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Quote (942767 @ Jan. 09 2012,14:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2012,12:59) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 08 2012,18:11) Hi Mike: What God had spoken pertaining to Jesus became a reality, and Jesus began to exist in the flesh.
Okay Marty,Let's try out your theory with the scripture:
1 In the beginning was WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS, and WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS was with God, and WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS was God. 2 He (
) was with God in the beginning. 14 WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS became flesh and made
his(WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS') dwelling among us. We have seenhis(WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS') glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.15 John testifies concerning
him(WHAT GOD HAD SPOKEN PERTAINING TO JESUS). He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”Does that sound about right, Marty? Show me where I've gone off track, please.
Hi Mike:In the beginning was the Logos which is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and what God had spoken pertaining to Jesus was with God (this embodies an idea or a plan) and the Logos(what God has spoken relative to Jesus was God).
The Logos is God in that God is love, and it is through His giving us His Son that his love in made manifest to humanity.
Quote Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. He was with God in the beginning in the sense that it was God's plan to reconcile the world unto Himself through Jesus, and he was foreordained.
Quote 1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Quote Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And the Logos (what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus was made flesh)(Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and was born into this world) and (we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.
Quote Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. This verse needs no explanation relative to what I have stated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty……….You have presented it absolutely clear and right , Jesus was in the beginning in the Plan and WILL of GOD, And that is exactly what John was saying , The Logos ” Word of GOD” came to be true in the Flesh Man Jesus, Yes GOD'S word became true (IN Prophesy) through Christ Jesus, when Jesus came into existence through Mary and came to be the First begotten (born) son of GOD from Mankind. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2012,08:08) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 07 2012,14:56) No, I do not believe that Yahweh's word is Yahshua! Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word!
And how then do you explain 1:14, Frank? Did Jehovah's word BECOME flesh? How does that work?Did Jehovah's word DWELL among men? What does that mean?
Did Jehovah's word have the glory of God's only begotten? What would that mean?
Mike,Father Yahweh's word became flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua just as Father Yahweh was manifest (MADE KNOWN, REVEALED) in the flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) his son Yahshua. Just as Yahshua is not LITERALLY his and our Father Yahweh, he is also not LITERALLY his and our Father Yahweh's word. Yahshua said:
“If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said, “Master, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Yahshua answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (Yahchanan [John] 14:7-9).
Just as Phillip and the others seen (not LITERALLY with their eyes, but perceived and understood) Father Yahweh THROUGH his son Yahshua, they also seen (not LITERALLY with their eyes, but perceived and understood Father Yahweh's word THROUGH (BY WAY OF) his son Yahshua.
You are not presenting your false reasoning as a whole in your post individually in that you erroneously believe that Yahshua was LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Him that pre-existed with Him in the beginning. You also falsely reason that since Yahshua is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation that he is LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word. Yahshua is not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word, but is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Yahshua clearly made it known that the words that he spoke were not his own, but those of his and our Father Yahweh Who is in Heaven. Yahshua said:
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say” (Yahchanan [John] 12:48-50).
Father Yahweh and His word dwelled among men THROUGH (BY WAY OF) his son Yahshua. Father Yahweh's word was and is not His son. Yahshua is Father Yahweh's son in whom He made Himself and His word known.
Mike,
Who do you believe the following verse speaks of or pertain to:
“The days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land (Yeremyah 23:5.
Now, who do you believe the following verse speaks of or pertain to:
THIS IS THE NAME BY WHICH HE WILL BE CALLED: Yahweh Our Righteousness (Yeremyah 23:6b).
Whoever you believe the last part of this verse in speaking of or who it pertains to, do you believe that they a LITERALLY “Yahweh or Righteousness”? After you have answered this, then it is when I will present a study here that thoroughly explains who this is speaking of or pertains to.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 10 2012,07:26) Mike, Who do you believe the following verse speaks of or pertain to:
“The days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land (Yeremyah 23:5.
Now, who do you believe the following verse speaks of or pertain to:
THIS IS THE NAME BY WHICH HE WILL BE CALLED: Yahweh Our Righteousness (Yeremyah 23:6b).
Whoever you believe the last part of this verse in speaking of or who it pertains to, do you believe that they a LITERALLY “Yahweh or Righteousness”? After you have answered this, then it is when I will present a study here that thoroughly explains who this is speaking of or pertains to.
CORRECTIONS: *pertains *”Yahweh OUR Righteousness”Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 08 2012,11:15) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 08 2012,14:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2012,07:34) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 07 2012,12:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2012,05:06) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 06 2012,17:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 07 2012,09:49) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 06 2012,10:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2012,12:11) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,13:45) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:00) Yahshua's title was the word of Yahweh simply because he was the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
By golly, I think you've got it Frank!
