Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2011,17:30)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 19 2011,10:52) T8 are you not found in the appearance as a Man also. It is  plain Paul is talking about a Past time and that Pastime was when Jesus was on this  earth. Paul was in no way relating to any time period before Jesus came into existence on the earth, that is clear if you understand what Paul's Point was, and if Paul was talking about his before Earth existences I Believe he would clearly have said Before he came to this earth as a Human Being he existed as a God or Angel or whatever. And whats even more interesting none of the other disciples said He preexisted his berth on this earth surely they would have all at least mentioned it seeing it is such a big thing to all you preexistence and Trinitarians, It would have been expounded very very clearly, don't you think?,  and we would not be having this conversation at all now would we T8,  Your accusing me of doing exactly what you preexistences are doing. Now that if indeed humorous, you need to produce facts not suppositions based on you preconceived ideologies brother. IMO Did you even read what FRANK POSTED?,  forget about what i have said do you even think about what FRANK and OTHERS here have POSTED. Can't you see T8 the only difference between you and the Trinitarians is they believe Jesus was a GOD and YOU believe He was a Morphed Angel of some kind, other than that both Trinitarians and Preexistences are exactly alike, You both believe GOD created everything through Jesus  even through God Said He did it “ALONE and BY HIMSELF” and i am changing scriptures right?. peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene Gene, I don't think either of us existed with divine nature, emptied ourselves, found ourselves as men, then to die, be resurrected, and in the glory we had with the Father before the world began. And yet you have to say yes because Jesus is in no way different to us. However, I haven't heard one person (not even yourself) claim this for themself. If you really believe Jesus is a man just like us and was created as a man with no previous existence in a different nature or form, then claim Philippians 2:6-8 for yourself. And if not, why not?

T8….. You believe you exist now with Godly Nature by receiving it from God , right? Now lets say you were to humble yourself and take on the role of a servant as Jesus did. And years later after you were gone and no longer here, and someone was using you as a example they could also say T8 existed with the Nature of GOD but humbled himself and took on the nature of a servant not trying to rob GOD by making himself equal with him. Even though you had that nature. Paul was only using Jesus' earthly example of humility while he as a man existed with God's Nature. Just the simple T8'

The idea of a preexistent Jesus before his earthly existent was not Paul's point at all, in fact that point of a pre-earth existent was not even mentioned. This is what i mean by “FORCING THE TEXT” to fit a preconceived belief .

Now concerning your mentioning of not having Glory we have with God before the world began, is also in error, why? Because we did have Glory with him before the world began , it was in God plan before we ever existed, let me post a couple of scripture that bring this out.

Rom 9:29………> For whom he did (FOREKNOW), he also did (PREDESIGNATE) to be conformed to the IMAGE of his Son, that he might be first (BORN) among (MANY) brethren.

Now please notice T8 verse 30,

Moreover whom he did predesignate, them he also called: and whom he also called them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also (GLORIFIED)

Notice T8 all of that is (IN) past tense language. Does that not mean it has already occurred in the past and if so when in the past did that occur, It was before the world began T8. Now in what way did it already occur (was it not in the Plan and WILL of GOD. Paul is showing us it was a done deal before we ever existed brother.

But wait there is more, Concerning present Glory.

1 Cor 11:7…..> For a man indeed ought not to cover his head inasmuch as he (IS) the image and (GLORY) OF GOD but the woman is the Glory of the man.

2 Cor 3:18…But we (ALL), with open face beholding as in a glass the (GLORY) of the Lord, are changed into the (SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY) , (EVEN AS) by the SPIRIT of the Lord.

