- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 16 2011,15:01) Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.John 3:31
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven.John 6:62
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!John 8:23
But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:38
I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”John 8:42
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;John 16:28
“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.(There are many more.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,10:49) It's funny that Frank's defense to Proverbs 8 is the feminine form of the words, yet he is willing to completely ignore the singular, masculine form of the pronouns associated with “the Word” in John 1. 
Frank, if wisdom cannot be Jesus because of feminine pronouns, then the Word cannot be an “it” because of the masculine pronouns.
You'll have to give in on one or the other, right?
Mike,Words are personified with both feminine and masculine pronouns in Scripture translation. It makes no difference whether words are personified with either feminine or masculine pronouns, they are still not actual beings or persons. Just as wisdom in Proverbs 8:1- is an 'it' so is “word” in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 an “it”. Yahweh's set apart (“holy”) spirit is also given a masculine pronoun personification and is also an “it”.
The Holy Spirit Is An It!
The Holy Spirit Is Not A Person!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,11:10) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 16 2011,15:01) Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.John 3:31
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven.John 6:62
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!John 8:23
But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:38
I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”John 8:42
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;John 16:28
“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.(There are many more.)
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him who sent me; …” (John 6:38, KJV).I have searched the Scriptures at length and (assuming I overlooked none), have found that the Apostle John is the only witness which says Yahshua came down from heaven. John mentions this several times. They are listed here for your convenience:
John 3:13,31; 6:32-33, 38, 41-42, 50-51, 58, 62; 8:42; 16:27-28; 17:8
Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude make no mention that Yahshua “came down from heaven”.
Some believe that every major doctrine must have two witnesses. On this major point, however, we have only one witness who testifies that “Yahshua came down from heaven.” Such an astonishing bit of history as this should have several witnesses. But no. There is only one witness – the Apostle John. What are we to make of this surprising bit of information?
Actually, my view is, when biblical Scriptures are involved, only one witness is needed. However, something as outstanding as this would surely have been mentioned by other New Testament writers if this is to be accepted as literally true. From the list above, we see that no other New Testament writer records that “Yahshua came down from heaven.”
Figures of Speech
In reading through the book of Saint John, we discover that he indulges in many figures of speech; more than any other New Testament writer. Perhaps some will protest “But John wrote exact quotations from the Master's lips!” Perhaps this is true. If so, the other New Testament writers evidently gave the meaning of Yahshua's messages, rather than the exact quotations. Let us note an example:
“… Yahshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37,38 KJV).
Dropping the flowery figures of speech, the real message is: “One day my disciples will receive the Holy Spirit in a most powerful way” (John 3:39; Acts 2:4).
Compare John's report (above) with Lukes report on the same topic:
“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children; how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him?” (Luke 11:13).
Misleading the Opposition
On many occasions Yahshua spoke in metaphors and in ambiguous parables to purposely mislead the opposition.
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. … Therefore speak I unto them in parables; because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand …” (Mt. 13:10-15).
“… unto them that are without (cf. Rev. 22:15), all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and ,not perceive; and hearing may hear, and not understand; lest at anytime they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them” (Mark 4:11,12).
Another example: “Yahshua said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). He spoke of his death and resurrection, not the temple building (John 2:21,22).
On some occasions, even his disciples did not understand his parables, and asked him to explain (Mt. 13:36; Mark 8:14-17).
On other occasions Yahshua answered questions with questions; often, with questions they did not understand, or could not respond to (Mark 11:29; 12:34b). On still other occasions, he purposely made them angry, so that they wished to kill him (Mt. 23:17,19,24,25,33; Mark 7:19-23; John 7:32-46).
Yahshua Pre-existed (In the Father's Plan)
Evidently Yahshua pre-existed, but only in the sense that he was in the Father's glorious plans, and had been since the foundation of the world (John 17:5, 24), {See the paper dealing with this Scripture}. In the same sense, Yahshua was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). Obviously, he was not literally and actually killed before the world was made, but it was in the Father's plan that the Messiah would be slain to redeem mankind.
