like “God OF gods”, and “God Most High”. And Paul's statement that there are many gods in heaven and on earth, etc.Go back in time, Nick. Try understanding the word “god” the way it was understood by those who wrote down the scriptures.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2012,16:10) Hi T,
The 144,000 first fruits are from the twelve tribes of Israel.
Nyou mean that the gentiles have no part of it
???Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 19 2012,15:48) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2012,08:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2012,13:51) Hi ED,
Are you an equal to Jesus Christ?
No way.We are at best his wayward children and not fit to be called his brothers.
Nso you know you are not one of the 144k (first fruits) well this settled that
Hi Pierre,I see you run things through YOUR filter too. Mike does this as well.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjit is by his own admittance no ??
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,18:15) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2012,08:14) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 19 2012,12:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2012,11:18) Wrong. The Word wasn't made flesh until Jesus was born of Mary. Yet somehow, Paul says it was JESUS who was existing in the form of God before he was MADE INTO a human being. How did “JESUS” get into Paul's statement if “JESUS” wasn't really a part of the events described?
Let the scriptures teach you, Nick.
Mike,Never is Shaul [Paul] ever recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as saying “JESUS who was existing in the form of God before he was MADE INTO a human being.”
fhe did not have to it was common knowledge,
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
2Jn 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ
3Jn 1:8 We ought therefore to show hospitality to such men so that we may work together for the truth.
3Jn 1:9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us.
3Jn 1:10 So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
3Jn 1:11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Pierre,I am not speaking of what you refer to as “common knowledge”. I am speaking of what is actually said in Scripture from where we are to get our knowledge of the doctrine that it teaches and nowhere in Scripture does it ever say “JESUS who was existing in the form of God before he was MADE INTO a human being.”
Fto be honest ,what I have shown you is that among the first disciples of Christ (first 20 years) after his dead this was not a question all knew that Jesus was the son of God and so came down from beside his father to become the Christ fulfill his father will and return to his father for the next action ,this is what they have preached sins the beginning
Hi Mike:
You say:
Quote So Marty, although it is abundantly clear from 17:5 that Jesus had some kind of glory alongside his God before the world began, it is equally clear from many scriptures that he is now in a higher position than the one he left to be made into the likeness of a human being. If it is abundantly clear, you should be able to show by this by the scriptures. He had this glory because it was forseen that he would obey God without sin and be exalted to his position at the right hand of the Father as the head of the church.
Here is the scripture once again:
Quote Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory “which I had with thee before the world was.” Love in Christ,
MartyThat's right, Marty.
The glory “which I HAD with thee”.
If you want to pretend Jesus is not saying HE HAD glory with God before the world began, then that is your choice.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,12:21) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2012,18:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:32) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2012,14:34) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2012,21:26) What Jesus said was as follows: Quote Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And he was speaking of the glory that God was about to give him by exalting to his current position as head of the church as the judge of the living and the dead. He said “Now” glorify me, not “now glorify me again”…with the glory that I had with thee before the world was”. This was foreordained.
Oh, I see.So even though his actual words were “the glory I HAD”, you have taken it upon yourself to alter the meaning of those words and decide that Jesus should have said “the glory I was foreordained to someday have” – because that is what he meant, huh?
Let the actual written words of God teach you, Marty. God has no need for your interpretations that add to, take away from, or alter the meaning of what was clearly written.
Hi Mike:You already acknowledged that the glory of which he was speaking that he had, if he was speaking of some glory that he had in some pre-existant state, could not have been his position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church because the church did not exist at the beginning, yet he said, speaking to God our Father, Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory “which I had with thee before the world was.”
And so tell me what he meant by the scriptures?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I've already said twice, Jesus asked to be returned to his previous glory, but that's not what happened. Instead, God exalted him even higher than where he was when he was sent into the world.
Hi Mike:I don't care how many times you said it. Can you back it up with scripture?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ.So Marty, although it is abundantly clear from 17:5 that Jesus had some kind of glory alongside his God before the world began, it is equally clear from many scriptures that he is now in a higher position than the one he left to be made into the likeness of a human being.
Hi MB,
Was Jesus made into the likeness of a human being?
He already was one before the Jordan.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:29) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2012,12:56) Mike………..You ask how we would define the word GOD, I can give you my definition of the word , and will But now first give us YOUR Clouded one first. Then i will give you MINE> From the first meaning of the word GOD it self. I am Waiting?
From Webster's Dictionary:
any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature
Mike……..From the Ancient word Elohim Which is translated from Hebrew to the English word GOD or better said the Germanic word “Goth”, after all English is a Grammatic language.According to Jeff Benner of a Hebrew scholar, the word first used in the Hebrew text was in the pictorial language of the text, and it was a (symbol) and that symbol or picture was a Picture of a OX head with a Staff alongside it.
The OX head Symbolized (POWER) and the Staff was what they “LEANED ON” for support and trusted (IN) . So the word GOD has to do with POWER and TRUST. And all scripture backs that up. IMO
So the word Elohim was simply the POWER ISREAL TRUSTEED (IN) and Guess what, there was ONLY ONE POWER they called GOD and He is the ONE and ONLY “TRUE” GOD And that ONE GOD said He looked for another GOD and Said He found NONE. So you can believe Him and US or Not that is your Choice.
peace and love…………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,13:26) That's right, Marty. The glory “which I HAD with thee”.
If you want to pretend Jesus is not saying HE HAD glory with God before the world began, then that is your choice.
Mike,As a father my son had esteem [“glory”] before he came into existence and he did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being. Note that Yahshua is giving reference to the esteem [“glory”] that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began, not to his pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh as an actual being before the world began.
