Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Not everything you say is wrong Gene, but you are against the scriptures that talk about Jesus existed in the form of God and emptying HIMSELF and COMING in the flesh.

In fact you deny both the divine nature and the coming in the flesh because you say that he didn't have divine nature or exist in the form of God and then as a result he neither emptied himself nor did he come in the flesh.

You deny this because you teach that he never existed and when he did, he was the flesh.

The antichrist spirit denies that Jesus came in the flesh, and is it a denial to say that he is the flesh itself?

Something for you to think about. And even as a man myself, I am not the flesh that houses me. Yet somehow Jesus is? I think you guys are reading too much from the word of man and not enough from the word of God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 15 2011,10:04)

T8……..> When Paul said that Jesus was already gone from earth , Paul was relating about his time on earth as a Human being, You preexistences move that time to before he even existed on earth Paul was talking about His earth existence, can't you understand that.

No Gene, the order is completely different to what you are saying.

Divine nature > Emptying > Flesh > Death > Resurrection > Back in the glory he had with the Father before the world began

Your version
Flesh > Death > Resurrection > Flesh

Your version is clearly not scriptures version.

You conveniently deny the divine beginning and the end glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

What on God's green Earth for? What is the point in hiding this scriptural truth?
I could understand if there was some temporal reward, but you do not even get that.

[Pastry]

Hi t8! I do agree with what you are saying…. Some on here and many out in so many Churches, do not have been enlightened by the truth now… Only those that are called out, now do…. How many times have we shown Gene those Scriptures, that plainly show us, that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father, before He came to earth…. That He had a glory with His Father, and then went back to that glory…and now is immortal and never will die again…… Just like the trinity, how many times have we shown some of our children and they don't understand….
One day they all,and I think soon, all will have to understand what our King of Kings and Lord of Lord, will tell them, or forever die in the Lake of Fire….
One thing is for certain Jesus will come again, and with His Saints will strike the nations with the wrath of God, and all will hear the truth….. To that day I am forever looking forward to….
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………..Wrong MY version is —- Flesh then joined with Divine Nature > Death to self by Davine Nature> then death to body> resurrection of body> Flesh with Divine Nature added back.

Your rendition is the same as trinitarians , becasue they also believe first was the Davine Nature (GOD) and then the incarnation of that Davine Nature as a Man Jesus> then death> then back to Glory of the DIVINE NATURE (GOD). So what if they believe he was a God and You believe He was a DIVINE Angel, How much difference is that seeing both have a “DIVINE NATURE”? Either way you are denying Jesus came into existence as a human being by his berth on this earth. Both you and the Trinitarians believe Jesus preexisted His berth on the earth as a DIVINE BEING>
That Davine nature is the LOGOS which was GOD (IN) him. And the still has that and so does all who have that divine Nature (IN) them by the same Spirit (INTELLECT) that give that Devin Nature to them just as (IT) did to the MAN JESUS.

Where have i said Jesus existed on this earth without Devin Nature , no i never said that he did exist on this earth without that nature (IT) was IN him as the LOGOS of GOD, that same Nature can be in anyone who receives (IT). Paul is clearly speaking of the time of His earthly existence when he walked this earth he found himself as a man Just as we do, except he had a predestined Status and was brought forth by the Holy Spirit a second Adam man who had GOD the FATHER (IN) Him, but because he had that advantage he did not use it to rob GOD of his glory and make himself equal with him which he could have easily done becasue of all the Miricales that were done through him by GOD. But instead made himself into a servant of God and Man even though he had this status as the firstborn into he kingdom of GOD from man kind, he still walked humbly with GOD and man. Jesus called himself a SON OF MAN over 80 times it is mentioned in scriptures so when are you going to rally believe that . No where doe it say Jesus existed as an Angel or GOD Prior to his berth on this earth. Paul was using Jesus' example as a MAN who had God's Nature (IN) him and still humbled himself as an example for us all to follow his foot steps because we are JUST LIKE him in every way, that is If you have GOD'S Holy Spirit (IN) you also. You take this simple example of what Paul was saying and Build a Complete False Doctrine of Preexistence on it, which the Preexistence of Jesus before his earthly life was not even what Paul was talking about.

