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Yahshua's Glory Before the Foundation of the World
Does This Mean He Pre-existed?
By Voy Wilks
2/4/89“And now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made” (Jn. 17:5 RSV).
“Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the the foundation of the world” (Jn. 17:24).
It is clear that Yahweh the Supreme Being planned to send a Savior, so in this sense Yahshua pre-existed before the world was made – in Yahweh's plan. Did Yahshua pre-exist bodily, as a Deity, before the world was made?
First we must never forget that Yahweh was alone in creating the earth – the universe. No other Mighty One, no other Deity, was with him. He alone created everything. This was still true in the days of Isaiah the Prophet. Yahweh alone (the Supreme Being) was the only El, the only Eloah, the only true Elohim and the only Yahweh who existed at that time (Isa. 37:16; 40:12-31; 42:5-8; 43:1-15; 44:6; 44:24; 45:5-18; 46:5-9; 48:9-13; 51:12-16). There was no others (Mk. 12:29-33). All through the O.T. this is the song of the prophets and the saints. The N.T. message must agree with this, for the N.T. relies on the O.T. for its life, its very being. In view of this, and the Scripture references by Isaiah the Prophet (noted above), let us examine other N.T. Scriptures which are very similar to Jn. 17:5,24.
“He [the Messiah] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of times for your sake” (1 Peter. 1:20 RSV).
The KJV states this more impressively, if possible, than does the RSV. The message is, before the foundation of the world, Yahweh destined (planned) that a Savior would come, but it was only in Peter's day that he was made manifest to men. In what way was he manifested? In flesh and blood (verse 19). The fact that he “was made manifest” only in Peter's day is an indication that he did not exist (except in plan) before the earth was made, and certainly not as Deity; not the El or the Yahweh who spoke to the Prophets of old (Heb. 1:1). Notice another Scripture, please.
“… and they that dwell on earth shall wonder, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, …” (Rev. 17:8).
“… and all who dwell on earth shall worship [the beast], every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain” (Rev. 13:8 RSV).
Here we see that the saints were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Does this mean the saints had a pre-existence? Did the saints live as deity before the earth was made? No. What happened is, before the earth was made, Yahweh created the book of life and planned that some would (eventually) be recorded there, by individual names. In the same way, he planned for a Savior, even before the world was made. But the KJV reads a little differently in Rev. 13:8.
“And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8 KJV).
This indicates Yahshua the Lamb was “slain before” the earth was made. Did this happen? No, but it was in Yahweh's plan before the world was made to send a Redeemer who would be slain for the sins of men, as Scripture reveals:
“But when the fullness of time was come, Yahweh sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman made under the law, to redeem them that are under the law, …” (Gal. 4:4,5).
“The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Soon after creation, Adam and Eve transgressed, so Yahweh slew an animal and made clothing for them. From what? Probably a lamb, a sheep. Allegorically then, Yahshua (the Lamb) was slain from the foundation of the world, a sacrifice; “… without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Heb. 9:22). Let us compare other (and similar) Scriptures.
“Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Mt. 25:34).
“That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation” (Lk. 11:50). Abel must have been the first.
“For we are his workmanship, created in Yahshua Messiah unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10).
“For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although his works were finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3).
“Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Savior Yahshua Messiah, who has blessed us in heavenly places, even as he CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined US in love to be his sons through Yahshua Messiah, according the the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according the the riches of his grace which is lavished upon us. For he was made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in the Messiah as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him according to his purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the council of his will, we who first hoped in Messiah have been DESTINED and appointed to live for the praise of his glory” (Eph. 1:3-12 RSV).
Obviously, you and I did not have a pre-existence before the world was made except in Yahweh's plan. This was true also of Yahshua Messiah. Just as Yahweh planned (destined) some (us, you and I) to eventually become sons, even before the world was made, so he planned for a Savior (a Redeemer) to appear “in the fullness of time,” to save those who “live for the praise of his glory.”
Note: This is not to say we do not have a choice. Certainly we do have a choice, just as Israel had a choice. “… I set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving Yahweh your Elohim, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him, for that means life to you …” (Deut. 30:19,20).
Conclusion
The Apostle Paul wrote that Yahweh “… calleth those witch thing be not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17B). He uses Abraham as an example: “I have made thee a father of many nations” This was even before Abraham (Rom. 4:17A from Gen. 17:5). This was even before Abraham fathered his son Isaac. Once Yahweh plans something, it is certain to happen, so he sometimes speaks of it as if it has already come to pass. This is true of the glory which Yahweh planned of his Son Yahshua, and for you and me, if we choose life. He chose us before the foundation of the world. This being true, Jn. 17:5, 24 does not promote the pre-existence.The Redeemer received Yahweh's glory by being in his glorious plan to be accomplished in future centuries. Therefore, Yahshua as Redeemer looked forward to enjoying this glorious face to face with the Father (“in thy own presence” Jn. 17:5) which he had in Yahweh's plans before the world existed. We too, were chosen and destined “before the foundation of the world.”Does Hebrews 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-17 & John 1:10 Say That Yahshua Was Involved in the Creation of the World?
Please note how these passages are translated in the Emphatic Diaglott Greek Interlinear.
Diaglott, Hebrews 1:1-2
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts and in many ways long ago the God having spoken to the fathers by the prophets, in last of the days of these spoke to us by a son,Hebrews 1:2 whom he appointed an heir of all things, (on account of whom also the ages he made,)
Di
aglott, Colossians 1:16-17
Colossians 1:16 because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments, or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;Colossians 1:17 and he is in advance of all, and the things all in him has been placed together;
Diaglott, John 1:10
John 1:10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew.The Greek word di' or dia which is translated 'by' in the A.K.J.V. and 'through' in the R.S.V. in Hebrews 1:2 is translated 'on account of' in the Emphatic Diaglott.
This changes the meaning of this passage of Hebrews 1:1-2 considerably from how the K.J.V. and the A.S.V. translates. It does not say that Yahshua was involved in the creation of the world, but that the world was created “on account of” of him. This translation brings Hebrews 1:2 in harmony with the entire context of Scripture, in that it was Father Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth ALONE (cf. Psalm 121:1, 33:6-9; Isayah 44:24) . Following is how the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates Hebrews 1:2.
K.J.V., Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;R.S.V., Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.Now, I ask you, are you going to ignore the entire context of Scripture where it is said that Father Yahweh ALONE created the heavens and the earth for how a translator may have translated a word in a few passages?
Even Yahshua himself credited Father Yahweh for the creation of Adam and Eve, not even so much as mentioning that he had any hand in creating them.
Have you not read, that He Who made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:27).
Yahshua surely had an involvement in the creation of the heavens and the earth in that Father Yahweh had him in mind, but he had no hand in the actual creation in the beginning. He was not a “co-creator” with Father Yahweh in the beginning as many deceptively teach. He did not even “pre-exist” with Father Yahweh, nor was he Father Yahweh. Yahshua was Father Yahweh's son as Scripture teaches.