In a similar way and in the same sense, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” That is, he went out (according to plan) preaching by the authority of heaven; that is, by Yahweh's authority.
Since both the Father and the plans were in heaven, Yahshua did, in this sense, come down from heaven. Therefore, when he had completed all assignments planned for his first coming, he ascended to heaven where he was before” (in Yahweh's plan) (John 6:62). Remember, Yahshua spoke in parables for the express purpose of blinding the Jewish opposition (Mt. 13:10-15; Mark 4:11,12).
Every Good Gift Comes Down From Above
Yahshua “came down from heaven.” A similar statement reads as follows:
“Every good gift and every perfect gift IS FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, …” (James 1:17).
James spoke of spiritual gifts in particular, but this is true of everything, including the physical blessings we receive. Take the lowly potato: we dig it from the ground. However, if it were not for the “blessings which come down from above,” the ground would not produce the potato for our use. All good gifts come down from above, from the Father of lights. This truth can be expressed in any one, or all, of the following ways:
Gifts from above, Gifts from heaven
Blessings of heaven, Blessings from YahwehAs noted above, James spoke especially of spiritual blessings. Undoubtedly, our greatest spiritual blessing is Yahshua, the Messiah. He wa
s in the Father's plan, even before the world was made (Eph. 1:10; RSV; 1 Peter 1:20), therefore Yahshua's coming is a “good and perfect gift from above” (James 1:17). Just as the lowly potato appears in the ground as a gift from above, so Yahshua (born of a woman) appeared as a gift from above. Yahshua, as well as the potato, had ancestors, not a pre-existence, as indicated in the following Scriptures:David, “… being a prophet, and knowing that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to him, that of THE FRUIT OF HIS LOINS, according to the FLESH, he would raise up Messiah to sit on his [David's] throne; …” (Acts 2:30; Rev. 5:5; 22:16; Heb. 7:14; Jer. 33:20-22).
We have considered the blessings which come down from above. On some occasions evil also comes down from above – from Yahweh” (Micah 1:12). On this occasion Yahweh brought it about by the use of invading armies who took the people captive (Micah 1:6,16). No pre-existence was involved.
John's Baptism
Yahshua asked the opposition, “The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or form men?” (Mt. 21:25; Mark 11:30; Luke 20:4).
Obviously, John's baptism was “from heaven.” Metonymy is used here. “Heaven” an euphemism, an expression indicating the authority of heaven; an epithet designating Yahweh, the ruler in heaven. Yahweh approved and supported John, his preaching, his baptism, and his work. Just as the baptism of John came from heaven, so Yahshua came from heaven. Both John and Yahshua were approved (authorized) by Yahweh – “our Father who is in heaven” (Mt. 6:9).
Other Scriptures speak in a similar fashion, as is indicated by these references:
As opposed to earthly envy, sensual and devilish thoughts and conduct, “… the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits. …” (James 3:16,17).
“They set their mouth against the heavens, …” (Ps. 73:9).
“I have sinned against heaven …” (Luke 15:18,21).
The thought is, “wisdom from above,” and the “heaven(s): are euphemisms for Yahweh and his authority and his influence.
Even the expression, the “kingdom of heaven,” is revealed. The kingdom is not in heaven. Instead it was (and will be) on the earth. However, it is planned and authorized by him who is in heaven; Yahweh, the Most High El.
Conclusion
How can we be sure the above understanding is correct? We can be sure because Scriptures in the Old and New Testaments indicate the following evidences:
There is only one Yahweh (Neh. 9:6; Ps. 83:18), therefore Yahshua was never a Yahweh. See the paper, “One Lone Yahweh.”
There is only one true El (Isa 43:10,11; John 17:3), therefore Yahshua was never an El.