Preexistences simply force the text to come out that way, like where it says the Glory he had before the world was , is not saying he existed before the world was , that glory was his before he ever existed, just as Cyrus the Kings Glory was before he ever existed and even Jeremiah also had that glory as a Prophet of God before he ever exist as a born human being.

T8, look God was not dealing with “Morphed” Angels with Davine Natures, He was working (IN) mankind and he was (IN) The second MAN ADAM Jesus, as being who came into creation by his berth on this earth Just as we have. Our potential is the same as Jesus' is, he is from humanity and will always be a Human being a SON of MAN and in the same way as we are Son's of the Living God also, because GOD the Father is in Him and can be (IN) us also, Via his HOLY SPIRIT which is the LOGOS (intellect) of GOD. Just that simple T8, IMO

peace and love to you and yours and Happy Holy Days to your and your Family……………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 15 2011,07:22)

What you fail to realize Gene is that angels can come in the appearance of men. And we know that Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself and came in the flesh. You deny that he existed in the form of God. But we are simply believing that which is written. Give us one good reason as to why we should believe you over scripture. I don't think there is any good reason to do that.

T8…………Do you realize the Gnostic's preached the same thing only they said it was God that  come in the Form of a man.
Your both in effect saying God was tricking or fooling us, Jesus was not “TRULY” a REAL Man in the sense as we are, but was Disguised as a MAN , so the God of Truth and Jesus the Christ is made to be a liar, in your rendition of Jesus Preexistences and his whole work disguised as man was false because he was not “TRULY A MAN like we are . So should we just scrap the whole Idea i can attain to the SAME “FULL” STATURE of Christ.

Can't you see that false teaching separates Jesus for our exact Identity So we can  not truly relate with him as a Human Being?

So what did he overcome seeing he was different then we are , and if he already had eternal life , what did he achieve here on earth, was he just acting out a part like some play somewhere, all the time a phony pretending he was a SON Of MANKIND> He has no right to tell me to overcome EVEN as HE Did if indeed he was NOT EXACTLY LIKE ME in EVERY WAY> His EXAMPLE is nothing to me then.

This is what is produced in the minds and hearts of People by these false teachings , T8 Jesus was a MAN who had GOD Spirit (IN) him just as we are in every way without exception and the same things done (IN) and “THROUGH” Jesus can be done (IN) and “THROUGH” us also. I do not (SEPARATE) Jesus form my (IDENTITY) with Him as a HUMAN BEING, I do not relate with the FATHER any different then he does nothing more and nothing less. GOD is My FATHER JUST as He IS Jesus'. He was the First of the Human race to achieve God's intended Goal for us all and showed us all how to achieve that goal. IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother……………………..gene

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42)

Quote Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture! ————– That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene

Patsy,

Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously.

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,14:48)

Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42) Quote Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture! ————– That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene Patsy, Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously.

Yeah like those 60 pages and comments from others that I give here and expect you guys to believe ,because in my opinion that is what I believe and so it must be the truth ,me frank would not settle for anything less of what I want ,

IS THIS CLOSE TO WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN FRANK ?

Pierre

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:01)

Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”?

Frank

proverb:8:22-30

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,07:57)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,14:48) Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42) Quote Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture! ————– That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene Patsy, Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously. Yeah like those 60 pages and comments from others that I give here and expect you guys to believe ,because in my opinion that is what I believe and so it must be the truth ,me frank would not settle for anything less of what I want , IS THIS CLOSE TO WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN FRANK ? Pierre

Pierre,

How are you going to understand what I mean when you can't even properly convey to others what you mean to say? Your responses to me come out on this end to me as nothing but gibberish. I really have a problem understanding anyone who communicates in text with broken English. It is really quite difficult understanding what it is that you are trying to say when you do so. I really have no idea wht you just tried to say in your last post!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,08:05)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:01) Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? Frank proverb:8:22-30

Proverbs 8:22-30 does NOT plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. NOWHERE in this passage does it ever make mention of anyone being in heaven before they were born. Proverbs 8:22-30

[Pastry]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,07:48)

Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42) Quote Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture! ————– That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene Patsy, Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously.

Your sensitivity towards a member that has not been here because of two deaths in the Family is striking…. I thank you very much… I am not going to bother with you again… believe what you want, most do it any way …..