Frank
In your 4paragraph the men lied because in Gen 1 :thenGod says LET US MAKE,,'
Is the US ,stands for God alone ?
Pierre
ALONE, #905
By Voy Wilks
03/24/92Dozens, perhaps hundreds of Scriptures inform us there is only ONE true EL, ONE true Elohim, and ONE true Yahweh. This is the most fundamental principle set forth in the Sacred Writings: There is ONE and only ONE true Deity. Nevertheless, many brethren are unwilling to believe these Scriptures. When speaking of Yahweh, some believe ONE means TWO, while others believe ONE means THREE. In other words, the view is: ONE equals TWO OR MORE.
Having in this fashion abandoned the basic principles of mathematics, and the normal meaning of words, some have concluded that two or more Yahweh's exist, and jointly participated in the creation of the earth and all things in it.
There are more than one hundred Scriptures * which reveal that the ONE TRUE YAHWEH created the earth; Scriptures so simply and clearly stated that a small child can understand and believe them. Failure to believe these plain Scriptures requires indoctrination in UNBELIEF. Ezra the Scribe said,
Yahweh Alone
“Thou art Yahweh, THOU ALONE; ** thou hast made the heavens, the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all this is in them; and thou preservest all of them; and the hosts of heaven worship thee. Thou art Yahweh, the Elohim *** who didst choose Abram and bring him forth out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham …” (Neh. 9:6 -7 RSV).
First, “Thou” art Yahweh. In the KJV the singular is “thou” and “thee,” while the plural is “Ye” and sometimes “you.” This indicates that Ezra addressed one (only one) Yahweh – the Yahweh who created the earth – the one who spoke with Abraham.
Of more significance: “Thou art Yahweh, thou ALONE” (STRONG'S #905). This indicates a single Yahweh exists (only one). There are no others. It was this one and only Yahweh who ALONE – WITH NO HELP – created the earth and all things in it. Hezekiah offered a striking prayer:
“O Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, who art enthroned above the cherubim, thou art Elohim, THOU ALONE [#905], of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast MADE the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. … Sennacherib, which … has sent to mock the living Elohim. … So now, O Yahweh our Elohim, save us, I beseech THEE, from his hand, that ALL T HE KINGDOMS OF THE EARTH MAY KNOW that THOU, O YAHWEH, art Elohim ALONE” [#905] (2 Kings 19:15 – 19).
If there really is only ONE Yahweh, could it be stated more clearly? The King's prayer was, “Save us, so that all kingdoms of the earth MAY KNOW that you ALONE are YAHWEH Elohim. There are no others.” “Blessed be Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, WHO ALONE (#905) does wondrous things” (Ps. 72:17 RSV. “Who only” KJV).
Adam Alone
Let us examine a few Scriptures which reveal that the word “alone” (#905) indicates ONE unaccompanied person, not two or three. If we can understand that each of the persons named below as unaccompanied, then perhaps we can better understand the statement that Yahweh was also alone – unaccompanied by another Yahweh – another El.
“The Yahweh Elohim said, It is not good that man should be ALONE” [#905] (Gen. 2:18).
Adam was “alone.” Does this mean Adam had one or two persons with him? No. At that time he didn't even have Even with him.
Jacob Alone
Jacob took his wives and children and “… sent them across the stream, and likewise everything he had. And Jacob was left ALONE [#905]; …” (Gen. 32:23, 24).
Benjamin Alone
“… and he ALONE [#905] is left of his mother's children; and his father loves him” (Gen. 44:20).
Moses Alone
“Moses ALONE [#905] shall come near to Yahweh, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him” (Ex 24:2).
“I am not able to carry all this people ALONE [#905], the burden is too heavy for me. … And I [Yahweh, verse 16] will come down and talk with you there; and I will take some of my spirit which is upon you and put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself ALONE” (Nu. 11:14, 17; Deut. 1:9, 12).
One Runner Alone
“Now David was sitting between two gates; and the watchman went up to the roof of the gate by the wall, and … he saw A MAN running ALONE” [#905] (2 Sam. 18:24, 25, 26).
One Messenger Alone
“… and there came a messenger to Job, and said, The oxen were plowing and the asses feeding beside them; and the Sabeans fell upon them and took the, and slew the servants with the sword; and I LONE [#905] have escaped to tell you” (Job 1:14, 15, 16, 17, 19).
The above Scriptures indicate what we all know; that when a person is ALONE, it is a mistake to affirm there are two or more persons present. Since this is now understood, let us review a few more Scriptures which reveal that Yahweh ALONE was the Creator; no one was with him; no one helped him. There is no other true Yahweh. He ALONE is Yahweh.
Yahweh Alone Created
With No Help Or Advice From Another El
“Then Job answered: Truly I know that it is so: But how can a man be just before El? … who commands the sun, … who seals up the stars; who ALONE [#905] stretched out the heavens; … the sea; who made the Bear and Orion, …” (Job 9:1, 7 – 9).
In this one chapter of 35 verses the personal, singular pronouns “He” and “Him” are used 30 times, confirming that Yahweh, the one true El, was indeed ALONE in the Creation.
“Let them [the heathen] KNOW that THOU ALONE [#905], WHOSE NAME IS YAHWEH, are the MOST HIGH over the earth” (Ps. 83:18).
The El who communicated with the prophets of Israel (Verses 1 – 4), whose name is Yahweh, is the MOST HIGH over all the earth. This rules out the possibility of a “second, inferior Yahweh – Yahweh #2, as some label him. This was the only Yahweh – the one true El who created the earth.
“There is none like thee among the elohim, O Yahweh, nor are there any works like thine. All nations shall come and bow down before thee, O Yahweh, and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great and doest wondrous things, THOU ALONE [#905] art Elohim” (Ps. 86:8 – 10).
“O give thanks to YAHWEH, for he is good, for HIS steadfast love endures forever. … To HIM who ALONE [#905] does great wonders, … to HIM who by understanding MADE THE HEAVENS, … to HIM who spread out the earth upon the waters; … to HIM who MADE the great lights, … the sun to rule by the day, …the moon and stars to rule over the night, … to HIM who smote the firstborn of Egypt, … and brought Israel out from among them, …” (Ps. 136: 1 – 11).
There is the ONLY YAHWEH who does great wonders, therefore this is the only Yahweh who exists. He is the one who created all things, and who led Israel. “He” and “Him” occur in this one Psalm 36 times, showing Yahweh is only one person, even as the Shema reveals (Deut. 6:4). This psalm concludes with the statement,
“O give thanks to THE EL of heaven, for HIS steadfast love endures for ever” (Ps. 136:26). If there was at that time more than ONE EL (more than one Yahweh) in heaven, as is claimed, would it not have been unwise to exclude one of them?
“Let them praise the name of Yahweh, for HIS name ALONE [#905] is exalted; HIS glory is above the earth and heaven” (Ps. 148:13).
If in David's time there were TWO Yahweh's in heaven, why praise only ONE of them? Friends, there was only one whose name was Yahweh. This is the heavenly Father, the one and only true El.
“Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust from before the terror of Yahweh, and from the glory of HIS majesty. The haughty looks of man shall be brought low, and the pride of men shall be humbled; and YAHWEH ALONE [#905] will be EXALTED in that day” (Isa. 2:10, 11, 17).
Again, this reveals the truth of the Shema: there is only one true El whose name is Yahweh. He ALONE is to be praised as the ONE TRUE EL w hen all enemies are vanqu
ished.“And Hezekiah prayed to Yahweh: 'O Yahweh of hosts, Elohim of Israel, who art enthroned above the cherubim, THOU ART ELOHIM, THOU ALONE [#905], of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made the heaven and earth. … So now, O Yahweh our Elohim, save us from his hand, THAT ALL KINGDOMS OF THE EARTH MAY KNOW that THOU ALONE [#905] art Yahweh” (Isa. 37:15, 16, 20).
Righteous Hezekiah
1. Wanted relief from the ravages of war, and
2. Wanted all nations of the earth to KNOW that YAHWEH ALONE is the one true El.
“Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: 'I am Yahweh, who made ALL THINGS, who stretched out the heavens ALONE [#905], who spread out the earth – WHO WAS WITH ME?” (Isa. 44:24).
The answer to that question is obvious: No one was with him. He, the only Yahweh who exists, stretched out the heavens all ALONE.
End Notes
* Please ask for the paper, “Who is Creator? 107 Scriptures.”
http://www.halleluyah.org/ContactUs.html** Dictionary definition, ALONE (1) Without company; solitary: to live alone. (2) Excluding all others; solely; only: He alone survived. Single, by itself, in solitude. (3) Without equal; unique; unparalleled: As an artist, he stands alone. Synonyms are: lonesome, companionless, unaccompanied, unattended, deserted.
*** Please read our article, “Elohim – Singular Or Plural?”.
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/Elohim.htmlONE LONE YAHWEH
“That men may know that thou, WHOSE NAME ALONE IS YAHWEH, art the most high over all the earth” (Ps. 83:18 KJV).
Scriptures teach us there is only ONE Deity, only one Supreme Being, and that ONE BEING is Yahweh – Yahweh ALONE. There is no other. When the name Yahweh appears in Scriptures, it is in almost every case accompanied with singular pronouns; i.e., I, me, my, mine, he, him, his, etc. This is also true of the title “Elohim.” Hundreds, perhaps thousands of times Scriptures use singular pronouns with the Name Yahweh and the title Elohim, just as they do with the word “El” – proof there is only ONE Yahweh, who is the ONE true Elohim.
In only a few Scriptures “us,” “we,” and “our” are used with Elohim and Yahweh. It is not reasonable to allow these few plural pronouns to negate hundreds of singular pronouns associated with The Name, or with his titles. Shall we accept the few, and X out the hundreds? Surely the answer is no. Instead, we should search for an explanation for the use of the plural pronouns in these few Scriptures. We have done this, so please ask for these separate studies.
The above Scriptures clearly state there is ONE (only one) Yahweh. Scriptures listed below reveal there is ONE (only one) true El or Elohim. El and Elohim are used interchangeable when referring to Yahweh. Some believe that ONE, when referring to Yahweh Elohim, means TWO or MORE. Question: In the following Scripture is it reasonable to believe t hat ONE signifies ONE (truly) in everything named except “ONE Elohim?”
“There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as you were called ONE HOPE that belongs to your calling, ONE Master, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE ELOHIM and FATHER of us all, who is above all and through all and in all” (Eph. 4:4-6 RSV).
As notes above, some have the notion there is one of everything, except Elohim, which consists of two Beings. If true, then there are TWO FATHERS as well, because ELOHIM IS THE FATHER. However, “Father” is singular, so Elohim must be understood as singular also. Many Scriptures indicate Yahweh the Father is the only true Elohim, and Yahshua is not included. He is separate and apart, as is indicated by the following declaration:
“ … to the ONLY ELOHIM our Savior, THROUGH YAHSHUA the Messiah our Master, be glory, majesty, dominion, and power, before all time, and now, and forevermore” (Jude 25 Sacred Scriptures – Bethel Edition).
So, dear friends, if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not a Yahweh, since there is only ONE Yahweh. Nor was he a true El or Elohim since there is only ONE TRUE El and ONE TRUE Elohim. If Yahshua pre-existed, was he an angel?
“For TO WHAT ANGEL did Yahweh ever say, ‘Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?’” (Heb. 1:5).
“But TO WHAT ANGEL has he ever said, ‘Sit at my right hand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?’” (Heb. 1:13).
Never did Yahweh say to an angel (any angel), “You are my son, sit here.”
1) If Yahshua pre-existed, he was not an angel (Heb. 1:5, 13; 2:5, 16).
2) If Yahshua pre-existed, he was not an El or an Elohim, since there is ONLY ONE TRUE El and ONE TRUE ELOHIM (Rom 16:26).
3) If Yahshua pre-existed, he was not a Yahweh, since there is ONLY ONE true Yahweh (Isa. 45:5, 6).
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
Genesis 1:26,27
By Voy Wilks
8/31/98“Then Elohim said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'” (Gen. 1:26, RSV).
Monotheism means one. Any person who believes in the Trinity or the Duality cannot properly claim to believe in Monotheism. The reason being, Trinity means three, Duality means two, while Monotheism means one – One theos, or One Elohim, not two, three, or a dozen. Of course,, Trinitarians and Dualists will heartily disagree, but this is fact. This is Truth. Monotheism means ONE. Perhaps a better term is Mono-el-ism; ONE EL.
Let Us
Because the words us and our appear in Genesis 1:26, “Let us make man in our images and our likeness, Trinitarians say, “Ah ha! This proves the Trinity.” But surprise: Dualist say, “Ah ha! This proves the Duality of Yahweh.” Isn't this amazing? It seems we have a choice. Based on these two little words, we can believe in the Trinity, or we can believe in Duality, all the while referring to these as Monotheism. Amazing!
After this astonishing revelation, let us now look at Genesis 1:27:
“So Elohim created man in HIS own image, in the image of Elohim HE created him; male and female HE created them.”
Comparison
Genesis 1:26 contains three plural pronouns. Genesis 1:27 contains three singular pronouns. All refer to the same person – the Creator. If Trinitarians and Dualists can ignore verse 27 with its singular pronouns, perhaps I should have the privilege of ignoring verse 26 with its plural pronouns. I speak lightly, of course, to encourage thought and study. My preference is, none of us should ignore Biblical Scripture as originally given.
Image and Likeness
Have you noticed? Image and likeness are not plural words, but singular; in Hebrew as well as English. Dr. Bullinger pointed this out, even though he was a Trinitarian. Elohim made man in the image of Elohim, not images of Elohim. This indicates the image (singular) of one person, not two or three persons. The same is true of likeness. The word is singular.
