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Quote (t8 @ Dec. 13 2011,07:00) Not only does scripture teach that Jesus was with the Father before the world began, but so does the Book of Enoch.
In addition, the second century fathers also believed this.But the fact that the bible teaches this is enough.
To teach this has nothing to do with being hell bent.
Try heaven bent.
t8,As you know I do not believe that Scripture teaches “that Jesus was with the Father before the world began”. The Book of Enoch was not considered canonical. Anyone in the second century that believed that the Messiah pre-existed his birth I would definitely not consider to be related to me as a “father”. In fact, I would not even consider them to be related to me as a “brother” in like precious belief. YOUR so-called “Church Fathers” had to believe that the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being or their “Triune God” would not have a leg to stand on!
frank
Quote Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word! It is really quite simple! Father Yahweh says that He will not give HIS esteem (“glory”) to another. The esteem (“glory”) that Father Yahweh gave to Yahshua is the esteem that he is His only begotten [first born from the dead] son, not that he is “God”. (glory = esteem) =wrong the glory is the reputation of being truthful and so be true,and his truth ;only God his and has truth in him this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do
this is why truth his found to be in him and light ,and because that truth was given to his disciples they now have so recieved the glory shared with Christ ,and any one who is in that truth will and share that glory with his disciples ,
so the glory is given to Christ by his father then from Christ it is given his disciples (apostles)and from there to anyone who share truth this not our own but God's,
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Ex 16:7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?”
Ex 16:10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
Ex 24:16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
Ex 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
Ex 29:43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.
Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”Nu 14:21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,
Nu 14:22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—1Ch 16:10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1Ch 16:24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples1Ch 16:35 Cry out, “Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise.”Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.Lk 21:27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Jn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”
Jn 15:8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.Ro 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,07:43) frank Quote Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word! It is really quite simple! Father Yahweh says that He will not give HIS esteem (“glory”) to another. The esteem (“glory”) that Father Yahweh gave to Yahshua is the esteem that he is His only begotten [first born from the dead] son, not that he is “God”. (glory = esteem) =wrong the glory is the reputation of being truthful and so be true,and his truth ;only God his and has truth in him this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do
this is why truth his found to be in him and light ,and because that truth was given to his disciples they now have so recieved the glory shared with Christ ,and any one who is in that truth will and share that glory with his disciples ,
so the glory is given to Christ by his father then from Christ it is given his disciples (apostles)and from there to anyone who share truth this not our own but God's,
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Ex 16:7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?”
Ex 16:10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
Ex 24:16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
Ex 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
Ex 29:43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.
Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”Nu 14:21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,
Nu 14:22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—1Ch 16:10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1Ch 16:24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples1Ch 16:35 Cry out, “Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise.”Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.Lk 21:27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Jn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”
Jn 15:8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.Ro 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Pierre
Pierre,So, you also like to baffle others with the “glory” word!
GLORY
No fewer than 25 Hebrew words are rendered by doxa in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Of these 25 words, 7 are more common, the most important being kabad. This Greek word doxa of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, and the doxa of the New Testament, are usually rendered “glory” in the English versions, a translation of the Latin gloria. If we first look at the Hebrew Old Testament, we find that kabad has usually been rendered “honour” when applied to man, but rendered “glory” when applied to our Heavenly Father. Why were they so keen to apply the word “glory” to our Mighty One? What is the meaning of the word “glory”? Funk & Wagnalls, New Standard Dictionary of the English Language, under “glory”, gives the religious symbolic meaning, “In religious symbolism, the complete representation of an emanation of light from the person of a sanctified being consisting of the aureole and the nimbus;” and further on, “The quality of being radiant or shining; brilliancy brightness; luster; as the glory of the sun;” and further on, “A sunburst; any ring of light; a halo.” John Ogilvie The Comprehensive English Dictionary, under “glory”, explains it as, “splendour, as of the sun.” Similar statements are made by The Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's New International Dictionary. The latter states, “glory is the general term for the aureola and the nimbus”—aureola being the halo or ring round the sun, and nimbus being the sun-disc.