Frank………..You have presented it EXACTLY Right brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………gene
GOD
O.E. god “supreme being, deity,” from P.Gmc. *guthan (cf. Du. god, Ger. Gott, O.N. guð, Goth. guþ), from PIE *ghut- “that which is invoked” (cf. Skt. huta- “invoked,” an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- “to call, invoke.” But some trace it to PIE *ghu-to- “poured,” from root *gheu- “to pour, pour a libation” (source of Gk. khein “to pour,” khoane “funnel” and khymos “juice;” also in the phrase khute gaia “poured earth,” referring to a burial mound). “Given the Greek facts, the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound” [Watkins]. Cf. also Zeus. Not related to good. Originally neut. in Gmc., the gender shifted to masc. after the coming of Christianity. O.E. god was probably closer in sense to L. numen. A better word to translate deus might have been P.Gmc. *ansuz, but this was only used of the highest deities in the Gmc. religion, and not of foreign gods, and it was never used of the Christian God. It survives in Eng. mainly in the personal names beginning in Os-.
“I want my lawyer, my tailor, my servants, even my wife to believe in God, because it means that I shall be cheated and robbed and cuckolded less often. … If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” [Voltaire]
First record of Godawful “terrible” is from 1878; God speed as a parting is from c.1470. God-fearing is attested from 1835. God bless you after someone sneezes is credited to St. Gregory the Great, but the pagan Romans (Absit omen) and Greeks had similar customs.================================================
God is commonly used to designate: The Source of All CreationThe word God can be considered a Generic Title of Office, as it is not a Personal Name.
In the Book of Yahweh, the Source of All Creation is Yahweh, Yahweh is not a God. This is amongst the greatest errors in Human History to refer to Yahweh as God.
In each of these three verses, the word El has been translated power, which is power of man, not Yahweh. El, word #410 in the Hebrew Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance comes from another Hebrew word #352, which is the same as #193. The root of these words means powerful, mighty or strength.
The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 7, page 674, gives us the following information.
'El. The oldest Semitic term for God is `el (corresponding to Akkadian ilu (m), Canaanite 'el or 'il, and Arabic 'el as an element in personal names). The etymology of the word is obscure. It is commonly thought that the term derived from a root `yl or `wl meaning “to be powerful.”Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Hebrew Dictionary confirms this statement. El, comes from word #352, ayil, which means:
410. 'el, ale; short. from 352; strength; as adj. mighty; espec. the Almighty (but used also of any deity):—God, (god), x goodly, x great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Cop. names in “-el.”352. ayil, ah'yil; from the same as 193; prop. strength; hence anything strong; spec. a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:—mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.
Ayil is from the same unused root as uwl, ool, meaning:
193. uwl, ool; from an unused root mean. to twist. i.e. (by impl.) be strong; the body (as being rolled together); also powerful:—mighty, strength.We see that King David, a man after Yahweh's own heart, acknowledged that Yahweh was his strength, but certainly not a God.
Psalm 22:19—
But You, O Yahweh, be not far from Me! O My Strength, make haste to help Me!Strength in this verse is word #360 in the Hebrew Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and means power, by implication, protection, strength.
360. 'eyaluwth; eh-yah-looth'; fem. of 353; power; by imp. protection:—strength.Eyaluwth comes from the word eyal, which comes from ayil, which comes from the same unused root uwl, which means:
353. eyal, eh-yawl'; a var. of 352; strength; strength.Psalm 22:1, “My Yl” and Psalm 22:19, “My Strength,” have the same root word, and the same meaning: My Strength.
We have already read that El and Elohim were Canaanite words relating to Canaanite gods that Yahweh condemns. Notice the definitions of El and Elohim.
410. 'el, ale; short. from 352; strength; as adj. mighty; espec. the Almighty (but used also of any deity):—God, (god), x goodly, x great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Cop. names in “-el.”
430. 'elohiym, el-o-heem'; plur., of 433. gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:—angels, x exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), x (very) great, judges, x mighty.
The direct work of the elohist writer has been to place the names of the Gods of Canaan, into the Holy Scriptures. The Canaanites took the idols of strength and power, contained in the primitive roots yl and wl, and made Gods out of these concepts. Israylites have fallen for this deception and now worship Elohim instead of Yahweh, Who is truly the only source of power (Isayah 44:6,8).
Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, page 45, shows us more about the word EL.
, m.—(1) prop. part. of the verb No. 2, strong, mighty, a mighty one, a hero (comp. note). (2) might, strength) prop. that which is strong. Lamed in this phrase marks state or condition. The nature of this phrase has been but little understood by those who would here render by God…Notice the note by the author of this Lexicon which says:
Note. Following most etymologists, I have above derived from the root but to give my opinion more exactly, it appears rather to be a primitive word, the etymology being however adapted to the root ; so that to Hebrews this word would present the notion of strength and power.From man's own writings, we see this (el) from the root (ool) indicates strength, not God, as Satan has deceived this world into believing.
Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, page 20, also gives us this information on ayil () and auwl ():
or a root not used as a verb, but of wide extent in the derivatives. (2) to strength and power (comp. & ), whence strong, God; terebinth (as if “robust tree”); oak; also , strength, aid. The notion of strength and power is applied.According to Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon To The Old Testament, page 695, this word El originally came from the root words wl and yl. Man's own writings say these words mean strength, power, strong. These writings also say that the words El-God and elohim-god, were the work of a later and deceived writer.
Baal Gad
“The LORD” GodQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 20 2012,05:48) Frank………..You have presented it EXACTLY Right brother. Peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………gene
Gene,Yes, it is what Yahweh had planned before the world began. Sort of like “Planned Parenthood”.
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