A Translator's Footnote (Gen. 1:26)
RSV Harper Study Bible, notes by Harold Lindsell.
“Let us make man. Many interpret us to mean the Trinity, … but probably early readers understood the word as the plural of majesty, just as the plural Elohim (Hebrew) is used of God to denote his majesty and attributes. Another possible interpretation is the picture of God consulting with his angelic court, the host of heaven (1 Kings 22:19), or the sons of God (Job 1:6).” (Emphasis added).It is interesting to note that Harold Lindsell believed in the Trinity, indicated by his note on Mt. 28:19, nevertheless he realized Gen. 1:26 does not promote the Trinity. He spoke of “early readers” who understood the word as the plural of majesty. “Early readers” would be the Saints of antiquity and the disciples of the first century C.E. who had no knowledge of Duality or Trinity (See The Christian Doctrine of God, Vol. 1, by the noted Theologian, Emil Brunner, pages 205-237; published by Westminister Press, Philadelphia, 1946).
The Reference: 1st Kings 22:19
When we consult the reference given by Mr. Lindsell (2 Kings 22:19), we see that his point is certainly worth considering:
“And Micaiah said, 'Therefore hear the word of Yahweh: I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all of the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and Yahweh said,
“'Who will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?' And one said one thing and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh, saying, 'I will entice him.' And Yahweh said to him, 'By what means?'
“'I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'
“Now therefore behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you” (1 Kings 22:19-22, RSV).
We see that Yahweh consulted with his celestial court on this occasion. He may have done the same in the beginning (Gen. 1:26). His celestial court consisted of the following:
(1) Yahweh
(2) The angels. Note Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13).
(3) The living creatures (the living beasts); that is, the Cherubim.
(4) No one else was present, apparently.Footnote, Genesis 1:26
New English Bible
“The plural us (Gen. 3:22; 11:7) may be a majestic plural, or else refer to minor divine beings thought to surround God, like the courtiers of a human king (1 Kings 22:19-22).”Only One Yahweh & Only One True El
Since there is only one Yahweh and only one true El (Deut. 6:4; Neh. 9:6; John 17:3), this confirms Yahshua was not present in the beginning (1) as the Creator, or (2) as a second Yahweh (Gen. 1:26); nor was he present in the days of Ahab (1 Kings 22:19).
“To you it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is Elohim; there is no other besides HIM. … know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that Yahweh is Elohim in heaven above and on earth beneath; there is no other” (Deut. 4:35,39, RSV).
Deut. 6:4
Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is ONE Yahweh, …” (Deut. 6:4).
One is translated from the Hebrew word echad, equal in every respect to the English word, one. Echad is a cardinal number, meaning one as in one, two, three, etc. A cardinal number establishes how many, whereas an ordinal number establishes a place in a sequence, such as first, second, third, etc. Yahweh is not first among several. Instead, he is the ONE true El; the ONLY Yahweh who exist (2 Sam. 22:32; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10; 44:6; 45:5,6,21,22; Mark 12:28-32; Luke 18:19; Rev. 15:4).
There are more than sixty Scriptures which declare there is one Yahweh; one true Elohim so, is it rational to ignore 60 Scriptures in preference to three little words in Genesis 1:26?
Conclusion
Since there are more than sixty Scriptures which declare there is one Yahweh, the evidence indicates we must accept the three plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26 as Mr. Lindsell suggested:
(1) As the plural of majesty, not as a plurality of persons; a plurality of Deities, or
(2) Accept the view that the only Yahweh who exists consulted with his Angelic Court, as illustrated in 2 Kings 22:19.
Scriptures do not support the doctrine of the Trinity, neither do they support the doctrine of Duality of Deities. Scriptures teach Monotheism; One Yahweh – One true El.
“You believe that Yahweh is one; you do well; the demons believe also, and tremble” (James 2:19).
“TELL US”
Isaiah 41:21-26
By Voy Wilks
3/26/99Throughout the Scriptures most references to Yahweh use singular pronouns; I, me, my, mine, he, him, his, etc. Why is this? The answer is, Yahweh truly is ONE, so naturally, singular pronouns are associated with Yahweh, the El, of Israel.
“Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is one Yahweh: … (Deut. 6:4, KJV).
“Ye [Israel, Verse 1] are my witnesses, saith Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no El formed, neither shall there be ANY AFTER ME. I, even I am Yahweh; and beside me there is no savior” (Isa. 43:10,11).
In a few references, however, Scriptures do use plural pronouns, even when the One Yahweh is spoken of. There is an explanation for each, as in the following quotation:
“Produce your cause, saith Yahweh; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the king of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and show US what shall happen: let them show the former things, what they be, that WE may consider them, or declare to US things for to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter that WE may know that ye are gods: ye, do good, or do evil, that WE may be dismayed and behold
it together. …“Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work is nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you. I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon mortar, and as the potter treadeth clay. Who hath declared from the beginning, that WE may know? And before time, that WE may say, He is righteous? there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words” (Isa. 41:21-26, KJV).
In these verses, us and we are used several times in connection with the one Yahweh. Why is this?
o Some might claim these verses support the doctrine of the Trinity. But no. The Trinity is a false doctrine. It is not true. As noted above, there is only ONE El. “Before me, no El was formed, neither shall there be [any] after me” (Isa. 43:10).
o Some might claim these verses support the doctrine of the Twinity (the Duality); two Els, two Yahwehs. But no. We have just found that Yahweh is one Yahweh. THERE IS NO OTHER (Deut. 6:4). “Before me, no El was formed nor shall there be any after me” (Isa. 43:10, RSV).
What, then, can we say about these plural pronouns in reference to Yahweh? Long ago, wise men reported we shuld notice the context; note the general message before, in, and after the verse being studied, Therefore, let us do so at this time. Go back to verse one of Isaiah 41.
“Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; let them speak: let US come near together to judgment” (Isa. 41:1).
We see that Yahweh calls to the people of the Coast Lands. “Let us meet together.” Both Yahweh and the peoples of the Coast Lands.
In the verses which follow, Yahweh reveals to his listeners some of his majestic deeds. Idolaters, on the other hand, encourage each other in the creation of and worship to their idols (Isa. 41:5-7).
Now note: The Most High brings Israel into the picture, and reassures his chosen people of his continuing love. “You are my servant. Have no fear. I will help you” (Isa. 41:8-20).
So we now have THREE PARTIES: (1) Yahweh, (2) Israel, and (3) those who worship idols. Yahweh and Israel stand together. And what happens?
Set forth your case (you idolaters). Give proof of your power. Your great deeds. Tell US: (Us = Yahweh, Israel, and the gathered idolaters). Tell us what is to happen. Declare to us who are assembled here the things which will come to pass hereafter, so we will know you are gods. Yahweh's summation is,
“Behold, they (the idols) are all a delusion; their works are nothing; their molten images are empty wind” (Isa. 41:29, RSV).