This meaning, as well as the word itself, would be acceptable if the commonly used Hebrew words of the Old Testament, and the Greek word doxa, have had the same meaning of sun-radiance or circles of light. However, we do not find any trace of sun-radiance or emanation of light in any of these Hebrew words, nor in the Greek doxa. Once more we are rudely awakened to the fact of the adoption of Sun-worship into the Church, the fusion of Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. In the dictionaries, encyclopaedias and ecclesiastical books, we find many illustrations of our Saviour, the Virgin, and the saints, encircled with radiant circles or emanations of light around them.
What are the meanings then of the Scriptural Hebrew words? Kabad means honour, dignity or esteem in its figurative sense, as well as weight, in its literal sense. Pa'ar means repute. Halal means praiseworthiness or praise. Adar and hadar means to make great. Tipharah means repute. Shavak means to esteem. The Greek word doxa simply means opinion, estimation, esteem, repute or dignity, coming from the verb dokeo, which means “to seem”.
Thus, the ecclesiastical symbolic meaning of the word “glory”, being that of radiance or emanation of light as from the sun, is totally un-Scriptural. It is strong evidence of the Church's solarisation of our Messiah and of His Father. The Church identified Elohim with the S
un deity, which was the prevailing deity of the Roman emperors, the Roman capital and its empire. However, not only does the concept of “glory” stem from Sun-worship, but we also find proof of “glory” (gloria) as having been a Roman goddess, discovered in the form of an icon personified by a woman, the upper part of her body almost naked, holding a circle on which are the zodiac signs. Pauly-Wissowa also defines Gloria as a personification of fame, the word being found very frequently on the coins of Constantine and his successors. Besides the frequent occurrence of the word Gloria on the coins, the image of this goddess is found on two coins, one of Constantius II and one of Constantine II.
We should therefore eliminate the word “glory” from our religious vocabulary for three reasons:
1) We have been commanded in Exod. 23:13 to “make no mention of the names of other mighty ones, nor let it be heard from your mouth”—especially in our worship, applying these names to the One we love, and His Son.
2) The concept of the word “glory” in religious symbolism, as we read in Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary, is that of the emanation or radiance of light, as of the sun. This is proof of the solarisation of our beloved Saviour, identifying Him, as well as His Father, with the Sun-deity.
3) The Hebrew words, as well as Greek word doxa, do not carry the meaning of sun-radiance or sunlight at all. Therefore the word “glory” is an incorrect rendering of those words.
What then should we use instead of the word “glory”? Simply what the Hebrew words and the Greek word mean: “esteem”, or “high esteem” or “repute”. These words carry the meaning of the Scriptural words and do not stem from the names of deities as far as we know, and should be used wherever our versions have “glory”.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 13 2011,15:10) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,07:43) frank Quote Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word! It is really quite simple! Father Yahweh says that He will not give HIS esteem (“glory”) to another. The esteem (“glory”) that Father Yahweh gave to Yahshua is the esteem that he is His only begotten [first born from the dead] son, not that he is “God”. (glory = esteem) =wrong the glory is the reputation of being truthful and so be true,and his truth ;only God his and has truth in him this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do
this is why truth his found to be in him and light ,and because that truth was given to his disciples they now have so recieved the glory shared with Christ ,and any one who is in that truth will and share that glory with his disciples ,
so the glory is given to Christ by his father then from Christ it is given his disciples (apostles)and from there to anyone who share truth this not our own but God's,
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Ex 16:7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?”
Ex 16:10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
Ex 24:16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
Ex 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
Ex 29:43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.
Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”Nu 14:21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,
Nu 14:22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—1Ch 16:10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1Ch 16:24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples1Ch 16:35 Cry out, “Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise.”Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.Lk 21:27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Jn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”
Jn 15:8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.Ro 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Pierre
Pierre,So, you also like to baffle others with the “glory” word!