Peace and love to you and yours T8………………………….gene

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2011,16:28)

Gene, Frank doesn't post anything from what I can see, he copies and pastes stuff. If I am talking to someone about a subject and a person has a different view, then I want to hear why they believe as they do. Too many Christians do not understand things and just parrot or copy and paste things, and Frank has not given any explanation to the scriptures that we believe. Not anything of substance or even compelling. I read your posts sometimes Gene, because I know you wrote them and thus you are in a position to defend them. Not so with Frank. He doesn't defend anything because he doesn't post his own words, thus he is not able to defend his posts. And also they are quite long and I don't jhave time to slice and dice what he does post as it would take way to long to do that. I dialogue with people who can answer a simple question with a simple answer. Long-winded posts remind me of EULA's or the small print in a contract, you practically need a lawyer to go over them because they can hide many nasties or can easily hide things that are not good.

t8,

Here is what the deceived parrots SAY:

“Jesus IS the word of God!”

“Jesus IS God!”

“Jesus pre-existed his birth!”

NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY or teach such foolishness!

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,11:19)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2011,16:28) Gene, Frank doesn't post anything from what I can see, he copies and pastes stuff. If I am talking to someone about a subject and a person has a different view, then I want to hear why they believe as they do. Too many Christians do not understand things and just parrot or copy and paste things, and Frank has not given any explanation to the scriptures that we believe. Not anything of substance or even compelling. I read your posts sometimes Gene, because I know you wrote them and thus you are in a position to defend them. Not so with Frank. He doesn't defend anything because he doesn't post his own words, thus he is not able to defend his posts. And also they are quite long and I don't jhave time to slice and dice what he does post as it would take way to long to do that. I dialogue with people who can answer a simple question with a simple answer. Long-winded posts remind me of EULA's or the small print in a contract, you practically need a lawyer to go over them because they can hide many nasties or can easily hide things that are not good. t8, Here is what the deceived parrots SAY: “Jesus IS the word of God!” “Jesus IS God!” “Jesus pre-existed his birth!” NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY or teach such foolishness! Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”?

franky

you are a copier and pastier,

not even a honest one

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2011,02:02)

T8….. You believe you exist now with Godly Nature by receiving it from God , right? Now lets say you were to humble yourself and take on the role of a servant  as Jesus did.  And years later after you were gone and no longer here, and someone was using you as a example they could also say T8 existed with the Nature of GOD but humbled himself and took on the nature of a servant not trying to rob GOD by making himself equal with him. Even though you had that nature. Paul was only using Jesus' earthly example of humility while he as a man existed with God's Nature.  Just the simple T8'

Even bending and stretching it that far still leaves a gaping hole in the argument.

You missed out partaking of flesh AFTER existing with divine nature and emptying oneself. In addition you missed the fact of returning to the glory with God before the world began.

So your argument becomes that I existed with divine nature, emptied myself, became flesh, and after death, I will be in the glory I had with God before the world began.

When in actual fact, I was flesh first, partook of divine nature after that, and yes death is certain, and if I find myself at the right-hand of God, it is likely that I am not returning to some previous held position.

So you need to stretch and bend your argument much more Gene.

Have another go and then we will analyse the outcome.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,04:19)

Here is what the deceived parrots SAY:

Actually I thought I was human, so if I am a parrot, then I am indeed deceived.
As you can see from my passport photo, I am a white blond man with a yellow mohawk.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2011,02:02)

Moreover whom he did predesignate, them he also called: and whom he also called them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also (GLORIFIED)

OK, so this is your attempt.

Fist off, predestination is not the same as existing with divine nature because we are told that we can partake of divine nature and no one assumes that we are partaking of predestination are they?

Lastly, being glorified is not meant to be taken that you are going to the glory that you had with the Father before the world began. Rather it is something new for us.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,06:12)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,11:19) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2011,16:28) Gene, Frank doesn't post anything from what I can see, he copies and pastes stuff. If I am talking to someone about a subject and a person has a different view, then I want to hear why they believe as they do. Too many Christians do not understand things and just parrot or copy and paste things, and Frank has not given any explanation to the scriptures that we believe. Not anything of substance or even compelling. I read your posts sometimes Gene, because I know you wrote them and thus you are in a position to defend them. Not so with Frank. He doesn't defend anything because he doesn't post his own words, thus he is not able to defend his posts. And also they are quite long and I don't jhave time to slice and dice what he does post as it would take way to long to do that. I dialogue with people who can answer a simple question with a simple answer. Long-winded posts remind me of EULA's or the small print in a contract, you practically need a lawyer to go over them because they can hide many nasties or can easily hide things that are not good. t8, Here is what the deceived parrots SAY: “Jesus IS the word of God!” “Jesus IS God!” “Jesus pre-existed his birth!” NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY or teach such foolishness! Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? franky you are a copier and  pastier, not even a honest one Pierre

