- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,19:29) Mike, Yes, I agree with you on this point that there are two separate wills that Yahshua was speaking of here, his own will and that of his and our Father Yahweh.
There is no other logical way to understand it, Frank. Nick is grasping at nonsense to make his doctrine appear to hold water, IMO.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,11:49) Hi t8,
The WORD did not speak for God but spoke as the servant Son.
WE will come to you[Jn14]
You make it sound like the Word is a person that is not Jesus and doesn't always speak for God.We will come to you is different to “Not my will but your will”.
And I myself can say WE are discussing something in this thread. What does that prove though?I am not really following what you are saying Nick. It is confusing.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,19:35) Mike, What do you propose the proper translation of the verse to be if you are not in agreement with the translation Nick has posted?
Frank,There are three legitimate possibilities for the translation of John 1:1c……………..
1. Colwell's Rule allows for the addition of the definite article in certain cases, allowing for “the word was THE god” – which we would translate in English as “the word was God”.
2. The Hebrew and Greek languages did not use the indefinite article, but our language does. Any of the over 7000 times you read the word “a” in scripture, it has been added by an English translator so the sentence makes sense to us in English. So “the word was a god” is likewise grammatically correct.
(Note that the Coptic language was the first indefinite article using language into which the scriptures were translated. And in the Coptic Bible, 1:1c reads, “and the Word was a god”.)
3. The third possibility is a qualitative “god”. I'm sure you know that the Hebrew word “adam” means “man”, or “mankind”, right? If 1:1c was qualitative, it would be like saying, “In the beginning, Cain was with THE Adam, and Cain was adam” – meaning he was with THE one known properly as Adam, and he too was a member of mankind. The thing with the qualitative stance is that “a god” would work equally well, if not better. For instance, in my example above, we are more likely to say “and Cain was a man” than we are to say “and Cain was man” – although they both deliver the same meaning.
Because obviously, if you are man (of mankind), then you are equally “a man”.
Frank, many translations offer “and the Word was divine”, or “the Word was godlike”, or something to effect of those two. But these translations are not possible because the word “theos” in 1:1c is not written in the adjectival form.
So basically, it all boils down to one of two translations. Either the word was THE God he was WITH – which doesn't make any sense to me; or the word was A god who was WITH THE God in the beginning.
The only sensible translation is “the Word was with THE God, and the Word was a god”.
(Keep in mind the word “theos” didn't refer only to God Almighty, but to many different “mighty ones” – as you yourself have pointed out in a previous post.)
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 06 2012,00:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2012,14:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,18:27) This concept occurred to me and I submit it to see if it finds favour among the spiritual.
Wouldn't it have been better for you to check if there were scriptures to support the concept before submitting it?Wouldn't it have been better for you to make sure it didn't blatantly contradict many scriptures?
I think it is good to submit ideas to see what others think. To the right people this is a good thing.Submitting ideas or concepts that have no scriptural backing yet, and teaching it as truth is another thing of course.
Of course you are right, t8. I should have worded that better.My point was if scriptures have showed your concept to be in error, it's time to let it go.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 06 2012,02:30) Hi Mike, The Bible doesn't say 'God was with God'?
The Bible says “The Word” was with God.
That's too funny, Ed!
Isn't it you who tries to tell us all that the Word IS the Holy Spirit which IS God Himself?
According to YOUR understanding, it would most definitely be saying that God was WITH God.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 06 2012,13:01) Mike, “Heaven Net” only knows where you got the idea that the translation that Nick submitted says “God was with God”!
Frank, pay attention. Nick believes the Word was the spirit of Christ, which is of God and also God.So it is his reasoning that makes God be with God, not mine. I was merely pointing out that God cannot be WITH God.
In fact Frank, anyone who believes in a literal translation of “and the Word was THE God” apparently believes that God can be WITH God.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2012,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,11:49) Hi t8,
The WORD did not speak for God but spoke as the servant Son.
WE will come to you[Jn14]
You make it sound like the Word is a person that is not Jesus and doesn't always speak for God.We will come to you is different to “Not my will but your will”.