GLORY
No fewer than 25 Hebrew words are rendered by doxa in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Of these 25 words, 7 are more common, the most important being kabad. This Greek word doxa of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, and the doxa of the New Testament, are usually rendered “glory” in the English versions, a translation of the Latin gloria. If we first look at the Hebrew Old Testament, we find that kabad has usually been rendered “honour” when applied to man, but rendered “glory” when applied to our Heavenly Father. Why were they so keen to apply the word “glory” to our Mighty One? What is the meaning of the word “glory”? Funk & Wagnalls, New Standard Dictionary of the English Language, under “glory”, gives the religious symbolic meaning, “In religious symbolism, the complete representation of an emanation of light from the person of a sanctified being consisting of the aureole and the nimbus;” and further on, “The quality of being radiant or shining; brilliancy brightness; luster; as the glory of the sun;” and further on, “A sunburst; any ring of light; a halo.” John Ogilvie The Comprehensive English Dictionary, under “glory”, explains it as, “splendour, as of the sun.” Similar statements are made by The Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's New International Dictionary. The latter states, “glory is the general term for the aureola and the nimbus”—aureola being the halo or ring round the sun, and nimbus being the sun-disc.
This meaning, as well as the word itself, would be acceptable if the commonly used Hebrew words of the Old Testament, and the Greek word doxa, have had the same meaning of sun-radiance or circles of light. However, we do not find any trace of sun-radiance or emanation of light in any of these Hebrew words, nor in the Greek doxa. Once more we are rudely awakened to the fact of the adoption of Sun-worship into the Church, the fusion of Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. In the dictionaries, encyclopaedias and ecclesiastical books, we find many illustrations of our Saviour, the Virgin, and the saints, encircled with radiant circles or emanations of light around them.
What are the meanings then of the Scriptural Hebrew words? Kabad means honour, dignity or esteem in its figurative sense, as well as weight, in its literal sense. Pa'ar means repute. Halal means praiseworthiness or praise. Adar and hadar means to make great. Tipharah means repute. Shavak means to esteem. The Greek word doxa simply means opinion, estimation, esteem, repute or dignity, coming from the verb dokeo, which means “to seem”.
Thus, the ecclesiastical symbolic meaning of the word “glory”, being t
hat of radiance or emanation of light as from the sun, is totally un-Scriptural. It is strong evidence of the Church's solarisation of our Messiah and of His Father. The Church identified Elohim with the Sun deity, which was the prevailing deity of the Roman emperors, the Roman capital and its empire. However, not only does the concept of “glory” stem from Sun-worship, but we also find proof of “glory” (gloria) as having been a Roman goddess, discovered in the form of an icon personified by a woman, the upper part of her body almost naked, holding a circle on which are the zodiac signs. Pauly-Wissowa also defines Gloria as a personification of fame, the word being found very frequently on the coins of Constantine and his successors. Besides the frequent occurrence of the word Gloria on the coins, the image of this goddess is found on two coins, one of Constantius II and one of Constantine II.
We should therefore eliminate the word “glory” from our religious vocabulary for three reasons:
1) We have been commanded in Exod. 23:13 to “make no mention of the names of other mighty ones, nor let it be heard from your mouth”—especially in our worship, applying these names to the One we love, and His Son.
2) The concept of the word “glory” in religious symbolism, as we read in Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary, is that of the emanation or radiance of light, as of the sun. This is proof of the solarisation of our beloved Saviour, identifying Him, as well as His Father, with the Sun-deity.
3) The Hebrew words, as well as Greek word doxa, do not carry the meaning of sun-radiance or sunlight at all. Therefore the word “glory” is an incorrect rendering of those words.