There is only one true Eloah (Ps. 18:31; 114:4), therefore Yahshua was never an Eloah.
There is only one true Elohim (Isa. 45:5,6; 46:6), therefore Yahshua was never an Elohim. See the paper, “Elohim: Singular or Plural?”
True Deity does not die (Deut. 32:40; Dan. 12:7), therefore Yahshua was never Deity, because he died (Acts 3:15).
Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13, NEB), therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as an angel.
The fleshly (physical) body comes first. Only later comes the spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:46). This speaks directly about Yahshua's person. Therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as a spiritual being.
Yahshua was born of a woman (Gal. 4:4), therefore Yahshua was truly flesh and blood; a human being (Heb. 2:14).
Yahshua was the “fruit of David's loins” (Acts 2:30), therefore Yahshua was fully human – flesh and blood.
Yahshua had the same origin as his brethern (Heb. 2:11), therefore Yahshua, originally, was not Deity.
Man was created a little lower than the angels, therefore Yahshua was, originally, lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6-9).
Moses predicted that Yahweh would raise up from among his brethern a prophet “like unto me” (Deut. 18:15-19). If Yahshua was Deity in human form, he would not have been “like” Moses.
Yahshua spoke in parables to purposely mislead the opposition, therefore some of his statements must not be taken literally.
Yahshua purposely angered the opposition, therefore they developed a strong desire to kill him.
Only the Apostle John reported that Yahshua came down from heaven. If literally true, we would expect other writers to report this. Since they did not, we must except this as a figure of speech, indicating that Yahshua's approval and authority came down from heaven – from Yahweh above.
The baptism of John was also “from heaven.” Did John or his baptism pre-exist?
All good and perfect gifts “come down from above, from the Father of lights.” This includes the lowly potato as well as Yahshua the Nazarene.
Both Yahshua and the potato were here, not because they pre-existed, because both had ancestors.
Brethern, Scriptures indicate Yahshua existed, even before the world began, but only in Yahweh's glorious plan (Eph. 1:9, RSV). Since both Yahweh and his plan were in heaven, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” This statement is a figure of speech, indicating Yahshua's authority was from above; from Yahweh, the Most High El.
Come, Yahshua Messiah!
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993Quote (t8 @ Dec. 17 2011,09:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 15 2011,23:28) T8………..Wrong MY version is —- Flesh then joined with Divine Nature > Death to self by Davine Nature> then death to body> resurrection of body> Flesh with Divine Nature added back.
Gene you are clearly wrong on this.
Let's look at scripture.Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.So let's look at the order which is irrefutable unless you deny the scripture itself.
Having the nature of God > Demoted/Emptying > TAKING the nature of man > Humbled himself > Death > Exalted > and we know from elsewhere that he is at the right-hand of the Father in the glory he had with him before the world began.
Do I hear an amen Gene, or will we continue to hear from you that this scripture is wrong?
I suspect the latter because in my experience man is generally stubborn in accepting the truth to his own detriment.
T8…………….(BEING) means EXISTING in the NATURE of GOD, So when was he “BEING” in that NATURE, was it not when he was on this earth. Was he not the exact representation of GOD the FATHER , Was not GOD portrayed in BODILY FORM (IN) the body of Jesus. Did he not reckoned Jesus as a Temple he was living (IN). If you think Jesus did not have the Nature of GOD while he was on this earth as a Man you are grossly mistaken T8. “THE FATHER (in) ME (HE) DOES THE WORKS”.You have not yet come to see GOD (IN) the MAN JESUS brother. You are therefore in error. IMO
Problem is T8 you do not understand what SPIRIT really is, so you do not understand how GOD can be in his creation and outside of it also. I tell you the truth if GOD the Father was a Flesh being he would have been no difference then Jesus was. Remember Jesus put HIS WILL to death so whose WILL was Being Done on this earth T8? was it not the FATHERS WILL and was that WILL Not (IN) the Man Jesus.