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 17 2011,08:18)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,07:48) Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42) Quote Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture! ————– That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene Patsy, Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously. Your sensitivity towards a member that has not been here because of two deaths in the Family is striking….  I thank you very much… I am not going to bother with you again… believe what you want, most do it any way …..

Patsy,

My response to you has nothing to do with any one who died in your family, since I was quite unaware of any death in your family. I will believe what I want! I am most certainly not going to believe what I don't want!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,08:39)

Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 17 2011,08:18) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,07:48) Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 15 2011,00:42) Quote Yes, it is in accordance with Scripture! ————– That is no answer at all, no Scripture given… that is backing out of explanation and it is not according to what Jesus said, that they do not worship the Father……..and you do not either by worship to Jesus… Almighty God is not pleased with those that do….Irene Patsy, Yes, it is an answer. I have given answers previously. I am surly not going to repeat myself over and over again. I would suggest that you go back and catch up on what was posted previously. Your sensitivity towards a member that has not been here because of two deaths in the Family is striking….  I thank you very much… I am not going to bother with you again… believe what you want, most do it any way ….. Patsy, My response to you has nothing to do with any one who died in your family, since I was quite unaware of any death in your family. I will believe what I want! I am most certainly not going to believe what I don't want!

Oh! Sorry! Pastry! Now I want a coffee and doughnut!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 15 2011,23:28)

T8………..Wrong  MY version is —- Flesh then joined with Divine Nature > Death to self by Davine Nature> then death to body> resurrection of body> Flesh with Divine Nature added back.

Gene you are clearly wrong on this.
Let's look at scripture.

Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
  by taking the very nature of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
  he humbled himself
  by becoming obedient to death—
     even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
  and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
  in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
  to the glory of God the Father.

So let's look at the order which is irrefutable unless you deny the scripture itself.

Having the nature of God > Demoted/Emptying > TAKING the nature of man > Humbled himself > Death > Exalted > and we know from elsewhere that he is at the right-hand of the Father in the glory he had with him before the world began.

Do I hear an amen Gene, or will we continue to hear from you that this scripture is wrong?

I suspect the latter because in my experience man is generally stubborn in accepting the truth to his own detriment.

[Proclaimer]

Frank and Gene, we believe Philippians 2:6-11 and you guys do not.
Simple as that and no amount of links and copying and pasting can hide the fact that you deny Philippians 2:6-11.

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:17)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,08:05) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:01) Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? Frank proverb:8:22-30 Proverbs 8:22-30 does NOT plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. NOWHERE in this passage does it ever make mention of anyone being in heaven before they were born. Proverbs 8:22-30

frank

if you do not recognize Christ in Proverb 8;22-30,may be it is because you do not belong to him ,??

Christ know who his his ,and the ones from him also know because he made them know that they belong to him,

Pierre

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,10:11)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:17) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2011,08:05) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 17 2011,15:01) Scripture nowhere plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth? “Jesus IS God!”? Frank proverb:8:22-30 Proverbs 8:22-30 does NOT plainly shows us that Yahshua was in Heaven with his and our Father Yahweh before he was born here on Earth. NOWHERE in this passage does it ever make mention of anyone being in heaven before they were born. Proverbs 8:22-30 frank if you do not recognize Christ in Proverb 8;22-30,may be it is because you do not belong to him ,?? Christ know who his his ,and the ones from him also know because he made them know that they belong to him, Pierre

Pierre,

Proverb 8:22-30 is clearly speaking of an attribute of Yahweh which is wisdom personified in the feminine gender. Read the context:

Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand; beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud: …

for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her …

Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn out its seven pillars. She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table. She has sent out her maids, and she calls from the highest point of the city. “Let all who are simple come in here!” she says to those who lack judgment.

[mikeboll64]

It's funny that Frank's defense to Proverbs 8 is the feminine form of the words, yet he is willing to completely ignore the singular, masculine form of the pronouns associated with “the Word” in John 1.  

Frank, if wisdom cannot be Jesus because of feminine pronouns, then the Word cannot be an “it” because of the masculine pronouns.

You'll have to give in on one or the other, right?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 17 2011,09:18)

Frank and Gene, we believe Philippians 2:6-11 and you guys do not. Simple as that and no amount of links and copying and pasting can hide the fact that you deny Philippians 2:6-11.

t8,

We believe Philippians 2:6-11:

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

[Author]

Posts