What then should we use instead of the word “glory”? Simply what the Hebrew words and the Greek word mean: “esteem”, or “high esteem” or “repute”. These words carry the meaning of the Scriptural words and do not stem from the names of deities as far as we know, and should be used wherever our versions have “glory”.
frankthe glory,or esteem or any other as nothing to do in truth ,you miss to understand what i have said and what scriptures mean ,
this is why i have quoted some of the scriptures with my comment so that others would grasp the meaning I try to explain,but you have not cough it
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,07:43) frank Quote Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word! It is really quite simple! Father Yahweh says that He will not give HIS esteem (“glory”) to another. The esteem (“glory”) that Father Yahweh gave to Yahshua is the esteem that he is His only begotten [first born from the dead] son, not that he is “God”. (glory = esteem) =wrong the glory is the reputation of being truthful and so be true,and his truth ;only God his and has truth in him this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do
this is why truth his found to be in him and light ,and because that truth was given to his disciples they now have so recieved the glory shared with Christ ,and any one who is in that truth will and share that glory with his disciples ,
so the glory is given to Christ by his father then from Christ it is given his disciples (apostles)and from there to anyone who share truth this not our own but God's,
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Ex 16:7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?”
Ex 16:10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
Ex 24:16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
Ex 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
Ex 29:43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.
Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”Nu 14:21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,
Nu 14:22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—1Ch 16:10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1Ch 16:24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples1Ch 16:35 Cry out, “Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise.”Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.Lk 21:27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Jn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”
Jn 15:8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.Ro 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Pierre
Pierre,Can you not see the contradiction in the following that you have posted?
“… this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do”
END QUOTE
So Pierre, I take it that you believe that you can not possess, have or share the truth right? That is VERY sad!
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,08:25) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 13 2011,15:10) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,07:43) frank Quote Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word! It is really quite simple! Father Yahweh says that He will not give HIS esteem (“glory”) to another. The esteem (“glory”) that Father Yahweh gave to Yahshua is the esteem that he is His only begotten [first born from the dead] son, not that he is “God”. (glory = esteem) =wrong the glory is the reputation of being truthful and so be true,and his truth ;only God his and has truth in him this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do
this is why truth his found to be in him and light ,and because that truth was given to his disciples they now have so recieved the glory shared with Christ ,and any one who is in that truth will and share that glory with his disciples ,
so the glory is given to Christ by his father then from Christ it is given his disciples (apostles)and from there to anyone who share truth this not our own but God's,
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Ex 16:7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?”
Ex 16:10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
Ex 24:16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
Ex 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
Ex 29:43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.
Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”Nu 14:21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,
Nu 14:22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—1Ch 16:10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1Ch 16:24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples1Ch 16:35 Cry out, “Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise.”Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.Lk 21:27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Jn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”
Jn 15:8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.Ro 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Pierre
Pierre,So, you also like to baffle others with the “glory” word!
GLORY
No fewer than 25 Hebrew words are rendered by doxa in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Of these 25 words, 7 are more common, the most important being kabad. This Greek word doxa of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, and the doxa of the New Testament, are usually rendered “glory” in the English versions, a translation of the Latin gloria. If we first look at the Hebrew Old Testament, we find that kabad has usually been rendered “honour” when applied to man, but rendered “glory” when applied to our Heavenly Father. Why were they so keen to apply the word “glory” to our Mighty One? What is the meaning of the word “glory”? Funk & Wagnalls, New Standard Dictionary of the English Language, under “glory”, gives the religious symbolic meaning, “In religious symbolism, the complete representation of an emanation of light from the person of a sanctified being consisting of the aureole and the nimbus;” and further on, “The quality of being radiant or shining; brilliancy brightness; luster; as the glory of the sun;” and further on, “A sunburst; any ring of light; a halo.” John Ogilvie The Comprehensive English Dictionary, under “glory”, explains it as, “splendour, as of the sun.” Similar statements are made by The Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's New International Dictionary. The latter states, “glory is the general term for the aureola and the nimbus”—aureola being the halo or ring round the sun, and nimbus being the sun-disc.
This meaning, as well as the word itself, would be acceptable if the commonly used Hebrew words of the Old Testament, and the Greek word doxa, have had the same meaning of sun-radiance or circles of light. However, we do not find any trace of sun-radiance or emanation of light in any of these Hebrew words, nor in the Greek doxa. Once more we are rudely awakened to the fact of the adoption of Sun-worship into the Church, the fusion of Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. In the dictionaries, encyclopaedias and ecclesiastical books, we find many illustrations of our Saviour, the Virgin, and the saints, encircled with radiant circles or emanations of light around them.