Helpful Quotations From Other Versions
o “Present your case, …” (Isa. 41:21, Berkeley Version). Footnote: “In verses 1-4 worshipers of idols are addressed; in verses 21-24 the idols are challenged.”
o “Listen … come now and speak, … The court is ready for your case” (Isa. 41:1, TLB).
o “Elohim says, be silent and listen to me, you distant lands. Get ready to present your case in court: you will have your chance to speak” (Isa. 41:1, Good News Bible); and verse 21: “Yahweh the king of Israel has this to say, you gods of the nations, present your case. Bring the best arguments you have. … Explain to the court the things of the past, …”
Conclusion
It is significant that none of these versions refer to Isa. 41 as a support for the Trinity. This is true of reference books, also, which were consulted. They were to honest to claim this verse supports the Trinity or the Duality.
In reviewing Isaiah chapter 41, we see clearly, in the use of us and we, there is no allusion to a Trinity or a Duality of Deities. Instead, symbolically at least, Yahweh challenged the peoples of distant lands to meet with him and his people Israel for a face to face encounter; a court session:
“Let US decide for once and for all time about these idols: Do they have power to do good, to do evil, or to predict the future? No. They are as empty wind” (paraphrase).
Yahweh, the one, true El has this power. He can predict, then make it come to pass. He can also bring salvation. Idols can do nothing.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,13:45) Frank In your 4paragraph the men lied because in Gen 1 :thenGod says LET US MAKE,,'
Is the US ,stands for God alone ?
Pierre
Pierre,It is not said in this study that Father Yahweh was alone when He Himself created, but that He alone and by Himself done the creating with no help from any other Deity. This is in fact what Scripture ACTUALLY teaches! There is no mention of any other Deity, or any of the malakim [“angels”] of the heavenly hosts participating in the ACTUAL creation of the heavens and the earth or anything that is in them.
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
Genesis 1:26,27
By Voy Wilks
8/31/98“TELL US”
Isaiah 41:21-26
By Voy Wilks
3/26/99What Paul is REALLY saying in Colossians 1:15-20
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.Ok. We now arrive at a primary “proof” passage used by Traditional and Kabbalistic Trinitarians. Some may wonder how it is possible to show these passages are not clearly showing Yeshua is God. Well, it is actually quite easy when the bias of Trinitarian translators is exposed and other, more legitimate renderings from Greek to English are considered. As with all deception, the first step is to remove bias from your mind – something all but impossible for Trinitarians. Once that is done it becomes a simple task of incorporating the passages – as we should with ALL passages of scripture – into the context in which they reside and then checking the original languages to see what they ACTUALLY say. It is relatively obvious the context (Col. 1:3, 1:19,20) was ignored by Trinitarian translators as they chose to render the Greek into a very biased pro-trinitarian meaning; however, a check of the Greek shows the context (which they ignored) is supported by other alternate renderings of the Greek. Scriptural and Hebraic context often jumps up to bite Trinitarians and is repeatedly proven to be their nemesis.
First, I will quote the same passages from 2 other versions, the New American Standard and the King James.
Colossians 1:15-20
15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
The New American Standard Bible, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1977.Colossians 1:15-20
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.My plan is to take each verse and present alternate renderings – where necessary – for crucial words within that verse and commentary regarding those renderings. The specific word or words being studied will be underlined and in bold. After doing this with each verse, I will then summarize the results. The information was obtained from one or more of several references; therefore, to simplify the presentation I will not clutter the comments with the titles of multiple references. Instead, I have provided a list of resources for those that wish to verify my study. All renderings are direct quotes from those references. Any explanatory comment I provide will be in parenthesis.
1. LIST OF REFERENCES: Ref. 1 – Enhanced Strong's Lexicon
2. Ref. 2 – New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words
3. Ref. 3 – New Strong's Guide to Bible Words
4. Ref. 4 – A Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament)
5. Ref. 5 – An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon
6. Ref. 6 – A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
7. Ref. 7 – A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Bases on Semantic DomainsColossians 1:15
Col. 1:15 – Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Image: Strong's No. 1504 – From the Greek word, eikon. Meanings – a likeness, statue, profile, representation, resemblance, pattern, portrait, image – as in a refection, image – as in the mind, a similitude (similar)
Firstborn: Strong's No. 4416 – From the Greek word, prototokos. Meanings – firstborn, birthright, pertaining to the inheritance rights of the firstborn, first-begotten, rights of firstborn.
The most obvious point noticed is how the term “image“, by it's very definition, shows clear distinction between the ORIGINAL and the IMAGE OF the original. Common sense dictates a thing and it's image are not the same. Your image – “as in a reflection” in a mirror – is NOT you! It is your “image” or “likeness”. There is not one single rendering for the Greek word eikon that suggest an ORIGINAL. Each and every rendering defines a “likeness” of one type or another, but NONE of them define an original. IF Yeshua is YHVH (God), why didn't Paul just say so? Paul's use of the term eikon, was undoubtedly intentional. IF Paul was trying to teach that Yeshua is God, he (here and in all his letters) did a terrible job choosing the proper terms. There are other Greek words that could have been used if Paul intended the meaning to be an “original” instead of a “resemblance”. Perhaps Trinitarians should take Paul at his word in this verse and stop trying to add to it meanings that are NOT intended.
Trinitarians consistently attempt to extract this verse (and many others) from the context of Scripture and force it to meet their limited and biased false teaching. I humbly put forth a request to those that are still deceived by Trinity promoters and feel the term rendered “image” is proof Yeshua is God. Please explain the following verse, which uses EXACTLY the same Greek word and is rendered the same.
1 Corinthians 11:7
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.Paul even goes further here, stating that MAN is the image AND GLORY of God! Wow! Does that mean I'm God, since I am a man? Of course not, and neither did Paul intend the term in Colossians to be twisted by Trinitarians into suggesting Yeshua is God. The same understanding we derive from Paul's use of the term in 1 Cor. 11:7 is what he intended us to apply in Colossians 1:15.
Regarding the term “firstborn”, let's look at other uses of “firstborn” in Scripture.
Exodus 4:22
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.Psalm 89:27
27 Also I will make him (David) My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.Jeremiah 31:9
9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image (eikon) of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.Revelation 1:5
5 and from Yeshua Messiah, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.Clearly the context of Scripture shows there are many “firstborn” spoken of in the Bible. Paul's reference here is NOT to some sort of preexistence, instead, he is referring to the fact that Yeshua, having been raised by his God, is the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD! Yeshua is the FIRST to be resurrected to immortality (Lazarus and others resurrected in Scripture subsequently died), thus giving all those that TRULY follow in his footsteps of faith and obedience hope that they will follow him into a resurrection of eternal life.
Colossians 1:16
Colossians 1:16 – For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
by: Strong's No. 1722 – From the Greek word, en. Meanings – in, at, on, by, about, after, against, almost, altogether, among, as, before, between, by all means, for sake of, because of, through, when, where, etc.
through: Strong's No. 1223 – From the Greek word, dia. Meanings – through, with, for, the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of, for the sake of, for this cause, on account of, because, because of for this reason, on this account, by occasion of, by, by the means of, for (cause), etc. NOTE: THIS OFTEN REFERS TO THE REASON FOR SOMETHING!
for: Strong's No. 1519 – From the Greek word, eis. Meanings – into, to, unto, for, in, on, toward, against, etc.
