Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

So they your answer to my question (which was to David, btw), is “YES”?

So the one who came to prepare the way for the Lord was filled with Holy Spirit from the womb, but not the Lord he came to pave the way for?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
This is a public forum.
If you wish to PM David then do so.

What does scripture say?

Should you make assumptions about Yashua because of what is SAID about John?

Is that sort of loose approach suitable for understanding God's wisdom?

[mikeboll64]

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

Why do you suppose John the Baptist, who WAS filled with Holy Spirit, would say these words to a regular old person who wasn't yet filled with Holy Spirit? Why would it be important for John to be baptized by a “nobody”, Nick?  

Seems that Jesus was more than you like to admit even BEFORE John baptised him, huh?

John 1
26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

The one whose sandals John was unworthy to untie was already among them – BEFORE John baptized him.  This “not worthy” phrase is mentioned in 3 of the gospels, and each time John said the phrase BEFORE Jesus was baptized.

It seems it is YOU who has a “loose approach”, Nick.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2012,21:12)

Hi MB, This is a public forum. If you wish to PM David then do so. What does scripture say? Should you make assumptions about Yashua because of what is SAID about John? Is that sort of loose approach suitable for understanding God's wisdom?

N

what else you are overlooking ?

you mean not all scriptures are important

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…………That statement was not said three times it was said once and quoted three times in each Gospel. You over exaggeration of those words changes nothing. Johns Baptism was one thing Jesus Baptism is quite another, Both are baptisms, John Know that and that is why he said those words. He understood Jesus was the Messiah or anointed ONE because GOD had told him . None of that has anything to do with Jesus Preexistence at all. Your still forcing the text to infer what in fact it is not inferring.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 14 2012,18:19)

He understood Jesus was the Messiah or anointed ONE because GOD had told him .

I agree, Gene. That's the point I was trying to make.

[NickHassan]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,09:43)

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Why do you suppose John the Baptist, who WAS filled with Holy Spirit, would say these words to a regular old person who wasn't yet filled with Holy Spirit?  Why would it be important for John to be baptized by a “nobody”, Nick?   Seems that Jesus was more than you like to admit even BEFORE John baptised him, huh? John 1 26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” The one whose sandals John was unworthy to untie was already among them – BEFORE John baptized him.  This “not worthy” phrase is mentioned in 3 of the gospels, and each time John said the phrase BEFORE Jesus was baptized. It seems it is YOU who has a “loose approach”, Nick.

Hi MB,
Certainly Jesus was an amazing vessel clean by obedience to the Law and ready to be made the Christ by anointing.

[mikeboll64]

Okay Nick.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2012,19:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,09:43) 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Why do you suppose John the Baptist, who WAS filled with Holy Spirit, would say these words to a regular old person who wasn't yet filled with Holy Spirit?  Why would it be important for John to be baptized by a “nobody”, Nick?   Seems that Jesus was more than you like to admit even BEFORE John baptised him, huh? John 1 26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” The one whose sandals John was unworthy to untie was already among them – BEFORE John baptized him.  This “not worthy” phrase is mentioned in 3 of the gospels, and each time John said the phrase BEFORE Jesus was baptized. It seems it is YOU who has a “loose approach”, Nick. Hi MB, Certainly Jesus was an amazing vessel clean by obedience to the Law and ready to be made the Christ by anointing.

N

are a boiler maker by trade

because you use a lot of vessels ,are we not beings ?or is Christ not a being

wen you meet people what do you say first “good morning VESSEL” ??

[mikeboll64]

Pierre,

There comes a point when it's just no use anymore. We've showed Nick from scripture where his understanding doesn't align – yet he still keeps saying the same tired things over and over, as if those scriptures we showed him amount to nothing.

I have come to know now that it doesn't matter what scriptures we show guys like Kerwin, Nick, Toby, Gene, Frank, and Ed.

They will still just keep claiming the same thing because they have made up their minds to believe what they WANT to believe – DESPITE what the scriptures actually say about it.

What more can we do? Like I told Kerwin, I'm tired of arguing against crazy.

peace to you my friend,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
2 Tim 2.20f

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Was Jesus with God and God in the beginning?