He did not consider equality with God something to be Grasped at while he was ON this earth with that Godly Nature (in) him via the Holy Spirit of God .
All that Jesus did on this earth was to the Glory of God and because it was done BY GOD who was (IN) him while he was ON THIS EARTH> Phil 2:6-11…..> has nothing to do with any previous earth existence at all T8. Frank and Me both are right on this brother.
Remember Thomas Said,
my Lord (AND) MY GOD, Yes T8, Jesus had the nature of God while he was on this EARTH, we can also have that Nature.
peace and love to you and yours T8…………………………..gene
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 16 2011,18:31) Actually, my view is, when biblical Scriptures are involved, only one witness is needed. However, something as outstanding as this would surely have been mentioned by other New Testament writers if this is to be accepted as literally true. From the list above, we see that no other New Testament writer records that “Yahshua came down from heaven.”
Not only did John directly quote the words Jesus spoke in 6:38, but the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking answered, “We know this dude. We know he is from Nazareth. How come he's saying he came down from heaven?”They knew what Jesus said. They just didn't know why he would say such a thing.
But the clincher is when Jesus told them they would see him ASCEND to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE.
Isn't it interesting that many of them did actually see him ascend to where he was BEFORE?
Just put the words together, Frank. “Came DOWN FROM heaven”. “ASCEND to where I WAS BEFORE”. It doesn't take rocket science. And it surely doesn't take a long quote from some dude trying to discredit John's ability to directly quote Jesus' words.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 16 2011,18:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,10:49) It's funny that Frank's defense to Proverbs 8 is the feminine form of the words, yet he is willing to completely ignore the singular, masculine form of the pronouns associated with “the Word” in John 1. Frank, if wisdom cannot be Jesus because of feminine pronouns, then the Word cannot be an “it” because of the masculine pronouns.
You'll have to give in on one or the other, right?
Mike,Words are personified with both feminine and masculine pronouns in Scripture translation. It makes no difference whether words are personified with either feminine or masculine pronouns, they are still not actual beings or persons. Just as wisdom in Proverbs 8:1- is an 'it' so is “word” in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 an “it”.
And how about Rev 19:13? Is “the Word of God” an “it” in that verse too?Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,08:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,08:39) Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 17 2011,08:18) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,07:48) Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42) Quote
Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture!————–
That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene
Patsy,Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously.
Your sensitivity towards a member that has not been here because of two deaths in the Family is striking…. I thank you very much… I am not going to bother with you again… believe what you want, most do it any way …..
Patsy,My response to you has nothing to do with any one who died in your family, since I was quite unaware of any death in your family. I will believe what I want! I am most certainly not going to believe what I don't want!
Oh! Sorry! Pastry! Now I want a coffee and doughnut!
You are as ignjoring as the come both to what a person goes through and to Scriptures, denying John 1:1 and verse 14 in particular…and this beautiful explaination John gives inRev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Is there any other being that could fit this description of who Jesus was?
No….
And we who truly believe the Scriptures will not worship Jesus but Honor Him as KING OF KINGS ANS LORD OF LORDS….
And worship Almighty Jehovah God only….. that is pleasing to Him……
IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 17 2011,11:36) T8…………….(BEING) means EXISTING in the NATURE of GOD, So when was he “BEING” in that NATURE, was it not when he was on this earth. Was he not the exact representation of GOD the FATHER , Was not GOD portrayed in BODILY FORM (IN) the body of Jesus. Did he not reckoned Jesus as a Temple he was living (IN). If you think Jesus did not have the Nature of GOD while he was on this earth as a Man you are grossly mistaken T8. “THE FATHER (in) ME (HE) DOES THE WORKS”.
No Gene.You err.
It certainly says that he EXISTED with divine nature and after emptying himself (demoting himself) he was found as man.
