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Hi Marty,
The Spirit of the LORD spake by me,
and his word was in my tongue. (2Samuel 23:2)
“the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:” (Eph.6:17)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2011,11:47) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 28 2011,12:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2011,11:04) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 24 2011,12:25) So yes we do believe Rev 19:13 is a title given to Jesus…..
Thank you Gene. Frank? Are you hip to this?
Mike,Revelation 19:13 says that his (Yahshua's) [name/title] is called “The Word Of Yahweh”. It does NOT SAY “Yahshua IS the word of Yahweh.” as you deceptively teach and believe.
So you do believe that Rev 19:13 describes Jesus? Great! Because that is the truth of the matter, against which it seems Ed stands alone.But check out this one, Frank:
Genesis 17:5 NKJV ©
No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.Because it says “name be called”, does it mean that the actual NAME of Abram wasn't really “Abram”?
Frank, don't play games with the words of scripture in an attempt to pretend the scriptures don't say what they really do say.
If it said, “His name is called mikeboll64”, then you can be sure that was one of my actual names. One of the actual names/titles of Jesus is “The Word of God” because Jesus is the main spokesman for his God.
He is identified by this same title, by the same author, in the gospel of John. He is the Word of God in Revelation 19, and he is the Word of God in John 1. He is the one who became flesh, dwelled on earth, and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God – which he was.
There is no “deception” in that teaching Frank. Anyway, I am glad to see that you are not willing to deny that 19:13 is even about Jesus at all, in an attempt to force your doctrine. That is a good sign.
Ed, listen up. You are all alone on this one. Remember that the Word in 19:13 has eyes of blazing fire, and Jesus has eyes of blazing fire Rev 2:18.
Remember that the Word in 19:13 has a sharp sword coming out of his mouth, and Jesus has a sharp sword coming out of his mouth in Rev 1:16 and 2:16.
Remember that the Word in 19:13 wages war against the beast and the kings of the earth, and the Lamb of God also wages war against the beast and the kings of the earth in Rev 17:14
Remember that the Word in 19:13 is called Lord of lords and King of kings, and the Lamb of God is called these same things in Rev 17:14.
Remember that the Word in 19:13 will rule with an iron scepter, and Jehovah's Son is foretold to rule with an iron scepter in Psalm 2:9.
Just some food for thought, Ed. That is an awful lot of “coincidences”.
Mike,Abram was his given name and Yahweh changed his name to Abraham. This in turn was the name that he was then known and called by in replacement of his given name. No one called Yahshua “The Word of Yahweh” as a given name. This was merely an attributive name/title that Yahshua was given because he was the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. Yahshua was not literally Father Yahweh's word as a pre-existent being with Him in the beginning.
Hebrew names have meaning. This does not mean that they were literally the meaning of their names. Following are a number of Hebrew names and the meanings of these name. Note that these people who were given these names were not literally the meanings of these names:
Hagyah [Haggai]: meaning – 'Feast of Yahweh'
Moadyah [Moadian]: meaning – 'Appointed Faest of Yahweh'Hagyah and Moadyah were not LITERALLY Yahweh's feasts!
Pelalyah [Pelaliah]: meaning – 'Judgement of Yahweh'
Pelalyah was not LITERALLY Yahweh's Judgement!
Tobyah [Tobiah]: meaning – 'Righteousness of Yahweh'
Yahshaphat [Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat]: meaning – 'Judgement of Yahweh'Tobyah and Yahshaphat were not LITERALLY Yahweh's Judgement!
Uzzyah [Uzziah]: meaning – 'Strength of Yahweh'
Yliyah [Elijah]: meaning – 'Strength of Yahweh'Uzzyah and Yliyah were not LITERALLY Yahweh's strength!
Yahshabbth [Jehoshabeath]: meaning – 'Sabbath of Yahweh'
Yahshabbth was not LITERALLY Yahweh's Sabbath!
Zedekyah [Zedekiah, Zidkayah]: meaning – 'Righteousness of Yahweh'
Zedekyah was not LITERALLY Yahweh's righteousness!
Kolayah [Kolaiah]: meaning – 'Voice of Yahweh'
Kolayah was not LITERALLY the voice of Yahweh!
The same is true with Yahshua being called by the name/title “The Word of Yahweh”. Yahshua was not LITERALLY the word of Yahweh! Yahshua most certainly was not his and our Father Yahweh's word in the beginning as a separate being apart from Himself!
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
Genesis 1:26,27
By Voy Wilks
8/31/98“Then Elohim said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'” (Gen. 1:26, RSV).