Pierre,

It is you that is a fool and the liar!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA
Rev. 3:14 & Col. 1:15

Two scriptures are often used to show that Yahshua was the very first act of creation by Yahweh. Everything else is said to have been created by, or with the help of, Yahshua. Those scriptures are Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14. Let's look at Col. 1:15 first. Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of every creature: …”. What does the latter part of this verse mean? Does “ever creature” include the angels that rejoiced at creation?

To understand this verse, you must first understand that Yahweh is in the process of creating a new world; “the world to come” as Heb. 2:5 puts it. Isayah 65:17, 18 speaks of the “new heavens and the new earth.” Those that rule in the new earth are those who that will be resurrected or “born from above” (Jn. 3:7). Psalms 102:18-20 puts it very clearly; “This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise Yahweh. For He hath looked down from the height of His sanctuary; from heaven did Yahweh behold the earth; to hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those who are appointed to death;” Theses people will be created, or born, at the resurrection.

To clarify even further, we read the following in Ps. 104:29,30; “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.” Yahweh will resurrect the dead through the power of His Holy Spirit. It is said of those that are resurrected that they are created.”

The first person to be created, or born again from above, was Yahshua. Therefore, he is called the “firstborn.” Since there are many that will be born again at the resurrection, he is the “firstborn of every creature (that will be resurrected).” Col. 1:18 elaborates further by telling us that Yahshua is the firstborn of the dead. This takes place at the resurrection. It is also said of Yahshua that he is “the beginning” (Col. 1:18). This is the same term that is used in Rev. 3:14 which reads, “And unto the angel of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of Yahweh; …”. Does this beginning refer to a time before the angels were created or does it refer to the new creation? Some would argue that the word “new” is not in the text. Yahweh has shown us however, that He does not always use the word “new” in describing the new creation. Notice Isayah 65:17,18; “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.” This is speaking of New Jerusalem, yet the word “New” is not used by Yahweh.

Continuing in Colossians to verse 17 we read, “and he is before all things and by him all things consist.” As a result of this translation, we are lead to believe that Yahshua existed prior to everything else, including the angels. The same Greek phrase, “before all things,” is also found in Ja. 5:12 and 1 Pe. 4:8. Both of those text read “above all things.” That is because the Greek word “pro,” translated “before.” also carries the meaning of superiority or pre-eminence. Since Col. 1:15-18 proclaims the pre-eminence of Yahshua in all things (vs. 18), translating verse 17 as “above all things” would fit the context.

YAHSHUA: THE BEGINNING OF YAHWEH'S CREATION
Revelation 3:14
By Voy Wilks
6/18/96

“Theses things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of Yahweh's creation” (Rev. 3:14, RSV).

Being identified as “the faithful and true witness,” both here and in Rev. 1:15, makes clear that “Amen”: is indeed a reference to Yahshua, the Messiah.

This being true, does this also mean that, first of all, the Supreme Being (Yahweh) created His son Yahshua, and only later created the angels, the stars, the sun, moon and earth, then last of all, created man upon the earth? Indeed no.

We must realize: there are two creations spoken of in Scriptures:

(1) The six day creation of physical things of which Adam was a part; Adam, the first man ever to exist (Gen. 1:27; 2:7,19; 1 Cor. 15:45). Because it was physical, this creation quickly fell into unrighteousness and, as a consequence, death entered; and that by the transgression of one man – Adam). And so, death passed to all men (Rom. 5:12).

Death: the enemy of all the physical creation, and especially the enemy of mankind (1 Cor. 15:25,26). The present creation could be called. “the creation in which dwelleth UNrighteousness.”