What are the meanings then of the Scriptural Hebrew words? Kabad means honour, dignity or esteem in its figurative sense, as well as weight, in its literal sense. Pa'ar means repute. Halal means praiseworthiness or praise. Adar and hadar means to make great. Tipharah means repute. Shavak means to esteem.
The Greek word doxa simply means opinion, estimation, esteem, repute or dignity, coming from the verb dokeo, which means “to seem”.
Thus, the ecclesiastical symbolic meaning of the word “glory”, being that of radiance or emanation of light as from the sun, is totally un-Scriptural. It is strong evidence of the Church's solarisation of our Messiah and of His Father. The Church identified Elohim with the Sun deity, which was the prevailing deity of the Roman emperors, the Roman capital and its empire. However, not only does the concept of “glory” stem from Sun-worship, but we also find proof of “glory” (gloria) as having been a Roman goddess, discovered in the form of an icon personified by a woman, the upper part of her body almost naked, holding a circle on which are the zodiac signs. Pauly-Wissowa also defines Gloria as a personification of fame, the word being found very frequently on the coins of Constantine and his successors. Besides the frequent occurrence of the word Gloria on the coins, the image of this goddess is found on two coins, one of Constantius II and one of Constantine II.
We should therefore eliminate the word “glory” from our religious vocabulary for three reasons:
1) We have been commanded in Exod. 23:13 to “make no mention of the names of other mighty ones, nor let it be heard from your mouth”—especially in our worship, applying these names to the One we love, and His Son.
2) The concept of the word “glory” in religious symbolism, as we read in Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary, is that of the emanation or radiance of light, as of the sun. This is proof of the solarisation of our beloved Saviour, identifying Him, as well as His Father, with the Sun-deity.
3) The Hebrew words, as well as Greek word doxa, do not carry the meaning of sun-radiance or sunlight at all. Therefore the word “glory” is an incorrect rendering of those words.
What then should we use instead of the word “glory”? Simply what the Hebrew words and the Greek word mean: “esteem”, or “high esteem” or “repute”. These words carry the meaning of the Scriptural words and do not stem from the names of deities as far as we know, and should be used wherever our versions have “glory”.
frankthe glory,or esteem or any other as nothing to do in truth ,you miss to understand what i have said and what scriptures mean ,
this is why i have quoted some of the scriptures with my comment so that others would grasp the meaning I try to explain,but you have not cough it
Pierre
Pierre,The only reason that I “miss to understand” (It is “misunderstand” BTW!) what you have said is no fault of mine, but is in fact yours, since you have not the ability to communicate in English fluently so that I might understand.
BTW? Do you believe you heard me “cough”?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 13 2011,08:10) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,07:43) frank Quote Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word! It is really quite simple! Father Yahweh says that He will not give HIS esteem (“glory”) to another. The esteem (“glory”) that Father Yahweh gave to Yahshua is the esteem that he is His only begotten [first born from the dead] son, not that he is “God”. (glory = esteem) =wrong the glory is the reputation of being truthful and so be true,and his truth ;only God his and has truth in him this reputation or glory can not be shared because if you share it then that mean that someone else possecess the truth this can not be ,only one has truth,and it is the father ,
now the reason the son has truth and so glory that he recieved from the father this is because he does all the things his father tells him to do
this is why truth his found to be in him and light ,and because that truth was given to his disciples they now have so recieved the glory shared with Christ ,and any one who is in that truth will and share that glory with his disciples ,
so the glory is given to Christ by his father then from Christ it is given his disciples (apostles)and from there to anyone who share truth this not our own but God's,
Ex 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.
Ex 16:7 and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?”
Ex 16:10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
Ex 24:16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
Ex 24:17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
Ex 29:43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.
Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”Nu 14:21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth,
Nu 14:22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—1Ch 16:10 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1Ch 16:24 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples1Ch 16:35 Cry out, “Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise.”Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.Lk 21:27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Jn 11:40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”
Jn 15:8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.Ro 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Pierre
Pierre,So, you also like to baffle others with the “glory” word!