Now tell me why that title coudn't have been used of him in the gospel by the same author?
We know the “Word” in John 1 refers to “the Word of God”, right? (Because who else's word would John be talking about?)
So if John called Jesus by what you ADMIT is Jesus' title in Rev 19:13, then why in the world would it be so hard for you to believe the same author called Jesus by the same title in his other book?
Mike,Yahchanan [John] does not say “… and the word was Jesus.”
Nor does he say the rider of the white horse was “Jesus”; yet you know and admit that it is, right?Go on………………
Mike,As you well know, I believe that Father Yahweh's word is in fact Father Yahweh's word and that Yahchanan was not giving reference to Father Yahweh's word as a separate being that pre-existed with Him in the beginning.
Yes Frank,We all know what you believe. I'm asking you if “John didn't say the name Jesus” is an adequate reason for dismissing Jesus as the Word in John 1:1, 14.
John didn't say the name Jesus in Rev 19:13, and yet you know it speaks of Jesus, right? So why would that be your reason for dismissing Jesus from being the Word of God in the gospel written by the same author?
Do you at least see how your “John didn't SAY Jesus, so there!” argument doesn't really hold up under scrutiny?
Mike,Simply because Yahchanan never said “Jesus is the word.” as you erroneously believe and teach.
Are we just going around in circles here, Frank?John also didn't say “Jesus is the Word” in Rev 19:13, yet you KNOW he was talking about the Word being Jesus, right?
No, Yahchanan NEVER is recorded as saying “Jesus IS the Word (personified with capitalization)!”
Yet you believe that the word of god in Rev 19:13 IS jesus, right? Even DESPITE the fact that John didn't specifically write “The word of god is jesus” in Rev 19:13, YOU STILL KNOW HE SPEAKS OF JESUS, RIGHT?(There, I uncapitalized all the personified words for you, despite the fact that in the Greek texts, all letters were capped.)
Frank, here is the bottom line:
FRANK BELIEVES JOHN SPEAKS OF JESUS IN REV 19:13, DESPITE THE FACT THAT JOHN DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY MENTION THAT JESUS IS THE ONE CALLED THE WORD OF GOD IN THAT VERSE.
BUT……………FRANK WILL NONSENSICALLY THEN TRY TO USE THAT VERY ARGUMENT TO EXCLUDE JESUS FROM BEING THE SAME WORD OF GOD MENTIONED IN JOHN 1:1 AND 14 – DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE WORD MENTIONED THERE IS THE ONE WHO BECAME FLESH, DWELLED AMONG US, AND HAD THE GLORY OF GOD'S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
Now Frank, correct me if what I've stated above is wrong. And show me which exact words I posted that are wrong.
Mike,No, I do not believe that Yahweh's word is Yahshua! Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word! Again, Yahchanan NEVER SAID “Jesus IS the Word!” NOWHERE in ANY TRANSLATION of Scripture will you ever find Yahchanan making such a false, foolish, deceptive, and demonic statement as this!
frankQuote No, I do not believe that Yahweh's word is Yahshua! is it not this type of believes that separate us all ,the big “I”
“the big ME” God is secondary to the big “I” and “ME”this is how the Pharisees where talking to Christ ;WE know”WE believe ,WE have Moses,WE have Abraham for father WE,WE, the big WE” where God is reduced to a stand buyer ,
how many people did they deceived
? manyPierre
Pierre,Count yourself among those MANY!
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 08 2012,21:18) Hi Mike: In the beginning was the Logos which is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and what God had spoken pertaining to Jesus was with God (this embodies an idea or a plan) and the Logos(what God has spoken relative to Jesus was God).
The Logos is God in that God is love, and it is through His giving us His Son that his love in made manifest to humanity.
Okay Marty,Then we can equally say the same about John, Peter, and Paul, right?
Because they were foreordained before the founding of the world, right? And it was the logos of God that foreordained them, right? And they also made God's love manifest to humanity, right?
So really, it could be said, “In the beginning was Peter, and Peter was with God, and Peter was God”, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,08:53) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 08 2012,21:18) Hi Mike: In the beginning was the Logos which is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and what God had spoken pertaining to Jesus was with God (this embodies an idea or a plan) and the Logos(what God has spoken relative to Jesus was God).
The Logos is God in that God is love, and it is through His giving us His Son that his love in made manifest to humanity.