There are so many scriptures like this that it seems weird that you do not take them for what they say, rather you prefer to embark on a battle to change every scripture one by one to toward your own understanding.
Twisting scripture is highly not recommended because it is deception and is truly against the work of God that put the blessed scripture into our hands.
We cannot follow you on this Gene. You should know that we refuse to follow your example because we do not fear man, rather we fear and love God.
T8………..If you fear God then you would believe what Jesus Said right?. Where did Jesus ever say he has a “PREEXISTENT” Life, before his earth existences. and the scriptures you speak of were changes in many way a long time ago forcing the text, the very words you guy's hang on to are themselves translated 80 or so different ways, If you believe twisting scriptures is deception them you and those who believe in a Preexistent Jesus are greately decieved brother. While you yourselves may not be doing the twisting (in your minds) you are buying into those who have twisted them.
Tell us why would Paul address Jesus as a Pre-earth being in Philippians anyway, what point would that play as an example to those Christian Philippians . How could they relate with Jesus as a Alain being of some kind disguised as a Human. Its like you strain out a gnat and swallow a Camel.
T8……….Its not about fear any man at all its about LOVE for the TRUTH. and remember it says “becasue they recieved not the love of truth God would send to them a strong deluding spirit (intellect) in order for them to what T8? believe a lie ,and that deluding Spirit (Intellect) has deluded and decieved most all of Christendom into believing Jesus was NOT an actual 100% HUMAN MAN just like we are in every way without exception. That Spirit of delusion Pushes Jesus away from Mankind , it put him on a Pestle above all the rest of mankind, and causes men to worship him and Idolize Him, and that is Just the opposite of what God and Jesus had in mind. This teaching separates God work (IN MANKIND) to God working in an ANGEL or some kind of Demigod or and other GOD, you are simply part of that false teaching T8 by pushing Jesus as a Preexistent , angel or whatever, i really don't believe none of you know what he was or for that matter Now really (IS), I see Jesus now still a SON OF MAN, Just as he said he was 80 or so times., You see Him as a morphed Angels which he “NEVER” said ONCE He was. Jesus said “when the Son of MAN returns , you say when the Angel of GOD returns, Jesus said He could do Nothing by himself, You say God created all thing through HIM, But God said He did it” ALONE and BY HIMSELF”, Jesus said the words He spoke were (NOT HIS) you say He was the Word Himself. Your fear it is not from me , it is about the truth that you fear T8. Because what Frank and I have told you IS the TRUTH.
You have yet to even see that GOD the FATHER was TRULY (IN) Jesus, at least i have never heard you admit that anyway, even though Jesus said it many times, You believe that it was Jesus that said “DESTROY this TEMPLE and IN there days (IN) shall raise (IT) up”. You believe it was Jesus that said “O Jerusalem Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets and stone those sent unto you, how often would (I) have gathered you as a hen gathers her chick , but you would not”. Therefore you house is left to you desolate and you shall no longer see me until you say Blessed is he that comes in the name of the LORD”> You do not understand that was Not Jesus speaking that was GOD the FATHER , first person speaking through HIM. You separate GOD from His word by saying his word was Jesus When in fact God's Word is GOD and they are SPIRIT(INTELLECT) and that Is what LIFE IS> “for man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the (what T8?) MOUTH OF GOD that shall a man live by” .
I am sad for you T8 that you can't see any of this brother, my hope and Prayer is that God will enlighten you on these thing Brother, and bring you out of those false “Preexistence” teaching before Jesus comes and abolishes those teachings as Paul said he would. Then you will recieve Shame for being part of those teachings, IMO.
Peace and Love to you and yours T8…………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 19 2011,03:27) T8………..If you fear God then you would believe what Jesus Said right?. Where did Jesus ever say he has a “PREEXISTENT” Life, before his earth existences. and the scriptures you speak of were changes in many way a long time ago forcing the text, the very words you guy's hang on to are themselves translated 80 or so different ways
Jesus never said he didn't and he did say things ascend and descend. He also spoke in parables much of the time, and sometimes he spoke plainly.And your comment about 80 different ways you can translate the texts of course means that your version is one of 80 variations, whereas, we have the plain text meaning and 80 different scriptures.
