Preexistence

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2011,11:12)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,10:25)

Hi T8,

1) Are you patience? Would you consider me prudence?
Do you not instead mean He had these things, the wording
you choose seems a bit selected and slanted towards your belief; Yes?

2) So the word that was translated as workman, means a skill
rather than a gender, once again supporting my view; yes?

3) God makes the distinction of his “HolySpirt” himself.

4) I don't remember any scripture worded in such manor?

Q1: Do you not instead mean He had these things, the wording you choose seems a bit selected and slanted towards your belief; Yes?

A: No he was saying that as a person he was these things because Jesus is not an attribute, furthermore, he was saying, “I am the truth”…
So my point stands. That wisdom can be an attribute and a person with that attribute. No slant here. This stands on its own as sound understanding.

Q2: So the word that was translated as workman, means a skill rather than a gender, once again supporting my view; yes?

A: Edj, a skill cannot have delight. Only a living person can express such things.
If you look as the wisdom scripture in Prov 8, it certainly starts of with wisdom as an attribute.
But those who believe weird things about Jesus usually say that the latter part is not different to the former, when it clearly is.
The latter part is certainly looking very much like a person rather than an attribute to me. I guess if you could point out 'she' in the latter part as you say you can in the former, then you might have something.

FYI however, the word craftsmen is translated correctly from the English words “one brought up” which is 'amown {aw-mone'} meaning artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman. That words origin is '0539', probably meaning in the sense of training. So the word craft is the skill and a craftsman is the one with the skill. The scripture refers to the latter, not the former.

Q3: God makes the distinction of his “HolySpirt” himself.
A: I don't understand your question.

Q4: I don't remember any scripture worded in such manor?
A: (A)OK, so Jesus is called the Word of God, and not the Holy Spirit.
(B)Yet the Holy Spirit is the Word of God.
(C)Well on the outset it is still possible of course, but you haven't shown me anything to convince me so far.

Hi T8,

1) The fact is that your point does not at all diminish the entity
from being the HolySpirit. If you think it does, please continue…

2) Thank you for admitting it has nothing to do with gender.
Once again the candidate of the HolySpirit is not diminished.
The FACT that wisdom is called a she and a her continuing
in the next chapter combined with the word “Spirit” being
the feminine IS STRONG evidence to support my claim!

3) That is a statement, rather than a question.

4. A) This is merely your opinion.
B) This is what the bible is teaching.
C) Then I will keep presenting more evidence.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 1:50 am#267054

Participant

1) The fact is that your point does not at all diminish the entity
from being the HolySpirit. If you think it does, please continue…

Edj, it doesn't diminish the entity from being Michael the Archangel either.

You missed the point.
It doesn't mention 'she' once wisdom is brought forth and after that fact, wisdom rejoices and is the craftsman at God's side is certainly conducive with Jesus being at the right-hand of God now, and in the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

My point stands. No one can say that this part is talking about an attribute.
Likewise, no one can say that Jesus who is the truth is not a person.

4)
A) This is merely your opinion.
B) This is what the bible is teaching.
C) Then I will keep presenting more evidence.

What I said stands. Jesus is called the son, messiah, second adam, and lots of other titles.
Nowhere is he called the Holy Spirit. If so, provide the scripture.

December 7, 2011 at 1:55 am#267055

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,18:02)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2011,10:52)

edj

Quote

Hi Mike,

Is this a serious question?
Neither Angels nor humans
are called “The Word” of God!
Only God's HolySpirt is called this.