Okay Marty,Then we can equally say the same about John, Peter, and Paul, right?
Because they were foreordained before the founding of the world, right? And it was the logos of God that foreordained them, right? And they also made God's love manifest to humanity, right?
So really, it could be said, “In the beginning was Peter, and Peter was with God, and Peter was God”, right?
Marty,Can you believe that Mike believes he is actually making sense here?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:07) You are not presenting your false reasoning as a whole in your post individually in that you erroneously believe that Yahshua was LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Him that pre-existed with Him in the beginning.
But Jesus DID exist as a separate being apart from Jehovah in the beginning, Frank. That's why Jesus asked to be returned to the glory HE HAD with his God before the world was created. (John 17:5)Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:07) You also falsely reason that since Yahshua is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation that he is LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word.
No Frank. I don't believe that Jesus is the spoken words of Jehovah. I believe that Jesus is the main SPOKESPERSON, not for “our Father Yahweh's word” as you claim, but for our Father Himself.Frank, did you know that the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who was called “The Word of the King”? Please comment on this fact.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:07) Father Yahweh and His word dwelled among men THROUGH (BY WAY OF) his son Yahshua.
No. The Father is NEVER said to have “dwelled among men” at all. The Father's dwelling place is heaven, where He remained the entire time Jesus was on earth. In the future (Rev 21:3), God WILL dwell among men. But He never has done so in the past – at least not according to any scripture I'm aware of.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:26) Mike, Who do you believe the following verse speaks of or pertain to:
“The days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land (Yeremyah 23:5.
Jesus.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:26) Now, who do you believe the following verse speaks of or pertain to: THIS IS THE NAME BY WHICH HE WILL BE CALLED: Yahweh Our Righteousness (Yeremyah 23:6b).
The verse refers to Jesus, but your translation is incorrect. The name by which Jesus would be called is “Yahweh IS Our Righteousness”, not “Yahweh, our Righteousness”.In fact, Israel is also called by this same title in scripture.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:26) Whoever you believe the last part of this verse in speaking of or who it pertains to, do you believe that they are LITERALLY “Yahweh or Righteousness”?
No to both counts. It is similar to the name “Jesus”, which means “Jehovah is Salvation”. The MANY people who have borne this name in history were neither “Jehovah Himself”, nor “Salvation”.frank
Quote Pierre, Count yourself among those MANY!
if I deceive you please be a upright man and tell me how did I deceived you
if you do not know how i did it ,then you should keep your lips close ,and so not let demons talk come out of it ,so I will looking forward to your respond,
my poor English,will be largely compensate with the truth I speak,
Pierre
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,16:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,08:53) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 08 2012,21:18) Hi Mike: In the beginning was the Logos which is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and what God had spoken pertaining to Jesus was with God (this embodies an idea or a plan) and the Logos(what God has spoken relative to Jesus was God).
The Logos is God in that God is love, and it is through His giving us His Son that his love in made manifest to humanity.
Okay Marty,Then we can equally say the same about John, Peter, and Paul, right?
Because they were foreordained before the founding of the world, right? And it was the logos of God that foreordained them, right? And they also made God's love manifest to humanity, right?
So really, it could be said, “In the beginning was Peter, and Peter was with God, and Peter was God”, right?
Marty,Can you believe that Mike believes he is actually making sense here?
Frank,It is Marty's and Gene's contention that Jesus pre-existed as a “thought in God's head” in that he was foreordained before the founding of the world.
If that is the case, then wouldn't the ones God foreknew, who are mentioned in Romans 8:29, also be able to say they were “with” God in the beginning?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,09:25) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,16:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,08:53) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 08 2012,21:18) Hi Mike: In the beginning was the Logos which is what God has spoken pertaining to Jesus, and what God had spoken pertaining to Jesus was with God (this embodies an idea or a plan) and the Logos(what God has spoken relative to Jesus was God).
The Logos is God in that God is love, and it is through His giving us His Son that his love in made manifest to humanity.
Okay Marty,Then we can equally say the same about John, Peter, and Paul, right?
Because they were foreordained before the founding of the world, right? And it was the logos of God that foreordained them, right? And they also made God's love manifest to humanity, right?
So really, it could be said, “In the beginning was Peter, and Peter was with God, and Peter was God”, right?
Marty,Can you believe that Mike believes he is actually making sense here?
Frank,It is Marty's and Gene's contention that Jesus pre-existed as a “thought in God's head” in that he was foreordained before the founding of the world.
If that is the case, then wouldn't the ones God foreknew, who are mentioned in Romans 8:29, also be able to say they were “with” God in the beginning?