(2) But there is to be another creation; a creation in which dwelleth righteousness. This creation consist of a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13). The Prophet Isaiah predicted the same (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22). The Apostle John too, declared there will one day be a New Heaven and a New Earth (Rev. 21:1). Nothing unclean will enter there Sorrow and crying will flee away. There will be no more curse (Rev. 21:4; 22:3).

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be remembered, nor come into mind. …. For, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy” (Isa. 65:17,18).

“For as the new heaven and the new earth which I will make …” (Isa. 66:22).

Abraham and the ancient Saints looked to the future for a homeland, a better country, a city whose maker is Yahweh (Heb. 11:14,15). And Yahweh has prepared for them a city (Heb. 11:16; Rev. 21:2).

Theses Scriptures speak of “The World Tomorrow.”

“For it was not to the angels that Yahweh subjected the WORLD TO COME, of which WE ARE SPEAKING,” [but to the seed of Abraham] (Heb. 2:5, 16, RSV).

“And Yahshua said to them, the sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that AGE and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry or are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to the angels and are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the RESURRECTION” (Luke 20:34-36).

“So with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a SPIRITUAL body” (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

Yahweh s planning a new creation; a creation in which the true Believers will posses spiritual bodies which do not decay. This comes about by the resurrection from the dead and the grave. Yahshua was the first to rise from the dead. He was declared to be the Son of Yahweh by this very act; his resurrection from the dead (Rom. 1:1-4). If Yahshua had not pleased the heavenly Father, he would still be in the grave today … [and would not be Father Yahweh's son].

But he did please the heavenly Father, and so, became the firstfruits of the resurrection – the first to receive immortality; a new creation (1 Cor. 15:20-24).

“He [Yahshua] is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of all creation …” (Col 1:15). The creation under consideration is the new (the spiritual) creation, revealed in verse 18:

“He is the head of the body, the assembly; he is the beginning. the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent” (Col. 1:18).

For the redeemed, there will be a conversion, a change (a creation) of our physical bodies into spiritual bodies, thus a new social order; spiritual bodies (people) who are immortal, everlasting, indestructible; incorruptible; a spiritual * society fro the new earth in which dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:13).

Conclusion

In view of the Scriptures noted above, Rev. 3:14 must not be considered as evidence that Yahshua was created before (or during) the six day creation recorded in Gene
sis.

So Yahshua, The Amen, the faithful and true witness, truly is the BEGINNING OF YAHWEH'S CREATION – The NEW Creation.

* Please keep in mind that the physical is real, but the spiritual is more real.
SOURCE

[Proclaimer]

See Frank.

A typical copy and paste response.

If you believe this, then put it into your own words and respond to each relevant point.

I don't really believe that anyone truly reads your posts because you are not having a conversation, rather just posting propaganda and every opportune moment.

[mikeboll64]

I don't read them anymore.  I dissected one of them, showing Frank point by point where it was in error.  But he didn't want to discuss those errors.  Instead, he just started calling me names.

Anyway, if Frank or Gene were willing to stand and defend those posts, one point at a time, then I would love to dissect more of them.

But since I know that's not going to happen, I just ignore them.  (He keeps posting the same ones over and over anyway.)

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,14:22)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,06:12) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,11:19) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2011,16:28) Gene, Frank doesn't post anything from what I can see, he copies and pastes stuff. If I am talking to someone about a subject and a person has a different view, then I want to hear why they believe as they do. Too many Christians do not understand things and just parrot or copy and paste things, and Frank has not given any explanation to the scriptures that we believe. Not anything of substance or even compelling. I read your posts sometimes Gene, because I know you wrote them and thus you are in a position to defend them. Not so with Frank. He doesn't defend anything because he doesn't post his own words, thus he is not able to defend his posts. And also they are quite long and I don't jhave time to slice and dice what he does post as it would take way to long to do that. I dialogue with people who can answer a simple question with a simple answer. Long-winded posts remind me of EULA's or the small print in a contract, you practically need a lawyer to go over them because they can hide many nasties or can easily hide things that are not good. t8, Here is what the deceived parrots SAY: “Jesus IS the word of God!” “Jesus IS God!” “Jesus pre-existed his birth!” NOWHERE in Scripture does it EVER SAY or teach such foolishness! Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? franky you are a copier and  pastier, not even a honest one Pierre Pierre, It is you that is a fool and the liar!