God bless

only eddy believe this

Pierre

PIERRE,

Are you purposely lying? …because we all know Gene believes this way as well.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

why do you say i lie ?

do you know what a lie is ?

if you know then you should not says and believe that what scriptures does not teach,like The Word of God being the holy spirit ,and we all know trough the scriptures in Revelation that it is Christ ,

the holy spirit is many things ,but is is always at work for Gods purpose,

2Pe 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. in this scripture the holy spirit is a carrier,

Ac 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit here he has made Peter aware of the actions of Ananias,

Ac 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.here we see that a person can be recieving it

PS 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.here we see it is given by God to some

MT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.here the holy spirit is used by God to bring forth Jesus

MT 12:32 “ Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.here it shows that the holy spirit is deffenitly NOT Christ because of what Christ says

MK 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

AC 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”so again here we see that Christ could baptize people with the holy spirit ,

so the holy spirit his from God but is no way neither God or Christ ,

and we know it can do or is used to do many things ,

Pierre

December 7, 2011 at 2:41 am#267059

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2011,11:50)

1) The fact is that your point does not at all diminish the entity
from being the HolySpirit. If you think it does, please continue…

Edj, it doesn't diminish the entity from being Michael the Archangel either.

My point stands. No one can say that this part is talking about an attribute.
Likewise, no one can say that Jesus who is the truth is not a person.

4)
A) This is merely your opinion.
B) This is what the bible is teaching.
C) Then I will keep presenting more evidence.

What I said stands. Jesus is called the son, messiah, second adam, and lots of other titles.
(5)Nowhere is he called the Holy Spirit. If so, provide the scripture.

Hi T8,

1) OK, so we must look deeper then.

2) Is not wisdom brought forth in verse Prob.8:28?
Is not wisdom's discussion into the next Chapter?
In Prob.9:1-6 is wisdom still not called a she?

3) –

4) –

5) I said: the HolySpirit is called “The Word”.
The HolySpirit, I didn't say, was Jesus.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 2:45 am#267060

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2011,11:55)

edj

Pierre

PIERRE,

You mean as a surrogate father?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 3:00 am#267063

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,19:45)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2011,11:55)

edj

Pierre

PIERRE,

You mean as a surrogate father?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

NO,do you read what the scriptures are saying or just make you mind up on a idea and then look if you can sell it ??

the holy spirit is NOT a being it is a POWER like the POWER of TRUTH that GOD distribute as required to whom he choses,

truth comes from God and can be distributed trough angel,men,in dreams, in spirit ,it is part of his will,and will always participate with his will,

when you think Holy spirit always think :TRUTH ,WILL OF GOD,
you will be always right .

Pierre

December 7, 2011 at 5:49 am#267080

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,22:37)

PIERRE,

That is Proverbs you quoted, not Revelation.

SO ,Pierre says that it is Christ and so it is
Like I say, you believe your view is canon
rather than the Scriptures themselves.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ

I have showed you scriptures ,why did you not believe them ?

Pierre

December 7, 2011 at 3:17 pm#267090

GeneBalthrop

Participant

T8………..Give us your definition of What Spirit is. For a start would help> Spirit is (NOT) a PERSON no matter how much it is Personified as a Person, Spirit is any (INTELLECT) that can produce it effect in anything (IT) is IN. Wisdom is a is an attribute produced by a (TYPE) of Spirit (INTELLECT) and that “TYPE” is “CALLED” Wisdom> it is just that simple and (IT) can be in anyone God places it in> This applies to all “TYPE” of SPIRITS, clean unclean, wisdom, Adversarial (Satan), Holy (special) Spirit that give us the recognition of Truth called the spirit of truth. None of these are a literally He or She, they are (IT'S) or types of Spirits that produce these (INTELLECTS) (IN) a Person. Jesus has all these Spirit of GOD (IN) Him and Yahweh our GOD spoke directly through him to us via the “LOGOS”

T8………..a very Hugh problem here and in most all Christianity is not understanding what a SPIRIT real is, Most think it (IS) a REAL Person, or some think is not and some think it is bother and has many different meanings.And as a result you get all kinds of different doctrine ans teachings, But Spirit is not a PERSON at all It is what is (IN) a Person. God is not a PERSON , GOD is a SPIRIT and the LORD (YAHWEH) GOD has in His POWER and Before his Throne SEVEN DISTINCT “TYPES” Of SPIRITS , “WITH the POWER” to send them out from his [presents into His creation in all creation they exist as HOLY SPIRIT or SPECIAL SPIRITS, they are what the LORD YAHWEH used to create His creation and do Miricales with, They are seven distinct spirits producing seven (distinct “TYPES” of Intellects) But all spirit drive there POWER from What they are (IN) Jesus Has been granted to Have all seven of these (INTELLECTS) Spirits and not only that but the SEVEN POWERS to execute them . Spirit by (IT SELF) can do nothing it must exist in a POWER Base Like a Human Body which (IT) can animate. (IT) control us (IN) our Minds rather of GOD or the World , if the Spirit of GOD is working (IN) you (IT) will gender to LIFE and Produce WORDS Of GOD. If it is of the WORLD (IT) will produce the (INTELLECT) of the WORLD and lead to death.