And I myself can say WE are discussing something in this thread. What does that prove though?I am not really following what you are saying Nick. It is confusing.
T8………What Nick is saying is the word was GOD (IN) Jesus speaking directly through HIM. That is Just what Paladin and I have been saying all along. The LOGOS was (IN) Jesus , but that does not Make Jesus the LOGOS himself .GOD who at different time spoke to us “Thought” the Prophets has spoken to us “THROUGH” a Son. It still was GOD Speaking via his SPIRIT.
Thomas clearly said my Lord “AND” my GOD That was who was present there. It was the Lord Jesus Christ “AND” GOD . What is stopping you people from understanding that?
T8 it sounds confusing because your don't seem to understand the concept that GOD can and Does (INDWELL) His creation by his Spirit, he is omni-PRESENT. can be inside of you or outside of you at any time he wants to.
Remember where it say “It is GOD who Works (IN) us both to WILL and do of His good Pleasure.” That is a true statement T8.
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2012,08:56) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 05 2012,19:29) Mike, Yes, I agree with you on this point that there are two separate wills that Yahshua was speaking of here, his own will and that of his and our Father Yahweh.
There is no other logical way to understand it, Frank. Nick is grasping at nonsense to make his doctrine appear to hold water, IMO.
Mike,I was thinking maybe Nick was reasoning that since he came to the knowledge that Yahshua was the spokesman of Yahweh's word that he then erroneously concluded that EVERY WORD that Yahshua spoke was in actuality Father Yahweh speaking through him, and that he had no words that he spoke concerning himself directly. Yahshua would have been nothing more than a programmed robot without it's own will if this were true. I believe Nick was trapped in his error by someone and in turn continues to try and defend his error not wanting to appear that he himself is not directly inspired by the “God” that he worships. Many are like this in not wanting to admit that they are wrong after going through so many doctrinal changes in their lifetime. It is like they came to a conclusion at some point in their lifetime that they are finally being directly inspired by their “God” and will say anything to defend the “God” that they believe that they are finally directly inspired by. I have heard many proclaim that they have finally come to the knowledge of the truth after someone has shown them the error in what they had previously believed. I'm not saying that I am right about how I feel about Nick defending such an illogical error, but it certainly seems that way to me. I myself hold to changing my stance on certain things that I believe in light of Father Yahweh's word as it is revealed to me for the rest of my life, because I believe that in the future Kingdom of Yahweh that we will be directly guided into what is truth and what is not by Father Yahweh Himself. At this point in time, I simply believe what it is that I believe until I change what it is that I believe when Father Yahweh directly communicates to me what it is that I should believe. Father Yahweh has never directly communicated to me and until then I can only believe what it is that I believe and change what it is that I believe from my studying the diverse translations of what is supposedly to be His inspired word.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,09:39) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2012,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,11:49) Hi t8,
The WORD did not speak for God but spoke as the servant Son.
WE will come to you[Jn14]
You make it sound like the Word is a person that is not Jesus and doesn't always speak for God.We will come to you is different to “Not my will but your will”.
And I myself can say WE are discussing something in this thread. What does that prove though?I am not really following what you are saying Nick. It is confusing.
T8………What Nick is saying is the word was GOD (IN) Jesus speaking directly through HIM. That is Just what Paladin and I have been saying all along. The LOGOS was (IN) Jesus , but that does not Make Jesus the LOGOS himself .GOD who at different time spoke to us “Thought” the Prophets has spoken to us “THROUGH” a Son. It still was GOD Speaking via his SPIRIT.
Thomas clearly said my Lord “AND” my GOD That was who was present there. It was the Lord Jesus Christ “AND” GOD . What is stopping you people from understanding that?
T8 it sounds confusing because your don't seem to understand the concept that GOD can and Does (INDWELL) His creation by his Spirit, he is omni-PRESENT. can be inside of you or outside of you at any time he wants to.
Remember where it say “It is GOD who Works (IN) us both to WILL and do of His good Pleasure.” That is a true statement T8.
