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Steve Good Job, and I belief the same thing and have given other scriptures, that to me cannot be taken any other way. He either created all things or He did not. It says that He did. He came forth from the Father or He did not, He did. You cant have it both ways. He either came from Heaven or He did not. It said that He did.
Rev. 3:14 ” These says the Amen; the Faithful and true Witness, The beginning of the creation of God.”
It says that God created Him. He either did or He did not. It says that He did. Why did God created Him from Himself. I believe in order to save Mankind. God is all knowing and He knew that man was going to Sin and he needed a Savior. It says that God so loved the World that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON who soever believed in Him will have eternal life. Through Faith in Christ Jesus it is a gift from God. That I believe was all in His plan. That is my understanding. God does not do anything without a reason, I believe.
Mandy I studied this too for some years now. At first I said, ” You got to be kidding me?” God would not leave me in that belief and now I really belief it is the truth.
Steve explained it really good. Thank you again Steven.Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Not3in1…..Mandy have you heard any thing out about your condition, I have prayed an as our Father for Help.
peace to you and yours…..geneMandy;
If I said to you that I came from New York where I lived with my father James, wouldn't I also be making the statement that I am the son of James in New York? We normally don't point out something so obvious in life because we would be viewed as not playing with a full deck. If I added to the above statement that I am the Son of James in New York, you might respond, yes, I heard you the first time, I made that deduction when you said you lived with your father James in New York.
So why when we read the scriptures where Jesus says he came down from heaven and was sent from his father, which is in heaven, we suddenly think he doesn't mean that he was the son of God in heaven actually, does he? Why question a truth that is so fundamental to our understanding?
But remember this wasn't all Jesus said. He said he would return to where he was before. If I said in the above example that I was returning to New York where I was before, but I wasn't actually in New York at any time, what would you call me? So if Christ wasn't in heaven prior as the Son of God, do you realize what we are saying about Jesus? Don't make that mistake.
By the way, I'm still lowering you down through the roof every night in my prayers. It's going to be alright.
Take care
Steven
To all;
Jesus said he was returning to where he was before. If we knew where he went then we would know where he was before. In the book of Acts Stephen look up and saw him at the right hand of the throne of God. So he was there prior. If he were only in the foreknowledge of God, would he be seen by Stephen? If he was the Word as many suggest, would he be seen?
The title Word of God was ascribed to a person in Revelation 19:13 which says “his” name is called the Word of God, not that he is the Word of God. The Word of God is the power of God. God does not change. The Word will always be God. Indeed, the Word is God as the seed is part of the apple yet distinct. We have been begotten by the Word so the Word is the procreative power of God, just as all of creation has its seed within itself.
Steven
Hi everybody
Why look for 5 legs in the cat when it only has 4? Go back to the basics. It is well documented that JESUS WAS before! WHY attempt to OVERANALIZE a simple plain fact? LOVE to all Elaine:)Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”I personally don't consider 2000 years ago to be ancient times.
t8,elaine 1809 and Steve all are good points and I agree on them. There are some real good scriptures that go with the understanding that Jesus Preexisted. I hope some will learn from them.
Col. 1:15-18 Rev. 3:14 Gen. 1:26 Prov. 8:22-30
Love to allPeace and Love Mrs.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2007,22:00) Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”I personally don't consider 2000 years ago to be ancient times.
The word used for origins here is “motsaah” which according to Strong's isFeminine of H4161; a family descent; also a sewer (compare H6675): – draught house; going forth.
Now we know that it does not mean “sewer” or “draught house” here, so what does the first part say? “Family descent”. I think that says it all? If your daddy is God, you “family descent” IS from ancient times, eh?
Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
I agree “the Word was God”… and became flesh and dwelt among us.So either Jesus was Michael the Archangel or was “part” of God being the WORD.
Jesus was a son of man filled with the Spirit (WORD?) of God.
Even we are brothers of the Christ having the Spirit of God.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Whom The Father forknew, the Father predestinate Jesus to be conformed to the IMAGE OF HIS SON.