T8……….Spirits, (ALL) SPIRITS, are just simply (TYPES) of INTELLECTS that can go (IN) and (OUT) of us and they INFLUENCE our thinking and as a result our WILLS or desires. When you personify Spiirt then people begin to think they (ARE) individual “BEINGS” but they are not they are ATTRIBUTES produced by (TYPES) of SPIRITS.

God can take out of us the Stony Hearts by removing that (type of SPIRITS) and give us NEW Hearts of Flesh (soft Heart) by replacing those “spirits” with a different Type or Kind or SPIRIT which will cause us to think differently. That is why it say we are “CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS”. The Lord (YAHWEH) our GOD is able to save and change ALL including all his CREATION and then it (the CREATION) will be delivered from it BONDS of Corruption. IMO

peace and love to you and your……………………………………………………………gene

December 7, 2011 at 8:32 pm#267091

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2011,01:17)

T8………..Give us your definition of What Spirit is.

Spirit is the essence of spiritual. It is stuff of life.
The closest equivalent in the physical realm is water.

The river of life proceeds out of the throne of God.
I suspect it is spirit coming from God himself to give life to his creation. On Earth we have rivers that feed physical life.

That is why Jesus said that he had access to living water that would make you never thirst again. Jesus also said the following in John 7:38:
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

December 7, 2011 at 8:48 pm#267092

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,12:41)

Hi T8,

1) OK, so we must look deeper then.

2) Is not wisdom brought forth in verse Prob.8:28?
Is not wisdom's discussion into the next Chapter?
In Prob.9:1-6 is wisdom still not called a she?

3) –

4) –

5) I said: the HolySpirit is called “The Word”.
The HolySpirit, I didn't say, was Jesus.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Yes chapter 9 I believe is speaking of wisdom as an attribute.
This is not a difficulty as scripture often talks about something, then gives a prophecy or revelation about that and then continues on track.

And you say the Holy Spirit is the Word, but it is not directly written. However, it may be inferred, but I cannot see the inference.

So are you saying that Jesus is neither the Holy Spirit or the Word? Rather these are the same and are some kind of attribute/thing?

December 7, 2011 at 10:13 pm#267094

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,17:39)

1) “The Word's” glory is exemplified in his only begotten son.

Okay Ed,

Let's follow this thought through. YOU think that the Word is the Holy Spirit, which is God Himself, right?

Why would the Word/Holy Spirit/God Himself have the glory of an only begotten OF God?

Because the Word is what became flesh; and the Word is what had the glory of God's only begotten.

You try to do what Gene does with 1:14. You PRETEND that it says, “The Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS FLESH“. And if 1:14 actually said that, you might have a point. But 1:14 doesn't say that, Ed. Instead, it tells us that the Word himself BECAME flesh – not CAME TO BE IN flesh.

peace,
mike

December 7, 2011 at 11:00 pm#267097

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,17:39)

3) Indirectly in verse 4, and specifically in verse 14.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us AND we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Show me where Christ is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in verse 14.

Also Ed, consider that this is one continuous sentence, strung together with the conjunction “AND”. So what you are claiming is that John started a sentence about the Word, and without even ending his sentence, he started using pronouns to refer to a subject he hadn't even identified. That's quite a stretch of the imagination, IMO.

peace,
mike

December 8, 2011 at 6:31 am#267123

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2011,15:49)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,22:37)

PIERRE,

That is Proverbs you quoted, not Revelation.