GLORY
No fewer than 25 Hebrew words are rendered by doxa in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Of these 25 words, 7 are more common, the most important being kabad. This Greek word doxa of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, and the doxa of the New Testament, are usually rendered “glory” in the English versions, a translation of the Latin gloria. If we first look at the Hebrew Old Testament, we find that kabad has usually been rendered “honour” when applied to man, but rendered “glory” when applied to our Heavenly Father. Why were they so keen to apply the word “glory” to our Mighty One? What is the meaning of the word “glory”? Funk & Wagnalls, New Standard Dictionary of the English Language, under “glory”, gives the religious symbolic meaning, “In religious symbolism, the complete representation of an emanation of light from the person of a sanctified being consisting of the aureole and the nimbus;” and further on, “The quality of being radiant or shining; brilliancy brightness; luster; as the glory of the sun;” and further on, “A sunburst; any ring of light; a halo.” John Ogilvie The Comprehensive English Dictionary, under “glory”, explains it as, “splendour, as of the sun.” Similar statements are made by The Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's New International Dictionary. The latter states, “glory is the general term for the aureola and the nimbus”—aureola being the halo or ring round the sun, and nimbus being the sun-disc.
This meaning, as well as the word itself, would be acceptable if the commonly used Hebrew words of the Old Testament, and the Greek word doxa, have had the same meaning of sun-radiance or circles of light. However, we do not find any trace of sun-radiance or emanation of light in any of these Hebrew words, nor in the Greek doxa. Once more we are rudely awakened to the fact of the adoption of Sun-worship into the Church, the fusion of Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. In the dictionaries, encyclopaedias and ecclesiastical books, we find many illustrations of our Saviour, the Virgin, and the saints, encircled with radiant circles or emanations of light around them.
What are the meanings then of the Scriptural Hebrew words? Kabad means honour, dignity or esteem in its figurative sense, as well as weight, in its literal sense. Pa'ar means repute. Halal means praiseworthiness or praise. Adar and hadar means to make great. Tipharah means repute. Shavak means to esteem. The Greek word doxa simply means opinion, estimation, esteem, repute or dignity, coming from the verb dokeo, which means “to seem”.
Thus, the ecclesiastical symbolic meaning of the word “glory”, being t
hat of radiance or emanation of light as from the sun, is totally un-Scriptural. It is strong evidence of the Church's solarisation of our Messiah and of His Father. The Church identified Elohim with the Sun deity, which was the prevailing deity of the Roman emperors, the Roman capital and its empire. However, not only does the concept of “glory” stem from Sun-worship, but we also find proof of “glory” (gloria) as having been a Roman goddess, discovered in the form of an icon personified by a woman, the upper part of her body almost naked, holding a circle on which are the zodiac signs. Pauly-Wissowa also defines Gloria as a personification of fame, the word being found very frequently on the coins of Constantine and his successors. Besides the frequent occurrence of the word Gloria on the coins, the image of this goddess is found on two coins, one of Constantius II and one of Constantine II.
We should therefore eliminate the word “glory” from our religious vocabulary for three reasons:
1) We have been commanded in Exod. 23:13 to “make no mention of the names of other mighty ones, nor let it be heard from your mouth”—especially in our worship, applying these names to the One we love, and His Son.
2) The concept of the word “glory” in religious symbolism, as we read in Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary, is that of the emanation or radiance of light, as of the sun. This is proof of the solarisation of our beloved Saviour, identifying Him, as well as His Father, with the Sun-deity.
3) The Hebrew words, as well as Greek word doxa, do not carry the meaning of sun-radiance or sunlight at all. Therefore the word “glory” is an incorrect rendering of those words.
What then should we use instead of the word “glory”? Simply what the Hebrew words and the Greek word mean: “esteem”, or “high esteem” or “repute”. These words carry the meaning of the Scriptural words and do not stem from the names of deities as far as we know, and should be used wherever our versions have “glory”.
Pierre,Here is the “glorified” “Jesus that you so foolishly worship:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 13 2011,07:39) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 13 2011,07:00) Not only does scripture teach that Jesus was with the Father before the world began, but so does the Book of Enoch.