Is this scripture saying that the Son existed as Spirit and that Jesus was the Son's IMAGE?
Conformed:
G4832
συμμορφός
summorphos
soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar: – conformed to, fashioned like unto.HMMMMMMMMMMMM?
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 04 2007,09:14) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
I agree “the Word was God”… and became flesh and dwelt among us.So either Jesus was Michael the Archangel or was “part” of God being the WORD.
Jesus was a son of man filled with the Spirit (WORD?) of God.
Even we are brothers of the Christ having the Spirit of God.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Whom The Father forknew, the Father predestinate Jesus to be conformed to the IMAGE OF HIS SON.
Is this scripture saying that the Son existed as Spirit and that Jesus was the Son's IMAGE?
Conformed:
G4832
συμμορφός
summorphos
soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar: – conformed to, fashioned like unto.HMMMMMMMMMMMM?
Ken,I don't know what you're trying to get at. Please explain a little more indepth.
As I said though, there are really only 2 choices if you think Yeshua pre-existed as an entity separate from God Himself IF you don't believe in the trinity. That is why WJ says that belief in the trinity is the only way to reconcile the whole of scripture. Thus, if you believe that Yeshua was indeed the Son of God before he came to earth, he must be an angel or God. By calling him “God” I am not saying he is his Father, but it would be like saying my son is human as I am human. You take awy all of your arguments that he is a man because you say he was either God or an angel before he came to live in the flesh tent.
So which is it — is Yeshua God or and angel?
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 03 2007,17:34) To all; Jesus said he was returning to where he was before. If we knew where he went then we would know where he was before. In the book of Acts Stephen look up and saw him at the right hand of the throne of God. So he was there prior. If he were only in the foreknowledge of God, would he be seen by Stephen? If he was the Word as many suggest, would he be seen?
The title Word of God was ascribed to a person in Revelation 19:13 which says “his” name is called the Word of God, not that he is the Word of God. The Word of God is the power of God. God does not change. The Word will always be God. Indeed, the Word is God as the seed is part of the apple yet distinct. We have been begotten by the Word so the Word is the procreative power of God, just as all of creation has its seed within itself.
Steven
Steven saw the Yeshua who is, it had nothing to do with “foreknowledge”. Did Yeshua ever say that he was at the right hand of his Father before he walked the earth?Steven, what form do you think Yeshua was in before he came to earth? You say he was the Son before his earthly conception, so he was either a son figuratively (an angel) or literally (God). If you view it as literal, then you must either accept the trinity or become henotheistic.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 05 2007,03:15) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 04 2007,09:14) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
I agree “the Word was God”… and became flesh and dwelt among us.So either Jesus was Michael the Archangel or was “part” of God being the WORD.
Jesus was a son of man filled with the Spirit (WORD?) of God.
Even we are brothers of the Christ having the Spirit of God.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Whom The Father forknew, the Father predestinate Jesus to be conformed to the IMAGE OF HIS SON.
Is this scripture saying that the Son existed as Spirit and that Jesus was the Son's IMAGE?
Conformed:
G4832
συμμορφός
summorphos
soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar: – conformed to, fashioned like unto.HMMMMMMMMMMMM?
Ken,I don't know what you're trying to get at. Please explain a little more indepth.
As I said though, there are really only 2 choices if you think Yeshua pre-existed as an entity separate from God Himself IF you don't believe in the trinity. That is why WJ says that belief in the trinity is the only way to reconcile the whole of scripture. Thus, if you believe that Yeshua was indeed the Son of God before he came to earth, he must be an angel or God. By calling him “God” I am not saying he is his Father, but it would be like saying my son is human as I am human. You take awy all of your arguments that he is a man because you say he was either God or an angel before he came to live in the flesh tent.
So which is it — is Yeshua God or and angel?
I know kejonn I'm sorry. I started to say one thing but then Rom. 8:29 caught my eye.Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
He (Jesus) whom the Father foreknew. HE also predestinate Jesus to be conformed…to the IMAGE of HIS Son.
