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To all
There are other scriptures that proves to me that Jesus existed before the world was.
Col 1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation.”
Col 1 :16 ” For by Him were all thing created, that are in heaven and that are in the earth.
Rev. 3:14 ” These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.The James Moffatt explains it this way in Proverb
PROVERB 8:22 ' THE ETERNAL FORMED ME FIRST OF HIS CREATION, FIRST IN ALL HIS WORKS OF OLD.
VERSE 23 ” I WAS FASHIONED IN THE EARLIEST AGES, FROM THE VERY FIRST, WHEN EARTH BEGAN.
VERSE 24 ” I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WAS NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS FULL OF
WATER;”
VERSE 25 ” ERE HE SUNK THE BASES OF THE MOUNTAINS,ERE THE HILLS EXISTED, I WAS BORN.
VERSE 26 ” WHEN EARTH AND FIELDS WERE NOT CREATED, NOR THE VERY FIRST CLODS OF THE
WORLD,”
VERSE 27 ” WHEN HE SET THE HEAVEN UP, I WAS THERE, WHEN HE DREW THE VAULT O'RE THE ABYSS.”
VERSE 28 ” WHEN HE MADE THE CLOUDS FIRM OVERHEAD, WHEN HE FIXED THE FOUNTAIN S OF THE
DEEP..”
VERSE 29 ” WHEN HE SET THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SEA, WHEN HE LAID FOUNDATIONS FOR THE
EARTH.”
VERSE 30 ” I WAS WITH HIM THEN, HIS FOSTER CHILD, I WAS HIS DELIGHT DAY AFTER DAY, PLAYING
IN HIS PRESENCE CONSTANTLY.”In GENESIS 1:26 ” LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS……”
IN COL. 1:18 ” AND HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY THE CHURCH, WHO IS THE FIRST BORN FROM THE
DEAD; THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE PREEMINENCE.”
Preeminence means first in all. For me that wrapped it up pretty good, unless somebody can prove me wrong. For me He preexisted before the world began.Peace and Love Mrs.
IM4truth;
Those are excellent scriptures, too. The apostles certainly confirmed the pre-existence of Christ. I've been trying to point certain ones to the gospels where Christ expressly states the he (the Son of God) was with the father in heaven before and would return from whence he came. I believe what Jesus said himself is primary authority when interpreting scripture against scripture to resolve any ambiguities. If what Christ taught is omitted the resulting doctrines are apparent to us. God Bless
Take Care
Steven
to all……> the question to me is Did Jesus preexist as a real being or person or was his prexistence in the plan of God and therefore He was a forordained person and did not come into existence until His time. Much like cyrus was preordained , 200 years before he was born, also God forknow others and brought them into existence at the proper time. It even say's He forknew us also. So again the question is does The fore knowledge of God also equal preexistence. I believe it does not equal the same. There are no words in the bible where it spicificaly say Jesus preexisted. Of course trintiarians need this concept in there theology. But Peter did not say that Jesus preexisted in any form or being. He said Jesus was foreordained before the foundations of the world, then say's (BUT) was manifested in our time. This tells me God had Jesus in His (Known) and Prophecied Plans. And there are other reasons I believe Jesus did not come into actual existence until he was born. The scriptures shows no preexistence activity of Him. Another reason He is call the Second man Adam by The apostle Paul. Our exact Identy with Jesus I believe is crucial for us to truly see Him as one of Us, A Man nothing More and nothing less. It connects us directly with Him. I Believe God took and ordinary Human Just like Us and Caused Him to walk perfectly by being in Him. I do not believe Jesus had any advantage over Us , becaus that would defeat his whole plan, it's what Satan would like us to believe and is part of the deception of the trinity Lie. You see Satan doesn't want us to (REALLY) believe what God the Father did for Jesus He can do the exact same for us also. Jesus said he had Glory with the Father before the world was, he understood what God had already forordained him for and that glory was brought into existence when the FAther Planned it. And thats where Jesus understood it from, He know what His destiny was and that destiny was to be gloryified by the Father.
When Jesus said all those things about His being before Abraham and so forth , it was simply His realization of His part in the plan of the Father, not that he actually existed as a Being pryer to His birth here on earth…..Just what i think thats all……..peace to you all…..geneGen The scriptures are to clean cut to interpret them any other way, then that He was a Spirit being like His Father.
Col 1:15 and verse 16, Rev. 3:14 and all the verses in Psalms. There is no other way that I can see it. I don't think it was just a plan in Gods mind. But if that what you want to belief that is up to you. I belief 100% that He was a being like God our Heavenly Father.Peace and Love Mrs.:D
OK, I haven't been keeping up with this discussion and I hope to make some regular contributions here. So forgive me if I cover old ground. If I do, you can politely point me to where it has already been discussed.
Before looking at the (so called) pre-existent scriptures I would like to point out what some of the Church Fathers say regarding this subject. Of course just because they say whatever doesn't make it right, but at least we can see what some pre-nicene believers say on this subject.