It is crucial to understand the various possible renderings of these three simple little words (en, dia, eis). The dark veil of deception casts by the great harlot through improper biased renderings of these words is incalculable. There are lots of passages in the Messianic writings (New Testament) where biased or possibly even intentional mistranslations has led many sincere students of Scripture to wrongly accept the mystery babylon man-God messiah and anti-torah (lawlessness) doctrines being promoted by traditional Christianity. It is essential that credible Hebrew and Greek lexicons or, at the very least, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance be used to verify English translations and also to realize that there are other possible English renderings that are just as legitimate and that may dramatically change the actual meaning of the passage.
It should be obvious from the many possible renderings of the 3 words shown, that this passage is very enticing to Trinitarians. By using “selective” translation, they can force this verse to say what they wish it to say. However, it could also be rendered:
Colossians 1:16 – For the sake[/U] of Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created because of/on account of Him and for/unto Him.
It isn't necessary for me to debate the “authorized” translations made by those indoctrinated with Trinitarian bias. The fact remains that this verse does NOT prove Yeshua to be the Creator except when biased translation forces such a meaning. At the very least, this verse in inconclusive since we cannot possibly know the intention of the original writer. Those that say otherwise are misrepresenting truth. I do not force my interpretation, and I hope they are also honest enough to not force theirs. You have the many renderings provided and can check for yourself if you wish. I pray you will not allow bias to “bias” your study.
What Paul is commenting on is how the One Creator YHVH created all things with the future Messiah and Messianic Kingdom in mind. ALL things were created with consideration to the final glorious outcome of the cosmic conflict between good and evil. “For the sake of” Messiah YHVH created “all things … that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.” “On account of” Messiah, YHVH created all things looking “unto” Yeshua's mission of obedience and reconciliation from which God's true desire to place mankind in a Paradise, where His eternal Torah (instructions) would be the Kingdom Constitution, would finally be realized. Please refer to the articles on preexistence for further insight.Here is another opinion regarding these verses from Sir Anthony Buzzard's book that Traditional and Kabbalistic Trinitarians hope you do not read, The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound. In one of many places where he comments on the Colossian passages, we find:
“Some have considered this passage sufficient evidence to overthrow all Paul said elsewhere about the Christian creed as belief in “one God, the Father.” Several points should be noted. The Trinitarian scholar, James Dunn, speaking of the above passage in Colossians 1:15-20, makes this crucial observation:
“We must grasp the fact that Paul was not seeking to win men to belief in a preexistent being. He did not have to establish the viability of speaking of preexistent wisdom. Such language was commonly used, common ground, and was no doubt familiar to most of his readers. Nor was he arguing that Yeshua was a particular preexistent being…What he was saying is that wisdom, whatever precisely that term meant for his readers, is now most fully expressed in Yeshua – Yeshua is the exhaustive embodiment of divine wisdom; all the divine fullness dwelt in him. The mistake which many make (unconsciously) is to turn Paul's argument around and make it point in the wrong direction. Because language which seems to envisage preexistent divine beings is strange to modern ears, it is easy to assume (by an illegitimate transfer of twentieth-century presuppositions to the first century) that this is why the language was used (to promote belief in preexistent divine intermediaries) and that Paul was attempting to identify Christ with or as such a being.”
We quote from Professor Dunn at length because of his important statement about the danger of reading Paul as though he must have been familiar with the much later decisions of the church councils. Paul should be read in his own Hebrew context. Dunn does not write as an anti-Trinitarian. But he finds no support for the Trinity in this passage. He continues:
“But Paul's talk was of course conditioned by the culture and cosmological presuppositions of his ow
n day. So he was not arguing for the existence of preexistent divine beings or for the existence of any particular divine being (in this verse)…And the meaning is, given the understanding of this language within Jewish monotheism, that Yeshua is to be seen as the wise activity of God, as the wisdom and embodiment of God's wisdom more fully than any previous manifestation of the same wisdom whether in creation of in covenant.”Dunn's analysis is sufficient to show that this passage does not establish belief in a Deity of two or three persons. Several further points should be made. Paul specifically calls Yeshua the first-born of all creation. Taken in its natural sense, the expression first-born excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being. To be born requires a beginning. God's first-born is “the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalms 89:27). Paul employs a well-known Messianic title. Yeshua, in the mind of Paul, is not God, but the Messiah – and there is an enormous difference.
According to many translations, Paul says that “all things were created by him (the Messiah).” The prepositions in Colossians 1:16 need to be translated exactly (as seen in the marginal versions of standard Bibles). What Paul actually wrote was that “all things” – in this case “thrones, dominions, rulers and authorities” – were created “in” Yeshua, “through” him and “for” him. It was not that Yeshua was the creator in the opening verse of Genesis, but that he was the center of God's cosmic hierarchy. All authorities were to be subjected to the Son who would finally hand all back to his Father, the principal to whom he owed allegiance, that “God (the Father) might be all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28). It would be strange to say that Yeshua created all things for himself (Col. 1:16). The point rather is that God made all things with Yeshua in mind and thus for him. As first-born, Yeshua is the heir to the universe which God brought into existence with His promised Son as the occasion for the creation. It is quite possible that Paul is thinking in this passage of the new creation initiated by the resurrection of Yeshua, who is the first-born from the dead (Col. 1:18). In this case there is no direct reference to the Genesis creation and thus no hint of preexistence. As always context (the Trinitarian's hated enemy) is an important factor in interpretation. Paul's focus is this passage is on the “inheritance,” (future) “kingdom,” and “authorities” (Col. 1:12, 13, 16). This strongly suggests that he has in mind the new creation in Messiah who is the Messianic king of God's new order.
Expressions which, as Dunn says, sound remote to twentieth-century ears and therefore need especially careful handling, provide no basis for belief in Yeshua's preexistence over all that has been created, visible of invisible, in heaven or on earth, either thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities. Yeshua was the starting point (in the sense of the goal) of all God's creative activity – the key to God's entire purpose as well as the embodiment of God's wisdom. The Messiah, however, was not an eternal being but a human person to be revealed at his appointed time.”