Mi8ke,Father Yahweh's word was with Him. Father Yahweh's word was not separate being that was with Him in the beginning.
So Frank,
Do you agree with Marty's and Gene's contention that Jesus pre-existed as a “thought in God's head”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,09:09) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:07) You are not presenting your false reasoning as a whole in your post individually in that you erroneously believe that Yahshua was LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Him that pre-existed with Him in the beginning.
But Jesus DID exist as a separate being apart from Jehovah in the beginning, Frank. That's why Jesus asked to be returned to the glory HE HAD with his God before the world was created. (John 17:5)Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:07) You also falsely reason that since Yahshua is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation that he is LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word.
No Frank. I don't believe that Jesus is the spoken words of Jehovah. I believe that Jesus is the main SPOKESPERSON, not for “our Father Yahweh's word” as you claim, but for our Father Himself.Frank, did you know that the King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who was called “The Word of the King”? Please comment on this fact.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,14:07) Father Yahweh and His word dwelled among men THROUGH (BY WAY OF) his son Yahshua.
No. The Father is NEVER said to have “dwelled among men” at all. The Father's dwelling place is heaven, where He remained the entire time Jesus was on earth. In the future (Rev 21:3), God WILL dwell among men. But He never has done so in the past – at least not according to any scripture I'm aware of.
Mike,No, Yahshua DID NOT exist as a separate being apart from his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. When Yahshua said to his and our Father Yahweh Who is in Heaven …
“And now, Father, esteem me in your presence with the esteem I had with you before the world began”
… he was not speaking of a pre-existence that he had with Father Yahweh before the world began, but was speaking of the esteem that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began.
Father Yahweh does not LITERALLY dwell in or with men. Yahweh dwells in and with men in spirit. Note that Yahshua said that Father Yahweh dwells in him when he was here on Earth:
Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER DWELLS IN ME, he does the work (Yahchanan/ [John] 14:10).
Father Yahweh did not LITERALLY dwell in his son Yahshua. In other words, Father Yahweh was not ACTUALLY or LITERALLY inside Yahshua's body, but was ACTUALLY and LITERALLY in Heaven as he is recorded as saying on many occasions.
Yahweh LITERALLY was not with His son Yahshua when he was here on earth. When one tells another “Yahweh (“God”) be with you!” or they believe Yahweh is with them, they are not LITERALLY meaning that Father Yahweh is walking with them here on earth in a LITERAL sense. Following are two verses from Scripture showing Yahweh being FIGURATIVELY and SPIRITUALLY with His people HERE ON EARTH:
This says Yahweh of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Yahudah, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] Yahweh [is] WITH you (Zecharyah 8:23).
[Is] not Yahweh your Almighty One WITH you? and has He [not] given you rest on every side? for He has given the inhabitants of the land into my hand; and the land is subdued before Yahweh, and before his people (1 Chronicles 22:18).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,10:54) So Frank, Do you agree with Marty's and Gene's contention that Jesus pre-existed as a “thought in God's head”?
Mike,You know full well that I do, since I have made this known a number of times here in this forum. But, of course, you do not see or hear as usual, even though you do have eyes and ears!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,17:55) Father Yahweh does not LITERALLY dwell in or with men. Yahweh dwells in and with men in spirit. Note that Yahshua said that Father Yahweh dwells in him when he was here on Earth: Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER DWELLS IN ME, he does the work (Yahchanan/ [John] 14:10).
Father Yahweh did not LITERALLY dwell in his son Yahshua. In other words, Father Yahweh was not ACTUALLY or LITERALLY inside Yahshua's body, but was ACTUALLY and LITERALLY in Heaven as he is recorded as saying on many occasions.
Yahweh LITERALLY was not with His son Yahshua when he was here on earth. When one tells another “Yahweh (“God”) be with you!” or they believe Yahweh is with them, they are not LITERALLY meaning that Father Yahweh is walking with them here on earth in a LITERAL sense. Following are two verses from Scripture showing Yahweh being FIGURATIVELY and SPIRITUALLY with His people HERE ON EARTH:
This says Yahweh of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Yahudah, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] Yahweh [is] WITH you (Zecharyah 8:23).
[Is] not Yahweh your Almighty One WITH you? and has He [not] given you rest on every side? for He has given the inhabitants of the land into my hand; and the land is subdued before Yahweh, and before his people (1 Chronicles 22:18).
