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Hey Frank,
I know I said I'd leave you alone, but I have a simple question for you:
Who said the words in John 17:5?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2012,10:04) God created the cosmos through Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.We possess a will that allows us to freely believe this truth or not.
I choose to believe. Up to you what you do with it.
Hi T8,Col.1:16 is about the father, which is the subject starting in verse 12.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 14 2012,10:02) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 14 2012,09:56) Ed J, I would suggest that you heed the warning instructed in Scripture in not adding onto Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Hi Frank,Are you accusing me of doing that?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,It is quite clear that you did do this as is evident as follows:
Quote “shall not thy teachers (Frank) be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it” (Isaiah 30:20-21)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2012,10:10) Hey Frank, I know I said I'd leave you alone, but I have a simple question for you:
Who said the words in John 17:5?
Mike,It is quite evident that Yahshua is recorded as saying this. I believe we have been through this before.
“The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
Yahchanan [John] 17:5Do these words mean that Yahshua was personally with the Father from the very beginning? or are they expressive of the fact that Yahweh, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the glory of His completed plan?
The latter without doubt! This is shown beyond question because of the use of similar language in the same manner.
Thus Kepha taught that Yahshua was “foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifested (made known) in these last times for you” (1 Kepha [Peter] 1:20). Yahchanan [John] describes him as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).
Was Yahshua “slain from the foundation of the world”? Typically, yes, in the sacrifices provided; but literally, no.
In like manner, Yahweh, who knows the end from the beginning, foresaw the glory of His son Yahshua and proclaimed it through the prophets. The ultimate glory of Yahshua was in the mind and purpose of the Father from the very beginning.
He also provided for the ultimate glory of Messiah's followers, so that Yahshua prayed:
“The glory which You gave me, I have given them” (Yahchanan [John] 17:22).
Do Messiah's followers possess his glory now? They do not, they are merely “in hope” of it (cf. Romans 5:2).
How can Yahshua then claim to have given it to them? Only in the sense that he has provisionally bestowed it, foreknowing that they to whom it is given in promise will fulfil the conditions to ultimately receive it in reality.
Thus, an accepted follower at Yahshua's coming could well speak to Yahweh as Yahshua prayed to the Father:
“Glorify You me with the glory that I had (in promise) with You before world began!”
Yahweh foreknows the completed purpose, and knowing that He will bring it to consummation, is able to “call those things which be not as though they are” (Romans 4:17). Shaul taught:
“Yahweh chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, without blame before Him” (Eph. 1:4).
If John 17:5 proves the pre-existence of Yahshua, Ephesians 1:4 must prove the pre-existence of all who are followers of him!
The same language is used of other men whom Yahweh has used in a special way. Of Yeremiah it is written:
“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” (Yeremiah 1:5).
Does that prove the pre-existence of Yeremiah? If not, why should Yahchanan [John] 17:5 be used to teach the pre-existence of Yahshua, and so be made to conflict with many other references which speak of him as the son of David born 1900 years ago? Similar language is used of Shaul (Galatians 1:15) and others. When Yahshua returns, his accepted followers will be granted a glory similar to that bestowed upon him. They will be “conformed to the image of Father Yahweh's son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).
SOURCEAlso see:
The First & the Last
By Voy WilksQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2012,10:31) OOOPs
Seem to have lost my EDIT function
sigh..
Nick,I sure wish that I had editing privileges on this forum.
I don't see why all can not edit their posts here as in most forums that I visit.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 13 2012,19:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2012,10:10) Hey Frank, Who said the words in John 17:5?
Mike,It is quite evident that Yahshua is recorded as saying this.
Hmmm………….. What do know about that, Nick? Frank seems to understand clearly that Jesus said those words. Perhaps he hasn't been given the spirit like you have?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 13 2012,19:27) Do these words mean that Yahshua was personally with the Father from the very beginning? or are they expressive of the fact that Yahweh, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the glory of His completed plan? The latter without doubt!
I don't think foresaw a FUTURE glory really fits in with the words “the glory I had“, do you Frank?
Hi MB,
Do you not know Jesus lived in unity with the Spirit?
Did you not know he was taught by the Spirit?
1Jn 2.27fSo then you're saying that Frank's information is wrong, Nick?
Do you see how lame the explanations are when you try to make scripture form around your own wishes?
We've got Frank saying that the words “the glory I had” refer to a glory Jesus didn't yet have.
And we've got Nick saying that God speaking through Jesus said those words, meaning God called Himself “Father”, and spoke of the glory He had alongside Himself before the world began.
Guys, it's better to just read the scriptures and believe them, don't you think?
Because you are happy to be at peace with Frank, as long as your end game remains the same. That is not how it works though, Nick. ONE OF YOU TWO must be wrong. Which one?
The truth is that Frank is half-right, and you are way out there, Nick.
For sure Jesus said those words, because the God-inspired scriptures tell us so. But Jesus surely didn't use the words “I HAD” to refer to something he never in fact had.
The scriptural truth of the matter is that the person Jesus spoke to his God about returning to the glory he himself had alongside his God before the world was created by his God through him.
Nick,
It seems that Mike has never had a child that he felt esteem [“glory”] for before the child was actually conceived or born or that he believes that no one should have esteem for their child before their child is actually conceived or born.
Mike………..God was speaking through Jesus and in some cases spoke first person. it was not Jesus who said destory this temple and in three day (I) shall raise it up, That was God first person speaking by his Spirit through Jesus' mouth. Jesus was dead and did not raise his body from death it was God the Father who did that. and where it says , “Jerusalem , Jerusalem , who Kills them sent to you how often would (I) have gathered you as a hen gathers Her chick under her wing , but you would not”………..> That was not coming from Jesus it was coming from GOD the Father directly through Jesus' mouth.
When Thomas said “MY Lord (AND) MY GOD”, he was not mistaken GOD the FATHER was present indeed (IN) Jesus by his Spirit. Just as it says in JOEL (I) YAHWEH Shall pour forth of MY SPIRIT upon ALL FLESH.
peace and love……………………………………………………..gene
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