Seems weird that every single scripture that talks about Jesus being with the Father before the world, or having divine nature then coming as a man, or that God made all things through him are all wrong.
I could understand that a scripture here and there could be mistranslated, but you are taking a line that wipes out many many scriptures.
Chances are you are wrong on that alone, and if we dig deeper, your view falls flat on it's face.
Gene, we believe the following text and you do not.
Why try to talk us out of our faith and belief in what scripture teaches us.
You are trying to turn people away from the truth.If I uttered these exact words below, you would contest them.
Therefore it is you against scripture.
You have a problem with scripture, not really us because we believe the scripture.
We didn't write it, so attack the scripture, not the messenger.Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.T8 are you not found in the appearance as a Man also. It is plain Paul is talking about a Past time and that Pastime was when Jesus was on this earth. Paul was in no way relating to any time period before Jesus came into existence on the earth, that is clear if you understand what Paul's Point was, and if Paul was talking about his before Earth existences I Believe he would clearly have said Before he came to this earth as a Human Being he existed as a God or Angel or whatever. And whats even more interesting none of the other disciples said He preexisted his berth on this earth surely they would have all at least mentioned it seeing it is such a big thing to all you preexistence and Trinitarians, It would have been expounded very very clearly, don't you think?, and we would not be having this conversation at all now would we T8, Your accusing me of doing exactly what you preexistences are doing. Now that if indeed humorous, you need to produce facts not suppositions based on you preconceived ideologies brother. IMO
Did you even read what FRANK POSTED?, forget about what i have said do you even think about what FRANK and OTHERS here have POSTED. Can't you see T8 the only difference between you and the Trinitarians is they believe Jesus was a GOD and YOU believe He was a Morphed Angel of some kind, other than that both Trinitarians and Preexistences are exactly alike, You both believe GOD created everything through Jesus even through God Said He did it “ALONE and BY HIMSELF” and i am changing scriptures right?.
peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene
Gene, Frank doesn't post anything from what I can see, he copies and pastes stuff.
If I am talking to someone about a subject and a person has a different view, then I want to hear why they believe as they do.
Too many Christians do not understand things and just parrot or copy and paste things, and Frank has not given any explanation to the scriptures that we believe. Not anything of substance or even compelling.I read your posts sometimes Gene, because I know you wrote them and thus you are in a position to defend them.
Not so with Frank. He doesn't defend anything because he doesn't post his own words, thus he is not able to defend his posts. And also they are quite long and I don't jhave time to slice and dice what he does post as it would take way to long to do that.
I dialogue with people who can answer a simple question with a simple answer. Long-winded posts remind me of EULA's or the small print in a contract, you practically need a lawyer to go over them because they can hide many nasties or can easily hide things that are not good.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 19 2011,10:52) T8 are you not found in the appearance as a Man also. It is plain Paul is talking about a Past time and that Pastime was when Jesus was on this earth. Paul was in no way relating to any time period before Jesus came into existence on the earth, that is clear if you understand what Paul's Point was, and if Paul was talking about his before Earth existences I Believe he would clearly have said Before he came to this earth as a Human Being he existed as a God or Angel or whatever. And whats even more interesting none of the other disciples said He preexisted his berth on this earth surely they would have all at least mentioned it seeing it is such a big thing to all you preexistence and Trinitarians, It would have been expounded very very clearly, don't you think?, and we would not be having this conversation at all now would we T8, Your accusing me of doing exactly what you preexistences are doing. Now that if indeed humorous, you need to produce facts not suppositions based on you preconceived ideologies brother. IMO Did you even read what FRANK POSTED?, forget about what i have said do you even think about what FRANK and OTHERS here have POSTED. Can't you see T8 the only difference between you and the Trinitarians is they believe Jesus was a GOD and YOU believe He was a Morphed Angel of some kind, other than that both Trinitarians and Preexistences are exactly alike, You both believe GOD created everything through Jesus even through God Said He did it “ALONE and BY HIMSELF” and i am changing scriptures right?.
peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene
Gene, I don't think either of us existed with divine nature, emptied ourselves, found ourselves as men, then to die, be resurrected, and in the glory we had with the Father before the world began.And yet you have to say yes because Jesus is in no way different to us.
However, I haven't heard one person (not even yourself) claim this for themself.
If you really believe Jesus is a man just like us and was created as a man with no previous existence in a different nature or form, then claim Philippians 2:6-8 for yourself. And if not, why not?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,17:40) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,10:11) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:17) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,08:05) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:01) Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth.
Frankproverb:8:22-30
Proverbs 8:22-30 does NOT plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. NOWHERE in this passage does it ever make mention of anyone being in heaven before they were born. Proverbs 8:22-30
frankif you do not recognize Christ in Proverb 8;22-30,may be it is because you do not belong to him ,??
Christ know who his his ,and the ones from him also know because he made them know that they belong to him,
Pierre
Pierre,Proverb 8:22-30 is clearly speaking of an attribute of Yahweh which is wisdom personified in the feminine gender. Read the context:
Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand; beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud: …
for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her …
Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn out its seven pillars. She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table. She has sent out her maids, and she calls from the highest point of the city. “Let all who are simple come in here!” she says to those who lack judgment.
Frankin french many things are either masculine or feminine ,and it as nothing to do exept for the phonetics ,
masculine for the word TABLE does not sound right ,but the feminine does so it is feminine ,
anyone that would not like this as a personal problem ,
but you would not understand this ,you still in English gramar,
Pierre
Hi Pierre.
Sounds like Spanish.
Masculine “o” feminine “a”.Also Frank, attributes are often attributed to persons.
Jesus said he was the truth. And he is called the Word of God.
Truth and logos are certainly attributes, but they are also titles given to a person.Even us humans have names that are often attributes.
Many men and women in the Bible were given new names because in Christ, we are a new creation and the old has gone.
Abram became Abraham, Sarai became Sarah, and Jacob became Israel.
Jesus named Simon-Cephas (Peter) and Saul became Paul.Now let's take Peter for example which I think means stone or rock.
Does that mean that Peter or any person cannot be called a rock because a rock is an object that is not the person.Does a person called Grace nullify the grace of God?
No of course not.
Now Jesus as the truth and the way, as well as the logos, glory of God, does not in anyway take away all these attributes from the Father. Frank, names are more than just sounds to distinguish individuals. So be not surprised that Wisdom may be given birth or that the Logos can be with God.
As one torch of fire lightens another, it doesn't lessen the original torch but rather gives birth to a new one.
Often scripture talks about attributes of God and other times the same word is describing a person.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,00:46) Hi Pierre. Sounds like Spanish.
Masculine “o” feminine “a”.Also Frank, attributes are often attributed to persons.
Jesus said he was the truth. And he is called the Word of God.
Truth and logos are certainly attributes, but they are also titles given to a person.Even us humans have names that are often attributes.
Many men and women in the Bible were given new names because in Christ, we are a new creation and the old has gone.
Abram became Abraham, Sarai became Sarah, and Jacob became Israel.
Jesus named Simon-Cephas (Peter) and Saul became Paul.Now let's take Peter for example which I think means stone or rock.
Does that mean that Peter or any person cannot be called a rock because a rock is an object that is not the person.Does a person called Grace nullify the grace of God?
No of course not.
Now Jesus as the truth and the way, as well as the logos, glory of God, does not in anyway take away all these attributes from the Father. Frank, names are more than just sounds to distinguish individuals. So be not surprised that Wisdom may be given birth or that the Logos can be with God.