And now continuing with our discussion …
Colossians 1:17
Colossians 1:17 – And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (stand, hold together).
before: Strong's No. 4253 – From the Greek word, pro. Meanings – before, above, superior to, or ever
in: Strong's No. 1722 – From the Greek word, en. Meanings – in, at, on, by, about, after, against, almost, altogether, among, as, before, between, by all means, for sake of, because of, through, when, where, etc.
consist: Strong's No. 4921 – From the Greek word(s), sunistao or strengthened, sunistano, or sunistemi. Meanings – strengthened, to place together, to set in the same place, to bring or band together, to stand with (or near), to set one with another, by way of presenting or introducing him, to comprehend, to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing, to show, prove, establish, exhibit, to put together, unite parts into one whole, to be composed of, consist
Once again the understanding of the verse is largely determined by how the translators decided to render these “harmless” little words. It should be increasingly obvious how even the smallest, most innocuous words (in, by, for, and, but, etc.) can drastically alter a verse's implied meaning. It is for this reason you should utilize Hebrew and Greek Lexicons and Dictionaries from which you can determine other legitimate renderings. The New Testament is filled with verses that hinge upon these tiny words. If the context of local and global Scripture is accounted for, this verse can be shown to be saying:
“And He is above (superior to) all things, and in (through, because of, for the sake of) him all things stand/consist/are established/are strengthened.”
Or, to be less cluttered,
“And He is superior to all things, and because of him all things are firmly established.”
Colossians 1:18
Colossians 1:18 – And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
We have already discussed the term, “firstborn.” As stated then, the use of the term proves he had a beginning (was created) since anything “born”, whether first or last, must still begin somewhere. This fact alone proves Yeshua cannot be God. We also showed how the term most likely refers to Yeshua's being the “firstborn” of the resurrection. Since Yeshua is the very first man to be resurrected to immortality, that makes him THE “firstborn from the dead.”
Colossians 1:19,20
Colossians 1:19,20 – 19 For it pleased the Father that in (on, among, because of) Him all the fullness (completeness, fullness of time, fullness of Torah) should dwell, 20 and by (through, by reason of) Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by (through, by reason of) Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
in: Strong's No. 1722 – From the Greek word, en. Meanings – in, at, on, by, about, after, against, almost, altogether, among, as, before, between, by all means, for sake of, because of, through, when, where, etc.
fullness: Strong's No. 4138 – From the Greek word, pleroma. Meanings – completeness, repletion, what fills, what is filled, a fulfilling, a keeping, abundance, completeness or fullness of time, fulfillment, etc.
by: Strong's No. 1223 – From the Greek word, dia. Meanings – through, the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of, because of for this reason, on this account, by occasion of, by, for (cause), etc. NOTE: This often refers to the reason for something!
Here again we have the context of scripture destroying the Trinity argument. To save time I placed alternate renderings in parenthesis in the verse. Aren't these verses obvious even with differing renderings of the Greek word? I submit to you that it is not possible for an honest reader to consider these verses as supportive of Yeshua's deity. Even if the traditionally biased renderings are accepted for verses 19 and 20,
1. There is obvious distinction between the one pleased (the Father) and the one in whom He is pleased (Yeshua).
2. There is obvious distinction between the one being reconciled with (the Father) and the one through whom the reconciliation is accomplished (Yeshua).It is an unfounded assumption to force the term “fullness” to refer to deity. There is nothing here that supports that assumption. The “fullness” could just as well refer to Yeshua's fullness in keeping Torah (sinless man), or fullness in being the embodiment of all YHVH wishes man to be, or fullness in the sense of being the perfectly complete man. Regardless, the presence of the distinction between YHVH and Yeshua prohibits equating them as being one and the same being!
Conclusion Regarding Colossians 1:15-20
We have looked in detail at these passages. I realize it is difficult for hardcore Trinitarians to accept the facts presented since other doctrines often force them to believe Yeshua is YHVH. Nevertheless, I have presented facts along with resources you may check to verify my presentation. These facts destroy the claim by many that these passages “prove” Yeshua's deity. What they prove is that Yeshua, as the perfectly obedient servant of his God and yours, is worthy of our praise. They prove that Yeshua is the perfect embodiment of all our Creator wishes us to be. They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. A foundational component of that likeness is belief in the ONE God that Yeshua believed in and worshipped and the recognition of the Shema (Deut. 6:4-9, Mt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31) – the “foremost commandment.” We see Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead – the first to be resurrected to life everlasting – thus being preeminent in all things. We see Yeshua as worthy to receive all glory, honor, and power FROM the Father. Yeshua is, in fact, the ONLY man that actually deserves this, since he is the only MAN to have ever lived a sinless life. Finally, we see that through Yeshua we are reconciled to the Father IF we endure to the end in faithful obedience and trust.
Hey Frank,
Since you are too scared to address our points, why not invite Voy Wilks to HN, so he can defend what he wrote? Because it seems that you are not capable of doing so.
frank
Quote Conclusion Regarding Colossians 1:15-20 We have looked in detail at these passages. I realize it is difficult for hardcore Trinitarians to accept the facts presented since other doctrines often force them to believe Yeshua is YHVH. Nevertheless, I have presented facts along with resources you may check to verify my presentation. These facts destroy the claim by many that these passages “prove” Yeshua's deity. What they prove is that Yeshua, as the perfectly obedient servant of his God and yours, is worthy of our praise. They prove that Yeshua is the perfect embodiment of all our Creator wishes us to be. They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. A foundational component of that likeness is belief in the ONE God that Yeshua believed in and worshipped and the recognition of the Shema (Deut. 6:4-9, Mt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31) – the “foremost commandment.” We see Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead – the first to be resurrected to life everlasting – thus being preeminent in all things. We see Yeshua as worthy to receive all glory, honor, and power FROM the Father. Yeshua is, in fact, the ONLY man that actually deserves this, since he is the only MAN to have ever lived a sinless life. Finally, we see that through Yeshua we are reconciled to the Father IF we endure to the end in faithful obedience and trust.
so would that mean that God almighty his humble, submissive,all giving,accepting victimization,?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2012,10:53) frank Quote Conclusion Regarding Colossians 1:15-20 We have looked in detail at these passages. I realize it is difficult for hardcore Trinitarians to accept the facts presented since other doctrines often force them to believe Yeshua is YHVH. Nevertheless, I have presented facts along with resources you may check to verify my presentation. These facts destroy the claim by many that these passages “prove” Yeshua's deity. What they prove is that Yeshua, as the perfectly obedient servant of his God and yours, is worthy of our praise. They prove that Yeshua is the perfect embodiment of all our Creator wishes us to be. They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. A foundational component of that likeness is belief in the ONE God that Yeshua believed in and worshipped and the recognition of the Shema (Deut. 6:4-9, Mt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31) – the “foremost commandment.” We see Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead – the first to be resurrected to life everlasting – thus being preeminent in all things. We see Yeshua as worthy to receive all glory, honor, and power FROM the Father. Yeshua is, in fact, the ONLY man that actually deserves this, since he is the only MAN to have ever lived a sinless life. Finally, we see that through Yeshua we are reconciled to the Father IF we endure to the end in faithful obedience and trust.
so would that mean that God almighty his humble, submissive,all giving,accepting victimization,?
Pierre
Pierre,Who said that? Certainly not I!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,10:51) Hey Frank, Since you are too scared to address our points, why not invite Voy Wilks to HN, so he can defend what he wrote? Because it seems that you are not capable of doing so.
Mike,FYI, Voy Wilks is dead!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,12:53) So where does that leave us, Frank? Because YOU sure can't defend the things this dead man wrote.