[david]

Hi Terrica, yes, it was fortold that Christ would appear and be cut off. But when did that prophecy point to? Did it point to his birth? Or did it point to when he was “anointed” hence officially becoming the anointed one (Christ)?

Dan 9:24-27 pinpoints when “messiah” would appear (and also be cut off, in death)

Luke 3:15: The Jews were in “expectation” of the Christ, right around the time Jesus was baptized. (Luke 3:21,22)

How did the Jews know that the Christ was to appear around that time? They read Dan 9.

Why were they in expectation around the time of Jesus baptism and not at his birth? Because Dan 9 pointed to that time when the Christ would appear, not to the time of Jesus' birth.

Jesus became the “anointed one” (Christ) when he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism. (See Luke 3:21,22)

This is why, for me, it seems that he became anointed at that time and not his birth. This seems how the Jews understood it and they were right to be in “expectation” of the Christ at that time, because later in that chapter, we see Jesus is being anointed with holy spirit.

“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Mat 3:16)

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19)

God anointed his son with his holy spirit. Matthew, mark, Luke say that the holy spirit or God's spirit came down upon Jesus. Jesus was baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming the Christ (anointed one.)

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2012,09:47)

Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2012,01:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2012,10:16) Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2012,00:31) Thoughts? Luke 2 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. The angel didn't say, “He WILL BE Christ the Lord”. Luke 2 25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: 29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,   you now dismiss your servant in peace. 30 For my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people, 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles   and for glory to your people Israel.” How could God have kept His promise to Simeon 30 years prior to Jesus BECOMING the Christ?  God promised he would see His Christ, and Simeon thanked God for keeping that promise – when Jesus was but 8 days old. 1 Samuel 10 1 Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the LORD anointed you leader over his inheritance? 10 When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying. It seems that God anointed Saul with Holy Spirit AFTER he was already God's anointed one. These are my thoughts, David.  What say you? Hi mike I knew there were a couple of such scriptures that existed.   It does seem there is evidence on both sides [b]Christ represents both a title “anointed one” and an identity (person): Jesus. [\b] It seems we are focusing on when the anointed one appeared.  And you are focusing on when the Christ (the person) arrived. If it was foretold that a king (named George) would come, and now George is sitting in front of you, but he hasn't yet been crowned, you are still likely to think of him as king.  I mean, even if it's not official yet, you make George angry and it's just a matter of time before it's “off with your head.” Or, think of a president before he is officially the president.  People still see him as president, despite it being official. It seems to me that messiah appeared when he was anointed with spirit, and that Dan 9 points to Jesus anointing and not his birth. Hi David, I see your point, but think it is weak.  We have words to describe a soon to be king (prince), and a soon to be President (President-Elect). I'll stick with what the scriptures clearly say, although I do see your point.

I have to wonder what you think of Dan 9.

Do you think it pointed to his birth and death?

What do you think it pointed to?

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,09:43)

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Why do you suppose John the Baptist, who WAS filled with Holy Spirit, would say these words to a regular old person who wasn't yet filled with Holy Spirit?  Why would it be important for John to be baptized by a “nobody”, Nick?   Seems that Jesus was more than you like to admit even BEFORE John baptised him, huh? John 1 26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” The one whose sandals John was unworthy to untie was already among them – BEFORE John baptized him.  This “not worthy” phrase is mentioned in 3 of the gospels, and each time John said the phrase BEFORE Jesus was baptized. It seems it is YOU who has a “loose approach”, Nick.

As you quoted:

“He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

John and Jesus were born very close to each other in time.  Why does John say that Jesus is the one who “comes after” John?

Sure, Jesus lived before he was anointed, but it wasn't his time yet.  He wasn't really recognized as the anointed one until he became anointed.