Sounds like the Son was already there and Jesus the son of man was made the Son's Image OR His tent just as you and I are the tent (temple) of the Holy Spirit.
All this is interesting but the fact is that the Son of God died for my sins. No matter if He preexisted or not. I know the son of man did not preexist but what I read in Romans is that the son of man~Jesus~ was made the “image” of the Son.
Again is Romans saying that the Son was already there but as God, a Spirit being and Jesus~the son of man~ became the Son's Image.
What do you think?
to all…..> to me the only way the preexistance of Jesus can be explained and meet all of what scriptures say about Him is by saying He preexisted only in the fore knowledge and plan of God. If you apply that thought to what you read it fits .
1….>Jesus said he was returning to where he was before, His whole being came forth from God Himself, just like we do, we derived our origines from God Himself, so we could say the same thing.
2…..Jesus said before Abraham I was, He meant He was established by God before Abraham came into being as shown in scriptures . And Abraham forsaw His day and was glad.
3…. No where in scripture is there any preactivity shown of Jesus. Except where trinitarians try to say that Christ was the rock that followed the childern of Israel in the wilderness, not realizing the the word Christ meant the (Annointing) or Holy Spirit and that's what was following them inthe wilderness.
4…> the Glory he had with the father before the world was was that glory afforded him By God before He ever came into existence, Just like the glory afforded cyrus was 200 years befor he was born, and Jeremiah the prophet had before he was born.
6…. we must all understand all things were preplanned and brought about by ONE GOD, including Jesus comming into existence at his berth. All planned and brought about by God Himself at the right time they came forth…….Peace gene
5….> i maintain the Peter gives the answer to the question of how to look at the preexistence of Jesus, He plainly said that Jesus was forordained befor the foundations of the world, (BUT) was Manifested (came into existence)in our time.
Jesus was showing He had preeminince given him By the Father before he ever was born or came into actual being. He was always a work of God,even before he was born.Kejonn:
Every time Christ said he was sent from his Father in heaven he made the implicit declaration he was the Son of God in heaven prior. Otherwise, we all pre-existed if it was only in foreknowledge only.
What is your definition of henotheistic?
Steven
Kejonn;
According to the book of Job there were sons of God in heaven, too. They came and presented themselves to the Lord in the presence of the Lord. Evidently, Satan was also among them. This is a very blurry area in scripture so we only speculate at best. There is the case in Genesis where Cain and Abel presented themselves to the Lord. It appears almost as if after a task was complete the order of the scripture is to present yourself before the Lord. This may be why when Jesus saw Mary Magnalene after he rose from the dead he told her not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father to present himself.
Even without the sons of God in Job it seems presumptuous to believe that there are only Angels and God in heaven. Particularly, since God and his Word are perpetual.
Steven
Mr. steve….how do you read where it say's whom he foreknow He predestined to be made into the image of his son. Did he not fore know us and did He not predestin us to be made into the image of His son, ” No you not brethern Now we are Sons of God”. And when he comes we will see him as he is (in other words we will be Just like Him)
This idea of Preexistence of Jesus as a being pryer to his berth only lessons the Father's glory in creating and bringing
forth things at the proper time for them to Happen. This idology of preexistent activity of Jesus only Lessons what God the Father was doing, by transfering preexistince glory to him as a being instead of a foreplan of the Father, brought into existence at the proper time, and it enhances the trinitarian idology of him being GOD himself. Satan desire is to steal Glory and Honor that belongs to GOD the Father alone, so having Jesus apear as a preexistint Glorified being causes us to focus more on Jesus then the FAther….just the way i see it…….geneTo all we need to remember Jesus was and is a (CREATIVE) work of GOD> Not a work of Jesus. All the GLory of Jesus goes to The Father, and this (CREATIVE) work He is doings in us is His (WORK) not our works. There is no difference It's all GOD”S WORK and His WORK ALONE……Just the way i see it, peace gene.
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