SO ,Pierre says that it is Christ and so it is
Like I say, you believe your view is canon
rather than the Scriptures themselves.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ

I have showed you scriptures ,why did you not believe them ?

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I believe all of Scripture! …what I don't believe is the 'spin' that you put to it.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 8, 2011 at 6:55 am#267124

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 08 2011,06:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,12:41)

Hi T8,

1) OK, so we must look deeper then.

2) Is not wisdom brought forth in verse Prob.8:28?
Is not wisdom's discussion into the next Chapter?
In Prob.9:1-6 is wisdom still not called a she?

3) –

4) –

5) I said: the HolySpirit is called “The Word”.
The HolySpirit, I didn't say, was Jesus.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

(A)Yes chapter 9 I believe is speaking of wisdom as an attribute.
This is not a difficulty as scripture often talks about something, then gives a prophecy or revelation about that and then continues on track.

(B)And you say the Holy Spirit is the Word, but it is not directly written. However, it may be inferred, but I cannot see the inference.

(C)So are you saying that Jesus is neither the Holy Spirit or the Word? (D)Rather these are the same and are some kind of attribute/thing?

Hi T8,

A) I always appropriate when others given a reason why their view is such.

B) Here is one such occasion…
“The [Holy]Spirit, which is The Word of God.“ (Eph.6:17)
I realize the word “Holy” is not there, is this the type of inference that you mean?

C) Correct

D) They are parts of God; like your voice, and your spirit are parts of you.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 8, 2011 at 7:05 am#267125

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2011,08:13)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,17:39)

1) “The Word's” glory is exemplified in his only begotten son.

Okay Ed,

Let's follow this thought through. YOU think that the Word is the Holy Spirit, which is God Himself, right?

Why would the Word/Holy Spirit/God Himself have the glory of an only begotten OF God?

Because the Word is what became flesh; and the Word is what had the glory of God's only begotten.

peace,
mike

Quote

Let's follow this thought through. YOU think that the Word is the Holy Spirit,

Quote

which is God Himself, right?

Hi Mike,

Let's focus on one part of this at a time; OK?

Quote

(adjusted) Why would the Word/Holy Spirit have the glory as of an only begotten OF God?

Because God's glory then can be seen in the physical world; compare…

the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 8, 2011 at 7:23 am#267126

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2011,09:00)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,17:39)

3) Indirectly in verse 4, and specifically in verse 14.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us AND we beheld his glory, the (Words) glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Show me where Christ is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in verse 14.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the (word's) glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.

And as of: means that Christ's brethren had not been
birthed by “The Word” yet; I hope this clarifies it for you.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 8, 2011 at 7:24 am#267127

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2011,09:00)

Ed, consider that this is one continuous sentence, strung together with the conjunction “AND”. So what you are claiming is that John started a sentence about the Word, and without even ending his sentence, he started using pronouns to refer to a subject he hadn't even identified. That's quite a stretch of the imagination, IMO.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

Were you not aware that others put in comas and sentence breaks,
they were not in the original texts; I hope this helps.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the (word's) glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.

The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

as of: means that Christ's brethren had not been
birthed by “The Word” yet; I hope this clarifies it for you.

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 8, 2011 at 9:13 am#267137

Participant

edj

Quote

I believe all of Scripture! …what I don't believe is the 'spin' that you put to it.

Show me with scriptures plainly that what I have said was not scriptural or not true ;

and then and only then what you say could become true ,other wise I say you do not like the truth of God in his written word,and so have a personal problem not with me but with God himself

what I recommend you to solve before it is to late

Pierre

December 8, 2011 at 9:59 am#267155

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 08 2011,19:13)

edj

Quote

I believe all of Scripture! …what I don't believe is the 'spin' that you put to it.

Show me with scriptures plainly that what I have said was not scriptural or not true ;

and then and only then what you say could become true ,other wise I say you do not like the truth of God in his written word,and so have a personal problem not with me but with God himself

what I recommend you to solve before it is to late

Pierre

HA Ha ha ha

As I said: you believe you view is canon,
above trusting in the Scriptures themselves.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 8, 2011 at 9:59 am#267156