Monotheism means one. Any person who believes in the Trinity or the Duality cannot properly claim to believe in Monotheism. The reason being, Trinity means three, Duality means two, while Monotheism means one – One theos, or One Elohim, not two, three, or a dozen. Of course,, Trinitarians and Dualists will heartily disagree, but this is fact. This is Truth. Monotheism means ONE. Perhaps a better term is Mono-el-ism; ONE EL.
Let Us
Because the words us and our appear in Genesis 1:26, “Let us make man in our images and our likeness, Trinitarians say, “Ah ha! This proves the Trinity.” But surprise: Dualist say, “Ah ha! This proves the Duality of Yahweh.” Isn't this amazing? It seems we have a choice. Based on these two little words, we can believe in the Trinity, or we can believe in Duality, all the while referring to these as Monotheism. Amazing!
After this astonishing revelation, let us now look at Genesis 1:27:
“So Elohim created man in HIS own image, in the image of Elohim HE created him; male and female HE created them.”
Comparison
Genesis 1:26 contains three plural pronouns. Genesis 1:27 contains three singular pronouns. All refer to the same person – the Creator. If Trinitarians and Dualists can ignore verse 27 with its singular pronouns, perhaps I should have the privilege of ignoring verse 26 with its plural pronouns. I speak lightly, of course, to encourage thought and study. My preference is, none of us should ignore Biblical Scripture as originally given.
Image and Likeness
Have you noticed? Image and likeness are not plural words, but singular; in Hebrew as well as English. Dr. Bullinger pointed this out, even though he was a Trinitarian. Elohim made man in the image of Elohim, not images of Elohim. This indicates the image (singular) of one person, not two or three persons. The same is true of likeness. The word is singular.
A Translator's Footnote (Gen. 1:26)
RSV Harper Study Bible, notes by Harold Lindsell.
“Let us make man. Many interpret us to mean the Trinity, … but probably early readers understood the word as the plural of majesty, just as the plural Elohim (Hebrew) is used of God to denote his majesty and attributes. Another possible interpretation is the picture of God consulting with his angelic court, the host of heaven (1 Kings 22:19), or the sons of God (Job 1:6).” (Emphasis added).It is interesting to note that Harold Lindsell believed in the Trinity, indicated by his note on Mt. 28:19, nevertheless he realized Gen. 1:26 does not promote the Trinity. He spoke of “early readers” who understood the word as the plural of majesty. “Early readers” would be the Saints of antiquity and the disciples of the first century C.E. who had no knowledge of Duality or Trinity (See The Christian Doctrine of God, Vol. 1, by the noted Theologian, Emil Brunner, pages 205-237; published by Westminister Press, Philadelphia, 1946).
The Reference: 1st Kings 22:19
When we consult the reference given by Mr. Lindsell (2 Kings 22:19), we see that his point is certainly worth considering:
“And Micaiah said, 'Therefore hear the word of Yahweh: I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all of the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and Yahweh said,
“'Who will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?' And one said one thing and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh, saying, 'I will entice him.' And Yahweh said to him, 'By what means?'
“'I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'
“Now therefore behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you” (1 Kings 22:19-22, RSV).
We see that Yahweh consulted with his celestial court on this occasion. He may have done the same in the beginning (Gen. 1:26). His celestial court consisted of the following:
(1) Yahweh
(2) The angels. Note Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13).
(3) The living creatures (the living beasts); that is, the Cherubim.
(4) No one else was present, apparently.Footnote, Genesis 1:26
{U]New English Bible[/U]
“The plural us (Gen. 3:22; 11:7) may be a majestic plural, or else refer to minor divine beings thought to surround God, like the courtiers of a human king (1 Kings 22:19-22).”Only One Yahweh & Only One True El
Since there is only one Yahweh and only one true El (Deut. 6:4; Neh. 9:6; John 17:3), this confirms Yahshua was not present in the beginning (1) as the Creator, or (2) as a second Yahweh (Gen. 1:26); nor was he present in the days of Ahab (1 Kings 22:19).
“To you it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is Elohim; there is no other besides HIM. … know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that Yahweh is Elohim in heaven above and on earth beneath; there is no other” (Deut. 4:35,39, RSV).
Deut. 6:4
Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is ONE Yahweh, …” (Deut. 6:4).
One is translated from the Hebrew word echad, equal in every respect to the English word, one. Echad is a cardinal number, meaning one as in one, two, three, etc. A cardinal number establishes how many, whereas an ordinal number establishes a place in a sequence, such as first, second, third, etc. Yahweh is not first among several. Instead, he is the ONE true El; the ONLY Yahweh who exist (2 Sam. 22:32; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10; 44:6; 45:5,6,21,22; Mark 12:28-32; Luke 18:19; Rev. 15:4).