In addition, the second century fathers also believed this.But the fact that the bible teaches this is enough.
To teach this has nothing to do with being hell bent.
Try heaven bent.
t8,As you know I do not believe that Scripture teaches “that Jesus was with the Father before the world began”. The Book of Enoch was not considered canonical. Anyone in the second century that believed that the Messiah pre-existed his birth I would definitely not consider to be related to me as a “father”. In fact, I would not even consider them to be related to me as a “brother” in like precious belief. YOUR so-called “Church Fathers” had to believe that the Messiah pre-existed his birth as an actual being or their “Triune God” would not have a leg to stand on!
If you knew your history, you would know that the Trinity came later on. The second century fathers believed in one God the Father and Jesus as the son of the Father, the messiah, lord, and the logos.They also believed that Jesus was the first-born of all creation and that he was at the right-hand of the Father in the glory that he had before the world began.
The point I make Frank is that you not only dismiss scripture, but even what the earliest believers (after the apostles) believed.
You also show ignorance regarding the Book of Enoch.
It is an older collection of books that some apostles quoted and these quotes are found in some of the bible books.
Multiple copies were also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.Your comment on it not being canonised shows your trust in man and his system of religion.
Do you honestly think that some religious Jews as well as Constantine and Athanasius, who chose the books with the latter also instrumental in the Trinity were being led by God? I mean, you disregard their Trinity, and then say that Enoch is not part of the canon based on the assumption of these Trinitarian architects?Seems to me that you pick and choose whatever side as long as it backs your own understanding.
I cannot see any of these witnesses (bible, Enoch other earlier writings, and second century writings) as backing your view.
But I am happy to stick with the bible as being the main witness. And it most certainly preaches another Jesus than the one you say was created 2000 or so years ago.
I believe he came in the flesh, not that he came into existence 2000 or so years ago.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 12 2011,12:36) Yahchanan 1:1 says “… and the word was Yahweh (“God”).
No, it doesn't Frank. But you would know that if you read my post – especially the green words.But as usual, you'll just keep posting the same thing without even addressing the things we keep showing you.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 12 2011,13:27) And the word [Father Yahweh's] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his [Yahshua's] esteem, the esteem as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of favor and truth
Ah, so you took English lessons at Ed's school in the sticks, huh?
Frank, the subject of the sentence is “The Word”. The words “his glory” refer back to the subject. This is simple language skills 101. Let's do an experiment, Frank:
Frank got a hair cut. We have seen his hair, and it looks okay.
Frank, isn't it common sense that “his hair” refers back to the subject “Frank”? If not, then you need to go back to school.
frank
Quote So Pierre, I take it that you believe that you can not possess, have or share the truth right? That is VERY sad! my friend you may understand English better than i do this is certain but as to scriptures you are blind it stops to the reading of your English language,in your spiritual knowledge,and sins spiritual understanding does not make sens to carnal believers,i do know you missed the real value in scriptures ,
What I was saying in my comment is ;GOD IS TRUTH ,HAS THE TRUTH ,NOTHING ELSE HAS TRUTH ,
BUT GOD GIVES TRUTH TO HIS SON ,AND HIS SON GIVE IT TO HIS DISCIPLES ,AND THE DISCIPLES HAVE WRITTEN FOR US TO TAKE PART OF THAT TRUTH and so possess it ;BUT EVEN NOW THIS IS STILL GODS TRUTH ,IF YOU LEAVE IT ALONE AS HE GIVE IT TO US,
BUT YOU CARNAL MINDED KNOW BETTER RIGHT ?D
Pierre:
frank
Quote Pierre, Here is the “glorified” “Jesus that you so foolishly worship:
you are so blind ,that you do not see ,what you doing in showing me that picture and say what you just said ,
it is sad