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Gene,I also hold to the belief that when Thomas is said to say in translation “My Lord and my God!” that he was speaking of two district beings with one being Yahshua as his Master (“Lord”) and the other being Father Yahweh as his Almighty One (“God”). I believe that he was saying this in exclamation as many translators translate what he said with the particular punctuation “!”. I believe Thomas reacted in this manner to his finally seeing the evidence of Yahshua being resurrected from the dead that he previously said wanted to see Yahshua's wounds and then he would believe. I had thought that this was not what was being reference to though. I had thought that it was initially being directed to Yahshua's “I am” statement. I had thought that Nick had concluded that Father Yahweh was directly speaking through Yahshua saying that He was “I AM” as in giving reference to Himself as the “The Great I Am” or “I Am That I Am”. I myself believe that Yahshua was simply saying “I am” in reference to himself just as anyone else would say “I am” in reference to themselves. Please correct me if I am wrong concerning this.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 07 2012,10:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,09:39) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2012,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,11:49) Hi t8,
The WORD did not speak for God but spoke as the servant Son.
WE will come to you[Jn14]
You make it sound like the Word is a person that is not Jesus and doesn't always speak for God.We will come to you is different to “Not my will but your will”.
And I myself can say WE are discussing something in this thread. What does that prove though?I am not really following what you are saying Nick. It is confusing.
T8………What Nick is saying is the word was GOD (IN) Jesus speaking directly through HIM. That is Just what Paladin and I have been saying all along. The LOGOS was (IN) Jesus , but that does not Make Jesus the LOGOS himself .GOD who at different time spoke to us “Thought” the Prophets has spoken to us “THROUGH” a Son. It still was GOD Speaking via his SPIRIT.
Thomas clearly said my Lord “AND” my GOD That was who was present there. It was the Lord Jesus Christ “AND” GOD . What is stopping you people from understanding that?
T8 it sounds confusing because your don't seem to understand the concept that GOD can and Does (INDWELL) His creation by his Spirit, he is omni-PRESENT. can be inside of you or outside of you at any time he wants to.
Remember where it say “It is GOD who Works (IN) us both to WILL and do of His good Pleasure.” That is a true statement T8.
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Gene,I also hold to the belief that when Thomas is said to say in translation “My Lord and my God!” that he was speaking of two district beings with one being Yahshua as his Master (“Lord”) and the other being Father Yahweh as his Almighty One (“God”). I believe that he was saying this in exclamation as many translators translate what he said with the particular punctuation “!”. I believe Thomas reacted in this manner to his finally seeing the evidence of Yahshua being resurrected from the dead that he previously said wanted to see Yahshua's wounds and then he would believe. I had thought that this was not what was being reference to though. I had thought that it was initially being directed to Yahshua's “I am” statement. I had thought that Nick had concluded that Father Yahweh was directly speaking through Yahshua saying that He was “I AM” as in giving reference to Himself as the “The Great I Am” or “I Am That I Am”. I myself believe that Yahshua was simply saying “I am” in reference to himself just as anyone else would say “I am” in reference to themselves. Please correct me if I am wrong concerning this.
CORRECTION:“… he previously said *he wanted to see Yahshua's wounds …”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2012,09:37) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 06 2012,13:01) Mike, “Heaven Net” only knows where you got the idea that the translation that Nick submitted says “God was with God”!
Frank, pay attention. Nick believes the Word was the spirit of Christ, which is of God and also God.So it is his reasoning that makes God be with God, not mine. I was merely pointing out that God cannot be WITH God.
In fact Frank, anyone who believes in a literal translation of “and the Word was THE God” apparently believes that God can be WITH God.
Mike,I also believe as Nick that the word of Father Yahweh is the spirit of Messiah, which is of Yahweh and also Yahweh.
No, I believe it is your reasoning that makes “God be with God”, since Nick has never said “God is with God.” to my knowledge. I believe it is your erroneous interpretation of what Nick actually said in his posting the translation that he posted. Still you have not given me how you believe this verse should be translated as opposed to the translation Nick has submitted. his is what I had initially asked you for.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 06 2012,17:41) Mike, I also believe as Nick that the word of Father Yahweh is the spirit of Messiah, which is of Yahweh and also Yahweh.