As one torch of fire lightens another, it doesn't lessen the original torch but rather gives birth to a new one.
Often scripture talks about attributes of God and other times the same word is describing a person.
T8this is absolutly true
Quote As one torch of fire lightens another, it doesn't lessen the original torch but rather gives birth to a new one. Often scripture talks about attributes of God and other times the same word is describing a person.
but unless you are true and looking for truth ,then you will find it ,but if we are not have any truth in us then we would not beable to see those things ,this is the reason the Christ could open and explain scriptures that many knew but could not understand ,Christ was the truth in person.
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2011,00:46) Hi Pierre. Sounds like Spanish.
Masculine “o” feminine “a”.Also Frank, attributes are often attributed to persons.
Jesus said he was the truth. And he is called the Word of God.
Truth and logos are certainly attributes, but they are also titles given to a person.Even us humans have names that are often attributes.
Many men and women in the Bible were given new names because in Christ, we are a new creation and the old has gone.
Abram became Abraham, Sarai became Sarah, and Jacob became Israel.
Jesus named Simon-Cephas (Peter) and Saul became Paul.Now let's take Peter for example which I think means stone or rock.
Does that mean that Peter or any person cannot be called a rock because a rock is an object that is not the person.Does a person called Grace nullify the grace of God?
No of course not.
Now Jesus as the truth and the way, as well as the logos, glory of God, does not in anyway take away all these attributes from the Father. Frank, names are more than just sounds to distinguish individuals. So be not surprised that Wisdom may be given birth or that the Logos can be with God.
As one torch of fire lightens another, it doesn't lessen the original torch but rather gives birth to a new one.
Often scripture talks about attributes of God and other times the same word is describing a person.
T8
yes similar ,we put feminie articles in front like ;la,elle,une,masculine would be ;un,le.lui.,this will tell you in a instant wish is wish F or M.this is absolutly true
Quote As one torch of fire lightens another, it doesn't lessen the original torch but rather gives birth to a new one. Often scripture talks about attributes of God and other times the same word is describing a person.
but unless you are true and looking for truth ,then you will find it ,but if we are not have any truth in us then we would not beable to see those things ,this is the reason the Christ could open and explain scriptures that many knew but could not understand ,Christ was the truth in person.
Pierre
Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 18 2011,03:53) Is there any other being that could fit this description of who Jesus was? No…. Irene
Hi Irene,No, Isaiah 53:1-12 and Psalm 22:1-31 are specifically about Jesus.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2011,09:08) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 21 2010,09:03) Hi Everyone, Our Preexistence
Yes, we all preexisted our physical flesh!
Thanks very much for your concern in this matter!
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)“The Word” in us!
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.More evidence:
Jer.1:5 Before I(YHVH) formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
and I(YHVH) ordained thee(Jeremiah) a prophet unto the nations.Jude:1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of
winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi edJ.
YOu quoted john 15: 27.—You have been with me from the beginning.
This is not saying from the beginning of time, but the beginning of his ministry.
WE are not from the beginning of time.WE dont pre exist,We are not from everlasting only God is.
John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with God.
The word of God has no beginning he was from everlasting with God.So why does he say “IN THE BEGINNING””?Because there was a beginning when the word of God spoke and started creating,The angels first I believe.
So we also were created; beginning in the whomb,but not by the will of God but by the will of man.Only Jesus was created in the whomb by the will of God,that makes him the only begotten son of God.This is how he made his word flesh,born as a human.The point here is that we do not pre exist.Since God is yesterday today and tomorrow; Therefore he already knew us before we are born; Does not mean that we always existed.
Thank you Ed J
wakeup.
Hi Wake-up,Why do you assume that they're different beginnings?
Stating what you believe is no proof whatsoever?
Do YOU have any “PROOF” of your assertion?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