[david]

John said:

“I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him. Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one that baptizes in holy spirit.’ And I have seen it, and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (John 1:32-34)

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2012,16:31)

Hi Terrica, yes, it was fortold that Christ would appear and be cut off.  But when did that prophecy point to?  Did it point to his birth?  Or did it point to when he was “anointed” hence officially becoming the anointed one (Christ)? Dan 9:24-27 pinpoints when “messiah” would appear (and also be cut off, in death) Luke 3:15:  The Jews were in “expectation” of the Christ, right around the time Jesus was baptized. (Luke 3:21,22) How did the Jews know that the Christ was to appear around that time?  They read Dan 9.   Why were they in expectation around the time of Jesus baptism and not at his birth?  Because Dan 9 pointed to that time when the Christ would appear, not to the time of Jesus' birth. Jesus became the “anointed one” (Christ) when he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism.  (See Luke 3:21,22) This is why, for me, it seems that he became anointed at that time and not his birth.  This seems how the Jews understood it and they were right to be in “expectation” of the Christ at that time, because later in that chapter, we see Jesus is being anointed with holy spirit. “After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Mat 3:16) “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19) God anointed his son with his holy spirit.  Matthew, mark, Luke say that the holy spirit or God's spirit came down upon Jesus.  Jesus was baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming the Christ (anointed one.)

Hi David, excellent post.

Jesus said: “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15), what time was that?
…it was the fulfillment of the 69th week of Daniels prophecy.

THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL 9:24-27 EXPLAINED.

These people call themselves “the church of Christ”,
they are well informed, as are the JW's. (see David, a plug!)

The time line, regarding this, starts at 15:25 through to 52:30.
Please listen all the way to the end count I have given you; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

DAN 9 discusses when “messiah the leader” would appear. And also when he would be “cut off.”

“After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. . . . And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.” (Daniel 9:26a, 27a)

“at the half of the week,” that is, the middle of the last week of years.

Jesus ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years. “at the half of the week” Jesus was “cut off” in death.

SO, WORKING BACKWARDS, its we can understand that “messiah the leader” appeared right around the time he was baptized.

Just for fun, looking further, how could the Messiah “must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week”? He kept the Abrahamic covenant in force. Until the 70th week ended, God extended the blessings of that covenant to Abraham’s Hebrew offspring. But at the end of the “seventy weeks” of years, in 36 C.E., the apostle Peter preached to the devout Italian man Cornelius, his household, and other Gentiles. And from that day on, the good news began to be declared among people of the nations.—Acts 3:25, 26; 10:1-48; Galatians 3:8, 9, 14.

Anyway, Mike, wondering what you think about this prophecy that tells us when “MESSIAH THE LEADER” WAS TO APPEAR?

[NickHassan]

Hi David,
The law was in force till the time of John.[Lk16.16]
Where is 36 AD evidence shown?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2012,16:31)

Hi Terrica, yes, it was fortold that Christ would appear and be cut off.  But when did that prophecy point to?  Did it point to his birth?  Or did it point to when he was “anointed” hence officially becoming the anointed one (Christ)? Dan 9:24-27 pinpoints when “messiah” would appear (and also be cut off, in death) Luke 3:15:  The Jews were in “expectation” of the Christ, right around the time Jesus was baptized. (Luke 3:21,22) How did the Jews know that the Christ was to appear around that time?  They read Dan 9.   Why were they in expectation around the time of Jesus baptism and not at his birth?  Because Dan 9 pointed to that time when the Christ would appear, not to the time of Jesus' birth. Jesus became the “anointed one” (Christ) when he was anointed with holy spirit at his baptism.  (See Luke 3:21,22) This is why, for me, it seems that he became anointed at that time and not his birth.  This seems how the Jews understood it and they were right to be in “expectation” of the Christ at that time, because later in that chapter, we see Jesus is being anointed with holy spirit. “After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Mat 3:16) “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor….” (luke 4:19) God anointed his son with his holy spirit.  Matthew, mark, Luke say that the holy spirit or God's spirit came down upon Jesus.  Jesus was baptized with holy spirit, thus becoming the Christ (anointed one.)

David………….Well and soundly put brother. Jesus indeed recieved his (CHRISTOS) of Anointing at the time of his Baptism in the Jordan River. I as well as Nick and others believe that also.

peace and love………………………………………gene

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