frank

Quote

Pierre, It is you that is a fool and the liar!

would this statement make you not what you say ,to others

we can see your post and your actions ,in your responds

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:15)

I don't read them anymore.  I dissected one of them, showing Frank point by point where it was in error.  But he didn't want to discuss those errors.  Instead, he just started calling me names. Anyway, if Frank or Gene were willing to stand and defend those posts, one point at a time, then I would love to dissect more of them. But since I know that's not going to happen, I just ignore them.  (He keeps posting the same ones over and over anyway.)

Yes Mike. Frustrating when you go to that effort and then find you are ignored.

And if he is posting the same ones over and over again, then he is in violation of the rules.
Flooding the forums is not permitted.

[mikeboll64]

Do you hear that, Frank?

You are not allowed to post the same quotes over and over. We've got our eyes on you from here on out.

(Whatever will you do if you can't just keep re-posting the same drivel? Might you actually have to DISCUSS the issue with us in your own words? )

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:06)

See Frank. A typical copy and paste response. If you believe this, then put it into your own words and respond to each relevant point. I don't really believe that anyone truly reads your posts because you are not having a conversation, rather just posting propaganda and every opportune moment.

t8,

Whether you read my “typical copy and paste response” is totally up to you!

The following is a “typical copy and paste response” from My Xanga Blog

Yahshua The Light
By Voy Wilks
5/14/02

Yahshua the Messiah is indeed referred to as the light of the world (John 1:7-9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35; Luke 2:32). Does this mean he pre-existed?

John the Baptist came as a light to bear witness to a greater light (St. John 1:7-9).

“… a burning and a shining light” (John 5:35, KJV).

Does this mean that John the Baptist pre-existed?

“Ye [the disciples of Yahshua] are the light of the world … Let your light so shine …” (Mt. 5:14-16).

Does this mean the disciples pre-existed? No. The glorious gospel of the Messiah is what brings light to Believers (2 Cor. 4:4). His disciples walk in the light because of faith in the Messiah Yahshua walked in the light because of his faith and the closeness to Yahweh, he light giver.

“For ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Messiah. Walk as children of the light” (Eph. 5:8).

“Ye [brethren] are all the children of light …” (1 Thes. 5:5).

Yahshua was the greater light of all the prophets; the prophets who delivered the true message of the Most High to planet earth. He was not swayed by peer pressure. Even so, this does not indicate Yahshua pre-existed. When we study the word pre-exist. it basically means, he existed before he existed. Yahshua was like Moses (a man), a prophet in Israel.

“I [Yahweh] will raise up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee [Moses], and will put my words in his mouth …” (Deut. 18:15-18,19).

He was born of a woman, made under the law (Gal 4:4).

To believe that Yahshua pre-existed is only an assumption.

YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN

One Among Many Brethren
Hebrews 2:10-12

Voy Wilks
8/31/99

Some people seem to forget Moses promised that Yahweh would raise up a prophet “like unto me [Moses] from among your [Israel's] brethren” (Deut. 18:15). Was Moses a pre-existent deity? Were his brethren pre-existent deities? That Yahshua was not a pre-existent deity, but was one brother among many brethren is made clear in this and other Scriptures:

“For it was fitting that He [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer [Yahshua] of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those [other sons] who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, 'I will proclaim thy Name to my [Yahshua's] brethren, in the midst of the congregation. I [Yahshua] will praise thee [Yahweh] (Heb. 2:10-12, RSV).

Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, which means he did not pre-exist.

When we cry, 'Abba! Father!,' [Yahweh] it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of Yahweh, and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and fellow heirs with Yahshua, provided we suffer with him [Yahshua] in order that we might also be glorified with him” [Yahshua] (Rom. 8:15-17).

Think on these things.