Mike,It leaves me not responding to your foolishness any longer and leaves you talking to the hand!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 20 2012,19:23) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2012,10:53) frank Quote Conclusion Regarding Colossians 1:15-20 We have looked in detail at these passages. I realize it is difficult for hardcore Trinitarians to accept the facts presented since other doctrines often force them to believe Yeshua is YHVH. Nevertheless, I have presented facts along with resources you may check to verify my presentation. These facts destroy the claim by many that these passages “prove” Yeshua's deity. What they prove is that Yeshua, as the perfectly obedient servant of his God and yours, is worthy of our praise. They prove that Yeshua is the perfect embodiment of all our Creator wishes us to be. They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. A foundational component of that likeness is belief in the ONE God that Yeshua believed in and worshipped and the recognition of the Shema (Deut. 6:4-9, Mt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31) – the “foremost commandment.” We see Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead – the first to be resurrected to life everlasting – thus being preeminent in all things. We see Yeshua as worthy to receive all glory, honor, and power FROM the Father. Yeshua is, in fact, the ONLY man that actually deserves this, since he is the only MAN to have ever lived a sinless life. Finally, we see that through Yeshua we are reconciled to the Father IF we endure to the end in faithful obedience and trust.
so would that mean that God almighty his humble, submissive,all giving,accepting victimization,?
Pierre
Pierre,Who said that? Certainly not I!
frankQuote They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. you see that more explanation is required to set Gods character or Jesus image ,right ,if as scriptures says he is the Image and not an image ,so that it can also be perceived in God,
so if we say God is spirit then Christ would be spirit as well ,
if he is the only son of God that has been begotten by God ,this could rease the question that he is the only one that God created directly,and for those reasons he his that image,just has Adam was created the first human but not the first creation as it is the case with Christ ,now let see what John says;Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.so this would mean born of the spirit of God through Christ,
Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him knowncan you see some of the reflection of that image ??
GRACE,BLESSINGS,AND MADE HIS FATHER KNOWN,(AND THE FATHER MADE HIS SON KNOWN)
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
here are more of those characteristics that the image reflects
what the son did was to represent the father to men and made him known.
so God as qualities that only him has ,and that no creation of is has,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2012,13:11) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 20 2012,19:23) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2012,10:53) frank Quote Conclusion Regarding Colossians 1:15-20 We have looked in detail at these passages. I realize it is difficult for hardcore Trinitarians to accept the facts presented since other doctrines often force them to believe Yeshua is YHVH. Nevertheless, I have presented facts along with resources you may check to verify my presentation. These facts destroy the claim by many that these passages “prove” Yeshua's deity. What they prove is that Yeshua, as the perfectly obedient servant of his God and yours, is worthy of our praise. They prove that Yeshua is the perfect embodiment of all our Creator wishes us to be. They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. A foundational component of that likeness is belief in the ONE God that Yeshua believed in and worshipped and the recognition of the Shema (Deut. 6:4-9, Mt 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-31) – the “foremost commandment.” We see Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead – the first to be resurrected to life everlasting – thus being preeminent in all things. We see Yeshua as worthy to receive all glory, honor, and power FROM the Father. Yeshua is, in fact, the ONLY man that actually deserves this, since he is the only MAN to have ever lived a sinless life. Finally, we see that through Yeshua we are reconciled to the Father IF we endure to the end in faithful obedience and trust.
so would that mean that God almighty his humble, submissive,all giving,accepting victimization,?
Pierre
Pierre,Who said that? Certainly not I!
frankQuote They prove Yeshua is the “image” of God in the sense that in him (Yeshua) we see the character of the Creator and the desire He has for us to become like Yeshua. Furthermore, since we all are created in God's image, Yeshua's “image” is the perfect example of how we should strive to adopt his “likeness” in our lives. you see that more explanation is required to set Gods character or Jesus image ,right ,if as scriptures says he is the Image and not an image ,so that it can also be perceived in God,
so if we say God is spirit then Christ would be spirit as well ,
if he is the only son of God that has been begotten by God ,this could rease the question that he is the only one that God created directly,and for those reasons he his that image,just has Adam was created the first human but not the first creation as it is the case with Christ ,now let see what John says;Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.so this would mean born of the spirit of God through Christ,
Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him knowncan you see some of the reflection of that image ??
GRACE,BLESSINGS,AND MADE HIS FATHER KNOWN,(AND THE FATHER MADE HIS SON KNOWN)
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
here are more of those characteristics that the image reflects
what the son did was to represent the father to men and made him known.
so God as qualities that only him has ,and that no creation of is has,
Pierre
Pierre,I guess that leaves you talking to the hand also, since you do not make the least bit of sense!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 20 2012,20:37) 
FrankIs this your best picture ?
What is it that went wrong ?
Can this be undone ?
Best wishes
Pierre
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 19 2012,20:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,12:53) So where does that leave us, Frank? Because YOU sure can't defend the things this dead man wrote.
Mike,It leaves me not responding to your foolishness any longer and leaves you talking to the hand!
You know, Frank – there is someone else on this site just like you, who just keeps posting unscriptural nonsense without even trying to defend his nonsense.I will deal with you the same way I've decided to deal with him:
Jesus is the Word of God in Rev 19:13……………FACT!
Jesus is the same Word of God in John 1:1……………..FACT!
Jesus is the same Word of God who became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten Son – which of course he is – in John 1:14………………..FACT!
All things in heaven and on earth are said to have been created through the Word of God (John 1:3), the Son of God (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:15), and our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6)…………………FACT!
They are all the same person, who had glory alongside his God before the world was created by his God through him……………FACT!
And the best part is, that you can't refute one single thing I've just posted. (The pathetic part is that you won't even TRY!
)Frank, you are ignorant about the teachings of the scriptures when it comes to Jesus Christ. You ignore scriptures such as:
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: he was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.Frank, I'll bet you don't even wonder how someone who never had been anything BUT flesh could be “manifested in the flesh”, do you? Or how someone who has never been anything BUT a human being could be said to have emptied himself and be made in the likeness of a human being?
But then you really don't care what the scriptures have to say about it, do you? You're happy with your false belief and just want to be left alone with it, right?
Okay. I'll leave you alone.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,21:01) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 20 2012,20:37)
FrankIs this your best picture ?
What is it that went wrong ?
Can this be undone ?
Best wishes
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,01:35) Hi T8, It is like reading the many corrupted versions of the bible,
sure can get truth out of them, but you can also learn error.YHVH wants us to come out of confusion.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Yes there is degradation in some form in all translations for differing reasons. KJV suffers from this given that it is an old translation and didn't make use of the oldest manuscripts as they were not available in the day. As you say though, you can extract truth from them, but you have to watch or double check with other translations to see if there is a comparative error.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 20 2012,13:37)
OK Frank. Now make this applicable to yourself by hearing these words.Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and took on flesh, humbled himself, died, and was resurrected to the right hand of God and in the glory that he had with God before the world began.
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