To date, I haven't seen any writing from a pre-nicene Church father who teaches that Jesus is just a man, or a being who started his life in the womb of Mary.
Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D)
How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.
(To the Tarsians, VI)
…….For what says “The man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself” for the life and salvation of the world. Whosoever, therefore, declares that there is but one God, only so as to take away the divinity of Christ, is a devil, and an enemy of all righteousness. He also that confesseth Christ, yet not as the Son of the Maker of the world, but of some other unknown being, different from Him whom the law and the prophets have proclaimed, this man is an instrument of the devil. And he that rejects the incarnation, and is ashamed of the cross for which I am in bonds, this man is antichrist. Moreover, he who affirms Christ to be a mere man is accursed, according to the prophet, since he puts not his trust in God, but in man.
(To the Antiochians, IV-V).Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D)
First Apology
….Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten. (23).For what is called by the Divine Spirit through the prophet “his robe,” are those men who believe in him in whom abides the seed of God, the Word. And what is spoken of as “the blood of the grape,” signifies that he who should appear would have blood, though not of the seed of man, but of the power of God. And the first power after God the Father and Lord of all is the Word, who is also the Son; and of Him we will, in what follows, relate how He took flesh and became man. (32).
Second Apology
But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words, Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God's ordering all things through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained. (6).For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is out of the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. (13).
Other
And God, the Father of the cosmos, who is the perfect intelligence, the truth. And the Word, being His Son, came to us, having put on flesh, revealing both himself and the Father, giving to us in himself resurrection from the dead, and eternal life afterwards. And this is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord. (On the Resurrection, 1).Athenagoras (ca. 175 A.D)
But the Son of God is the Word of the Father, in idea and in operation, for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of Spirit, the knowledge and Word of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Word, but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things,Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)
God made all things out of nothing, for nothing was coexisting with God, but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known, for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy, but He that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. He [the Word] is called “the Beginning” [arche],1 because he rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by him.To all….To me the whole idea of Jesus preexistence goes against what God was showing us. Why would God take an already perfect being and cause him to become a man and show us how a perfect being could walk this earth and not sin. What point would that proves to us, whats perfect remains perfect, o well is that not what perfect persons do. It would prove nothing to man if that was the case, no God created another Adam who had no advantage over us other than God was fully in Him by His spirit and this happened thats why God said (THIS DAY) I have begotten You, not some time in the past as a preexistence would imply. Jesus was no different then you and i, he had no preexistent advantage or Knowledge. He grow and learned Just like we do, the only difference is he had Gods spirit on Him at berth, where we recieve it after were baptised. Jesus could not Call us brothers if he were really different from us in any way. Jesus was in the Fathers plan from the foundations of the earth and was brought forth ( Manifested) in our time. Just like the apostle Peter said .
Simple a Human man just like you and I.
There is no specific scripture were Jesus said He existed as a being pryer his berth other than in the will and plan of the Fahter. Jesus Know what his destine was and that included the glory afored Him by the Father and therefore that glory existed before he was every born. Just like cyrus glory existed 200 yrs before he was born and others including us also.For whom He foreknow He (ALSO) predestined to be made like unto the image of His son.
Just the way i see it……geneT8…..I kind of agree with most of what Theophilus of Antioch said with the exception of the later part.
I believe the idea of preexistence of Jesus as some being was a fore runner of the trinitarian idology, It gives way to pre devine thinking used to foster another God being and is a very nessary for the trinitarian thology. This idea was originally us by the gnostics and is one of the reason John had to keep reminding his followers tha they needed to see Jsues as comming in the Flesh. Because if you view him any differently you lean to devine reincornation, and then God incarnnated. This is a very interesting subject and deserves a lot of descussion….peace to all……geneTo all:
If Christ only pre-existed in the foreknowledge of God then we all pre-existed whom God foreknew. But which of us as children of God or those who followed Christ on earth and wrote the new testament declared that by them the worlds were created?
Which of us can declare that we knew God, not just that he knew us by foreknowledge?
Which of us prays to the Father specifically claiming to be with him before the world was?
Who among us found our place with him before the foundation of the world?
Who among us can claim to have seen God or to have come down from heaven?
Where in the scriptures is the word referred to as a person?
Did the Son of God change?
Take Care
Steven
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 29 2007,03:07) To all….To me the whole idea of Jesus preexistence goes against what God was showing us. Why would God take an already perfect being and cause him to become a man and show us how a perfect being could walk this earth and not sin. What point would that proves to us, whats perfect remains perfect, o well is that not what perfect persons do.
A perfect being who was willing to empty himself and take on flesh, is the perfect description of a redeemer who will take flesh beings and make them perfect as he is perfect.That is just one way of looking at it.
Otherwise if he came as a divine being with all power, then how could he relate to us and how could we relate to him?
He became one of us and was tempted in all the ways that we are.
Jesus came in the flesh.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.How can this be read as not preexisting?
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”How can we read this as Christ not existing before Abraham?
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”If Jesus is the root of David, then how can he also be his offspring?