[Proclaimer]

Yes Frank, you can post from other sites and quote the source as you do, just don't post the same stuff over and over.
And yes you are right, you shouldn't care that myself and others do not read your posts because that is the reality.

When you want to get real and have a conversation, then we are ready.
Until then, post away for what it is worth.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:15)

I don't read them anymore.  I dissected one of them, showing Frank point by point where it was in error.  But he didn't want to discuss those errors.  Instead, he just started calling me names. Anyway, if Frank or Gene were willing to stand and defend those posts, one point at a time, then I would love to dissect more of them. But since I know that's not going to happen, I just ignore them.  (He keeps posting the same ones over and over anyway.)

Mike,

As I have said many times to you on this forum, I have no desire whatsoever to discuss anything with you! I see no evidence whatsoever of your ignoring my posts, since you keep responding to almost every post that I have made!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:48)

Yes Frank, you can post from other sites and quote the source as you do, just don't post the same stuff over and over. And yes you are right, you shouldn't care that myself and others do not read your posts because that is the reality. When you want to get real and have a conversation, then we are ready. Until then, post away for what it is worth.

t8,

I also have no desire whatsoever to discuss or have a conversation with you!

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,16:36)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:06) See Frank. A typical copy and paste response. If you believe this, then put it into your own words and respond to each relevant point. I don't really believe that anyone truly reads your posts because you are not having a conversation, rather just posting propaganda and every opportune moment. t8, Whether you read my “typical copy and paste response” is totally up to you!   The following is a “typical copy and paste response” from My Xanga Blog Yahshua The Light By Voy Wilks 5/14/02 Yahshua the Messiah is indeed referred to as the light of the world (John 1:7-9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35; Luke 2:32). Does this mean he pre-existed? John the Baptist came as a light to bear witness to a greater light (St. John 1:7-9). “… a burning and a shining light” (John 5:35, KJV). Does this mean that John the Baptist pre-existed? “Ye [the disciples of Yahshua] are the light of the world … Let your light so shine …” (Mt. 5:14-16). Does this mean the disciples pre-existed? No. The glorious gospel of the Messiah is what brings light to Believers (2 Cor. 4:4). His disciples walk in the light because of faith in the Messiah Yahshua walked in the light because of his faith and the closeness to Yahweh, he light giver. “For ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Messiah. Walk as children of the light” (Eph. 5:8). “Ye [brethren] are all the children of light …” (1 Thes. 5:5). Yahshua was the greater light of all the prophets; the prophets who delivered the true message of the Most High to planet earth. He was not swayed by peer pressure. Even so, this does not indicate Yahshua pre-existed. When we study the word pre-exist. it basically means, he existed before he existed. Yahshua was like Moses (a man), a prophet in Israel. “I [Yahweh] will raise up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee [Moses], and will put my words in his mouth …” (Deut. 18:15-18,19). He was born of a woman, made under the law (Gal 4:4). To believe that Yahshua pre-existed is only an assumption. YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN One Among Many Brethren Hebrews 2:10-12 Voy Wilks 8/31/99 Some people seem to forget Moses promised that Yahweh would raise up a prophet “like unto me [Moses] from among your [Israel's] brethren” (Deut. 18:15). Was Moses a pre-existent deity? Were his brethren pre-existent deities? That Yahshua was not a pre-existent deity, but was one brother among many brethren is made clear in this and other Scriptures: “For it was fitting that He [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer [Yahshua] of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those [other sons] who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, 'I will proclaim thy Name to my [Yahshua's] brethren, in the midst of the congregation. I [Yahshua] will praise thee [Yahweh] (Heb. 2:10-12, RSV). Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, which means he did not pre-exist. When we cry, 'Abba! Father!,' [Yahweh] it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of Yahweh, and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and fellow heirs with Yahshua, provided we suffer with him [Yahshua] in order that we might also be glorified with him” [Yahshua] (Rom. 8:15-17). Think on these things.

frank

is it true that you do not possessing any knowledge of your own ,and so have to use someone else works to justify what you believe ,and so saving for yourself the privilege to say it was not mine ,I did not agree with it,I just copy and paste it guys,

you try to feed us all sort of propaganda of ignorant people that lack bible understanding beyond the common knowledge of them.