With these words, I agree 100%, Frank. I have been trying to tell this to Gene for over two years now. I have listed MANY scriptures where Jehovah says, in effect, “Don't worry, for I will be with you”. I have typed until my fingers were sore trying to get certain people here to understand that Jehovah was NOT LITERALLY right there next to the person to whom He said those words. Nor was He ever LITERALLY inside the flesh body of Jesus or anyone else.You know what this means, Frank? You have finally posted something that is scripturally and logically accurate! Hi five!
(Just kidding, I also have agreed with your posts distinguishing Jesus from his God.)
BUT…………………
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,17:55) he was not speaking of a pre-existence that he had with Father Yahweh before the world began, but was speaking of the esteem that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began.
How exactly does a non-existent person have glory with God? And what does it mean when this person, who now DOES exist, asks to be returned to that former glory?All that Yahshua spoke to the people he spoke to them in parables or illustrations, FIGURATIVELY and not LITERALLY.
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isayah: “'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,11:07) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,17:55) Father Yahweh does not LITERALLY dwell in or with men. Yahweh dwells in and with men in spirit. Note that Yahshua said that Father Yahweh dwells in him when he was here on Earth: Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER DWELLS IN ME, he does the work (Yahchanan/ [John] 14:10).
Father Yahweh did not LITERALLY dwell in his son Yahshua. In other words, Father Yahweh was not ACTUALLY or LITERALLY inside Yahshua's body, but was ACTUALLY and LITERALLY in Heaven as he is recorded as saying on many occasions.
Yahweh LITERALLY was not with His son Yahshua when he was here on earth. When one tells another “Yahweh (“God”) be with you!” or they believe Yahweh is with them, they are not LITERALLY meaning that Father Yahweh is walking with them here on earth in a LITERAL sense. Following are two verses from Scripture showing Yahweh being FIGURATIVELY and SPIRITUALLY with His people HERE ON EARTH:
This says Yahweh of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Yahudah, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] Yahweh [is] WITH you (Zecharyah 8:23).
[Is] not Yahweh your Almighty One WITH you? and has He [not] given you rest on every side? for He has given the inhabitants of the land into my hand; and the land is subdued before Yahweh, and before his people (1 Chronicles 22:18).
With these words, I agree 100%, Frank. I have been trying to tell this to Gene for over two years now. I have listed MANY scriptures where Jehovah says, in effect, “Don't worry, for I will be with you”. I have typed until my fingers were sore trying to get certain people here to understand that Jehovah was NOT LITERALLY right there next to the person to whom He said those words. Nor was He ever LITERALLY inside the flesh body of Jesus or anyone else.You know what this means, Frank? You have finally posted something that is scripturally and logically accurate! Hi five!
(Just kidding, I also have agreed with your posts distinguishing Jesus from his God.)
BUT…………………
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,17:55) he was not speaking of a pre-existence that he had with Father Yahweh before the world began, but was speaking of the esteem that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began.
How exactly does a non-existent person have glory with God? And what does it mean when this person, who now DOES exist, asks to be returned to that former glory?
Mike,Do you not believe that one can have esteem for his own son (daughter, children) before they are even born or come into existence?
This would certainly be true if one knew beforehand that their son (daughter, children) would be righteous!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,17:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,10:54) So Frank, Do you agree with Marty's and Gene's contention that Jesus pre-existed as a “thought in God's head”?
Mike,You know full well that I do………
Then couldn't Peter have said, “I was with God in the beginning……………as a thought in His head“?In fact, can't ANYONE say that about themselves or about anyone else who ever existed?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 09 2012,18:17) Mike, Do you not believe that one can have esteem for his own son (daughter, children) before they are even born or come into existence?
No Frank, I don't. I'm not trying to be rude, but I would call that as illogical as thinking a “thought in God's head” could be said to be WITH Him, or said to “EXIST”.But what about the second part of my question? What did it mean for the now existent Jesus to be asking to be returned to the same glory he had “as a thought in God's head”? Did Jesus want to cease from existing and go back to being a thought in God's head?
Also Frank, you are looking at this as if GOD is the one speaking about Jesus' past glory. So whether or not GOD had a “fore-esteem” for who He knew His Son would someday be, it doesn't add up to JESUS knowing about this esteem HE HAD, or wanting to go back to that “thought” esteem.
And don't forget that THE PERSON JESUS is the one who said “the glory I HAD WITH YOU……..” In other words, it was THE PERSON JESUS saying that THE PERSON JESUS had glory alongside his God before the world was created.
A person would have no idea about any esteem they were held in before they existed, nor could it logically be called “their glory” since “they” did not exist to “have” that glory.
According to Jesus' own words, HE HAD this glory in the past.
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