Would this not indicate that he is the source of David and then he was born as a man later into the lineage of David?
To all
The reason I think Christ existed is that God knew that Mankind would Sin. And no man will ever be without Sin. In order to save Mankind He had to send somebody that He Himself taught all things. His mind is and always has been in Jesus and that is why I belief that Jesus could never sin. He knew what was at stake. Jesus came forth from the Father first, then became Man. So in all things He can have preeminence. If Jesus was not there before the world was, He could not have preeminence.
All scriptures given go along with that, there is no doubt in my mind that Jesus did not existed before the World was created, scriptures teaches me so. Prove all things I have.Peace and Love Mrs.:D
IM4Truth, I can't tell if you believe in Yeshua's preexistence or not.
On one hand you say that he was the first even before the world because he has preeminence, and then you conclude that Jesus did not existed before the World was created.
Did you mean to say 'did' instead of 'did not'?
t8 I meant that He did exist before the world was. Sorry I wrote that wrong. And yes I did prove it to myself that He did.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D to all…….> things that preexistence proponates need to answer.
1…… why is Jesus called the second (MAN) Adam. if he truly was not the second Adam in every way.
2……What did PETER mean when he said
He was forordained (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) in our time.
3…… Why did God say that the (SEED) of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent.
4….why did Moses say the lord shall raise up from (your) Brethern one like Me.
5 …why did Jesus learn as he grew if he already existed.
6….. why didn't Jesus say that he existed as a (being) before his earthly birth. Saying he said he was before Abraham does not say he existed before Abraham as any being whatsoever.
7….> why is there no activity of Him before his birth.
8….> What does it prove if a super being came to earth and walked perfectly. He would not be truly exactly us in every way.
9….> where is the word incarnate at because that would have to be the case if he was alive before and died and came to be born in human form.
10….> using non specific language does not prove the point of preexistence, not applying the atributes of God to him does not either. Nor does using words like christos to repersent the person Jesus instead of the Spirit of God either.
The preexistence and incornation of Jesus is a trinitarian concept. And in my opinion is not truly scriptural. It gives Jesus and advantage he didn't have and it robs God of the work He was doing in Jesus….>Please be specific ….geneMandy I am not going to worry about it. That's all. I could explain, but have no interest in doing so. Let somebody else do it. There are others that believe in the preexisting of Jesus.
Peace and Love Irene
Sis,
I truly believe the scriptures can lend themselves to both explainations. I have studied this topic quite extensively. It is my personal belief that the scriptures given to prove the preexistence of Christ can be explained away as something else. Whereas the scriptures that point to Christ beginning his *only* life on earth are quite clear and direct. In other words, one must deduce and deduct from various scriptures throughout the Bible to come up with the preexistence theory. One must only look to the gospels to see that Jesus was born…..
T8:
Nice job!
Jesus also said, what if ye shall see the son of man ascend up to where he was before? What more could he say to indicate he was in heaven prior to coming to the earth?
I have an axiom I use for interpreting scripture. First, see if Christ addressed the issue. Second, see if the apostles addressed the issue. Most of the false doctrines will be exposed under this two prong test.
Under the first prong (what did Jesus say?) I came down from heaven. I came from the Father in heaven. The Father sent me. John the Baptist in the gospel said that Christ existed before him. Jesus said he existed before Abraham in a passage of scripture where he refers to God as his Father.
To conclude that Jesus did not pre-exist you must argue that none of thes unambiguous scriptures mean what they say. Now you better have some serious proof to do that. I can't find it in the gospels, but I can give you more scriptures that say he did pre-exist.
Did the apostles teach that Christs pre-existed?
Paul said that God made the worlds by Jesus Christ and that Christ created all things in Hebrews and in Colossians. If he created all things then his pre-existence is required otherwise Paul is mistaken. So the apostle Paul believed that he pre-existed as a person, not as a Word.
Let's look at some scriptures that support that Jesus only existed as the Word, not as a person being the Son of God. Can we find any scriptures where Jesus says that his existence as the Son of God began when he was born on earth? He is the word made flesh. Jesus didn't say that but the gospel does, which is a good argument. Was he only the Word made flesh? I'm coming up dry again. Whenever Christ speaks of where he came from he uses the grammar indicating he was a person. If he was a person then he had to be the Son of God since he always refers to God as his Father.
To deny Christ' pre-existence is to deny that he existed before Mary. If he only existed as the Word, then we all pre-existed because we have all been begotten by God by his word.
Most Trinitarians believe that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God eternally. This belief denies Christ son-ship on its face because if he existed eternally he was never a son. This is a very troubled view which is generally held by believers that will just accept whatever their taught.
I've learned recently that some trinitarians do not believe that Christ pre-existed as the Son, but as the Word, which is God. This is only Trinitarian in name because it rejects the belief that Christ sonship is eternal. This view also contradicts the many scriptures that say Christ was sent from the Father, which is in heaven because it holds that Christ beginning as the Son of God was on earth not in heaven.
Take care
Steven
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