educating themselves but never come to the true understanding of Gods word ,

talking about words and grammar what in reality does not help much ,to come closer to God ,

your lips and your fingers are doing most of the work but I can not see your heart doing anything ,

Pierre

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:34)

Do you hear that, Frank?   You are not allowed to post the same quotes over and over.  We've got our eyes on you from here on out. (Whatever will you do if you can't just keep re-posting the same drivel?  Might you actually have to DISCUSS the issue with us in your own words?   )

Mike,

What did you say? I can't hear!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2011,09:51)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 21 2011,16:36) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,09:06) See Frank. A typical copy and paste response. If you believe this, then put it into your own words and respond to each relevant point. I don't really believe that anyone truly reads your posts because you are not having a conversation, rather just posting propaganda and every opportune moment. t8, Whether you read my “typical copy and paste response” is totally up to you!   The following is a “typical copy and paste response” from My Xanga Blog Yahshua The Light By Voy Wilks 5/14/02 Yahshua the Messiah is indeed referred to as the light of the world (John 1:7-9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35; Luke 2:32). Does this mean he pre-existed? John the Baptist came as a light to bear witness to a greater light (St. John 1:7-9). “… a burning and a shining light” (John 5:35, KJV). Does this mean that John the Baptist pre-existed? “Ye [the disciples of Yahshua] are the light of the world … Let your light so shine …” (Mt. 5:14-16). Does this mean the disciples pre-existed? No. The glorious gospel of the Messiah is what brings light to Believers (2 Cor. 4:4). His disciples walk in the light because of faith in the Messiah Yahshua walked in the light because of his faith and the closeness to Yahweh, he light giver. “For ye were sometime darkness, but now are ye light in the Messiah. Walk as children of the light” (Eph. 5:8). “Ye [brethren] are all the children of light …” (1 Thes. 5:5). Yahshua was the greater light of all the prophets; the prophets who delivered the true message of the Most High to planet earth. He was not swayed by peer pressure. Even so, this does not indicate Yahshua pre-existed. When we study the word pre-exist. it basically means, he existed before he existed. Yahshua was like Moses (a man), a prophet in Israel. “I [Yahweh] will raise up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee [Moses], and will put my words in his mouth …” (Deut. 18:15-18,19). He was born of a woman, made under the law (Gal 4:4). To believe that Yahshua pre-existed is only an assumption. YAHSHUA'S ORIGIN One Among Many Brethren Hebrews 2:10-12 Voy Wilks 8/31/99 Some people seem to forget Moses promised that Yahweh would raise up a prophet “like unto me [Moses] from among your [Israel's] brethren” (Deut. 18:15). Was Moses a pre-existent deity? Were his brethren pre-existent deities? That Yahshua was not a pre-existent deity, but was one brother among many brethren is made clear in this and other Scriptures: “For it was fitting that He [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer [Yahshua] of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those [other sons] who are sanctified have all one origin. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, 'I will proclaim thy Name to my [Yahshua's] brethren, in the midst of the congregation. I [Yahshua] will praise thee [Yahweh] (Heb. 2:10-12, RSV). Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren, which means he did not pre-exist. When we cry, 'Abba! Father!,' [Yahweh] it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of Yahweh, and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and fellow heirs with Yahshua, provided we suffer with him [Yahshua] in order that we might also be glorified with him” [Yahshua] (Rom. 8:15-17). Think on these things. frank is it true that you do not possessing any knowledge of your own ,and so have to use someone else works to justify what you believe ,and so saving for yourself the privilege to say it was not mine ,I did not agree with it,I just copy and paste it guys, you try to feed us all sort of propaganda of ignorant people that lack bible understanding beyond the common knowledge of them. educating themselves but never come to the true understanding of Gods word , talking about words and grammar what in reality does not help much ,to come closer to God , your lips and your fingers are doing most of the work but I can not see your heart doing anything , Pierre

Pierre,

And you still continue with your foolish and uneducated responses!

[Author]

Posts