Examine your own words above, Frank. Let me repost it with some of them struck through:I also believe as Nick that the word of Father Yahweh is
the spirit of Messiah, which is of Yahweh and alsoYahweh.If you believe the Word IS Yahweh, then in your understanding, John 1:1 speaks of Yahweh being WITH Yahweh. There is no way around it.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 06 2012,17:41) Still you have not given me how you believe this verse should be translated as opposed to the translation Nick has submitted. his is what I had initially asked you for.
2nd post on the previous page.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2012,09:32) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 06 2012,02:30) Hi Mike, The Bible doesn't say 'God was with God'?
The Bible says “The Word” was with God.
That's too funny, Ed!Isn't it you who tries to tell us all that the Word IS the Holy Spirit which IS God Himself?
According to YOUR understanding, it would most definitely be saying that God was WITH God.
Mike,Then let me ask Ed J what it is that he believes …
Ed J,
Do you believe “The Bible … say[s] 'God was with God'? or do you believe 'The Bible says “The Word” was with God.' or do you believe both?
Like I said Frank, you guys can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are of the understanding that the Word was LITERALLY THE GOD, then there is no choice but for John 1:1 to be saying that God was WITH God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2012,10:55) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 06 2012,17:41) Mike, I also believe as Nick that the word of Father Yahweh is the spirit of Messiah, which is of Yahweh and also Yahweh.
Examine your own words above, Frank. Let me repost it with some of them struck through:I also believe as Nick that the word of Father Yahweh is
the spirit of Messiah, which is of Yahweh and alsoYahweh.If you believe the Word IS Yahweh, then in your understanding, John 1:1 speaks of Yahweh being WITH Yahweh. There is no way around it.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Mar. 06 2012,17:41) Still you have not given me how you believe this verse should be translated as opposed to the translation Nick has submitted. his is what I had initially asked you for.
2nd post on the previous page.
Mike,No, my understanding is not that Yahchanan [John] 1:1 speaks of Yahweh being WITH Yahweh. I have never said 'Yahchanan 1:1 speaks of Yahweh being WITH Yahweh.' If you believe that I have actually said this, please feel free to copy and paste such a foolish quote as this that you believe that I have said in your next response to me.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2012,11:04) Like I said Frank, you guys can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are of the understanding that the Word was LITERALLY THE GOD, then there is no choice but for John 1:1 to be saying that God was WITH God.
Mike,I am not of the understanding 'that the Word was LITERALLY THE GOD”.' I have never said such foolishness as this! In fact, I have never personally addressed our Heavenly Father and Creator Yahweh as a mere “God”.
I am also not aware of ANY translation of Yahchanan 1:1 that is worded “God was WITH God.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2012,11:04) Like I said Frank, you guys can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are of the understanding that the Word was LITERALLY THE GOD, then there is no choice but for John 1:1 to be saying that God was WITH God.
Mike,BTW, when I have a cake that belongs to me, I am most certainly going to have it and eat it too! I love cake, and especially with icing!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,02:31) To All….> You can not separate GOD from His words no more then you can be separated from you Words, God who is Spirit was (IN) Jesus , if you can come to Just see that it will correct much of your confusions. WE are all to be Judged by our words and God is judged and Justified by His words. If you just understood what a WORD (IS) that along should explain things to you , a WORD (IS) intelligent utterance That is all a word is and it is produced by the SPIRIT working (IN) a Person, rather God or Man. God who (IS) SPIRIT was (IN) Jesus. Why is this so simple truth so hard for anyone to understand is amazing to me. peace and love to you all ……………………………………………….Gene
Hi Gene,They can't understand because of what
the systems of religion has taught them. (Col.2:22)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2012,02:45) Terricca…………….Just read the scriptures start with Genesis and see what GOD SPOKE it is just that simple are you so confused by false religions you can't even figure that out? Jesus even said they were not “HIS” words. I just cant believe how confused you people are here. peace and love…………………………………………………gene
Hi Gene,They have to ignore much Scripture to hold onto the traditions of men.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