Conclusion
Since there are more than sixty Scriptures which declare there is one Yahweh; one true Elohim so, is it rational to ignore 60 Scriptures which declare there is only one Yahweh, the evidence indicates we must accept the three plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26 as Mr. Lindsell suggested:
(1) As the plural of majesty, not as a plurality of persons; a plurality of Deities, or
(2) Accept the view that the only Yahweh who exists consulted with his Angelic Court, as illustrated in 2 Kings 22:19.
Scriptures do not support the doctrine of the Trinity, neither do they support the doctrine of Duality of Deities. Scriptures teach Monotheism; One Yahweh – One true El.
“You believe that Yahweh is one; you do well; the demons believe also, and tremble” (James 2:19).
SOURCEQuote (942767 @ Jan. 01 2012,20:58) If God spoke to humanity through him, then how can he be the Word or Logos in John 1:1?
Marty,For the hundreth time:
The King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who would relay the king's messages to others waiting in an outer room, because none of them were allowed to see or actually hear the king himself. That SPOKESMAN was titled “The Word of the King”.
Can you grasp this concept? Can you fathom the spokesman FOR someone else being figuratively called the Word of that person? Even with Rev 19:13 screaming at you that Jesus's NAME is “The Word of God”, are you still blind?
John 1
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Marty:
1. Through whom were all things made? (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
2. Who is the light of men and light of the world? (John 8:12, 9:5)
3. Whose name must we believe in to become immortal children of God? (John 3:16-18, 20:31, 1 John 5:13)
4. Who became flesh? (Heb 2:14)
5. Who made his dwelling among John and the others?
6. Who would have the glory as of an only begotten from the Father? (John 3:16)
7. Who did John testify concerning? (John 1:29-30)Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,13:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2011,11:47) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 28 2011,12:31) Mike, Revelation 19:13 says that his (Yahshua's) [name/title] is called “The Word Of Yahweh”. It does NOT SAY “Yahshua IS the word of Yahweh.” as you deceptively teach and believe.
Genesis 17:5 NKJV ©
No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.Because it says “name be called”, does it mean that the actual NAME of Abram wasn't really “Abram”?
Mike,Abram was his given name and Yahweh changed his name to Abraham.
Frank,The words say “name be CALLED Abram”. You have tried to make a point that “The Word of God” is not a bonafide NAME of Jesus because of the wording “his name is CALLED”.
But that is the same wording in 17:5, and we know that “Abram” WAS an actual, bonafide NAME of Abraham, right?
My point is that you can't use the wording “name is CALLED” as a reason to say Jesus really isn't “The Word of God”. If his name is CALLED that, then he IS that, just as Abraham WAS truly Abram.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,12:32) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 01 2012,20:58) If God spoke to humanity through him, then how can he be the Word or Logos in John 1:1?
Marty,For the hundreth time:
The King of Abyssinia had a spokesman who would relay the king's messages to others waiting in an outer room, because none of them were allowed to see or actually hear the king himself. That SPOKESMAN was titled “The Word of the King”.
Can you grasp this concept? Can you fathom the spokesman FOR someone else being figuratively called the Word of that person? Even with Rev 19:13 screaming at you that Jesus's NAME is “The Word of God”, are you still blind?
John 1
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Marty:
1. Through whom were all things made? (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
2. Who is the light of men and light of the world? (John 8:12, 9:5)
3. Whose name must we believe in to become immortal children of God? (John 3:16-18, 20:31, 1 John 5:13)
4. Who became flesh? (Heb 2:14)
5. Who made his dwelling among John and the others?
6. Who would have the glory as of an only begotten from the Father? (John 3:16)
7. Who did John testify concerning? (John 1:29-30)
Mike,The Messiah's given name is Yahshua, not “The Word of Yahweh”. In accordance with Modern English the New Living Translation translates Revelation 19:13 appropriately:
He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was [T]he Word of [Yahweh] (Revelation 19:13 New Living Translation ©2007 – Yahweh's Name Restored).
Yahshua's title was the word of Yahweh simply because he was the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being as the word of Yahweh in the beginning.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,12:40) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,13:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2011,11:47) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 28 2011,12:31) Mike, Revelation 19:13 says that his (Yahshua's) [name/title] is called “The Word Of Yahweh”. It does NOT SAY “Yahshua IS the word of Yahweh.” as you deceptively teach and believe.
Genesis 17:5 NKJV ©
No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.Because it says “name be called”, does it mean that the actual NAME of Abram wasn't really “Abram”?