you haven learn anything in scriptures beside digging up internet documents and copy and paste ,sad
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,12:04) frank Quote So Pierre, I take it that you believe that you can not possess, have or share the truth right? That is VERY sad! my friend you may understand English better than i do this is certain but as to scriptures you are blind it stops to the reading of your English language,in your spiritual knowledge,and sins spiritual understanding does not make sens to carnal believers,i do know you missed the real value in scriptures ,
What I was saying in my comment is ;GOD IS TRUTH ,HAS THE TRUTH ,NOTHING ELSE HAS TRUTH ,
BUT GOD GIVES TRUTH TO HIS SON ,AND HIS SON GIVE IT TO HIS DISCIPLES ,AND THE DISCIPLES HAVE WRITTEN FOR US TO TAKE PART OF THAT TRUTH and so possess it ;BUT EVEN NOW THIS IS STILL GODS TRUTH ,IF YOU LEAVE IT ALONE AS HE GIVE IT TO US,
BUT YOU CARNAL MINDED KNOW BETTER RIGHT ?D
Pierre:
Pierre,Did not Yahshua proclaim “I am the way the truth and the life.”? First you say “GOD IS TRUTH ,HAS THE TRUTH ,NOTHING ELSE HAS TRUTH” then you contradict yourself and then say “BUT GOD GIVES TRUTH TO HIS SON ,AND HIS SON GIVE IT TO HIS DISCIPLES ,AND THE DISCIPLES HAVE WRITTEN FOR US TO TAKE PART OF THAT TRUTH and so possess it”
When our Heavenly Father and Creator gave His son truth, would he not then have the truth that He had given him. When Yahshua gave the truth to his disciples that his and our Father Yahweh had given to him, wouldn't they all then have the truth? They most certainly would! This makes your statement “NOTHING ELSE HAS TRUTH” an untruth, since they certainly had the truth that was given to them.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 12 2011,13:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,02:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 12 2011,08:58) You and your word are one and the same thing, as far as Glory goes concerning GOD GOD said he gives (HIS) GLORY to (NO) MAN, and I believe Jesus was a MAN>
Bingo!Gene, WHOSE glory do YOU have?
A. Gene has the glory of Gene.
B. Gene has the glory of someone begotten by Gene.Which one is accurate, Gene?
Gene,Now Mike is trying to baffle you with the “glory” word!
My point is not that hard to understand, Frank.1:14 says the Word became flesh AND had a glory as of the only begotten of the Father.
If the Father has the glory of “the Father”, and NOT of “an only begotten OF the Father”, then the Word cannot possibly be “the Father”. The Word must be the “only begotten OF the Father”, because that is the glory the Word had.
Frank, can God Almighty be WITH God Almighty? YES or NO?
Can Frank4YAHWEH be WITH Frank4YAHWEH? YES or NO?
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 13 2011,12:09) frank Quote , Here is the “glorified” “Jesus that you so foolishly worship:
you are so blind ,that you do not see ,what you doing in showing me that picture and say what you just said ,
it is sad
you haven learn anything in scriptures beside digging up internet documents and copy and paste ,sad
Pierre
Pierre,I guess you missed the point then! The illustration shows YOUR “Jesus glorified” as many other similar images of YOUR “deity” showing a halo suspended over its head. This image is related to the previous article that I posted entitled “GLORY”. The Messiah did not walk around “glorified” with a sun disc, halo or bright light suspended over his head.
Pierre,
Did you start worshipping Jesus without telling me? Or is Frank just posting more of his usual nonsense?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,12:51) Frank, can God Almighty be WITH God Almighty? YES or NO? Can Frank4YAHWEH be WITH Frank4YAHWEH? YES or NO?
Mike,Why are you asking me such foolish questions? I have never claimed “God Almighty [is] WITH God Almighty.”!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,12:54) Pierre, Did you start worshipping Jesus without telling me? Or is Frank just posting more of his usual nonsense?
Mike,I have no problem with those who “worship” the Messiah. In fact, I myself “worship” the Messiah, since he is most certainly worthy of “worship”, but I most certainly do not worship him as a “God” or as our Heavenly Father and Creator. I “worship” Yahshua as the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh and not as a “God” or as a second Yahweh.
Word Studies On Worship
(shachah, latreuo, and proskuneo)
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