Mike,Abram was his given name and Yahweh changed his name to Abraham.
Frank,The words say “name be CALLED Abram”. You have tried to make a point that “The Word of God” is not a bonafide NAME of Jesus because of the wording “his name is CALLED”.
But that is the same wording in 17:5, and we know that “Abram” WAS an actual, bonafide NAME of Abraham, right?
My point is that you can't use the wording “name is CALLED” as a reason to say Jesus really isn't “The Word of God”. If his name is CALLED that, then he IS that, just as Abraham WAS truly Abram.
Mike,No, “The Word of Yahweh” is not a BONAFIDE NAME of the Messiah! The Messiah's GIVEN BONAFIDE NAME is Yahshua.
Therefore Yahweh exalted him to the highest place and gave him THE NAME that is ABOVE EVERY NAME, that at the NAME OF YAHSHUA every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that YAHSHUA Messiah is Master, to the esteem of Yahweh the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
Hi Frank,
What bible translation do you post from?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,13:38) Hi Frank, What bible translation do you post from?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I use translations (plural) of Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:00) Yahshua's title was the word of Yahweh simply because he was the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
By golly, I think you've got it Frank!
Now tell me why that title coudn't have been used of him in the gospel by the same author?
We know the “Word” in John 1 refers to “the Word of God”, right? (Because who else's word would John be talking about?)
So if John called Jesus by what you ADMIT is Jesus' title in Rev 19:13, then why in the world would it be so hard for you to believe the same author called Jesus by the same title in his other book?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 05 2012,13:42) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,13:38) Hi Frank, What bible translation do you post from?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I use translations (plural) of Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Hi Frank,Which?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 05 2012,13:42) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,13:38) Hi Frank, What bible translation do you post from?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,I use translations (plural) of Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Ed J,I prefer translations that restore Father Yahweh's Name and His son's name to their proper esteem.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,13:45) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:00) Yahshua's title was the word of Yahweh simply because he was the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
By golly, I think you've got it Frank!Now tell me why that title coudn't have been used of him in the gospel by the same author?
We know the “Word” in John 1 refers to “the Word of God”, right? (Because who else's word would John be talking about?)
So if John called Jesus by what you ADMIT is Jesus' title in Rev 19:13, then why in the world would it be so hard for you to believe the same author called Jesus by the same title in his other book?
Mike,Yahchanan [John] does not say “… and the word was Jesus.”
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 05 2012,13:48) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 05 2012,13:42) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,13:38) Hi Frank, What bible translation do you post from?
God bless
Ed J
Ed J,I use translations (plural) of Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Ed J,I prefer translations that restore Father Yahweh's Name and His son's name to their proper esteem.
Hi Frank,Thank you, but I only seen the “AKJV Bible” on that link,
did I miss any others that were there that you use?You still haven't “technically” told me which translations that you use? which are…
1. AKJV Bible
2. …?
3. …?
4. ect…God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 05 2012,13:50) Ed J, ALL translations that are available to me.
Hi Frank,I believe there are currently over 54 different English translations
that are available to you, could you narrow it down a bit more?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,13:45) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:00) Yahshua's title was the word of Yahweh simply because he was the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
By golly, I think you've got it Frank!Now tell me why that title coudn't have been used of him in the gospel by the same author?
We know the “Word” in John 1 refers to “the Word of God”, right? (Because who else's word would John be talking about?)
So if John called Jesus by what you ADMIT is Jesus' title in Rev 19:13, then why in the world would it be so hard for you to believe the same author called Jesus by the same title in his other book?
Mike,Yahchanan [John] does not say “… and the word was Jesus.”
Nor does he say the rider of the white horse was “Jesus”; yet you know and admit that it is, right?Go on………………
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 04 2012,20:48) Ed J, I prefer translations that restore Father Yahweh's Name and His son's name to their proper esteem.
Then you'll like this one, Frank. Oh, and the NWT.It is interesting to note that YHWH has always been, and if we have eternal life, which is to live forever going forth, then that obviously doesn't include going back as we have a beginning. Now Jesus is referenced as the “eternal life that was with the Father” in the beginning. The eternal life that was with the Father is reminiscent of the Word that was with God and it sounds like he was the first eternal life to be with God.
1 John 1:2
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.It then says in the second sentence after that: And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
The Book of John and it seems his other books are about Jesus and it equates and calls him many titles.
Anyone who thinks that the Logos that was with God is not about Jesus has explaining to do. The book is about Jesus and he is introduced in the beginning of the book and is referenced throughout the book with many titles and descriptions.
In the beginning was the Logos is all about Jesus beginnings.
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