Preexistence

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2011,06:31)

Quote

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,05:59)

Hi Pierre,

Proverbs calls wisdom a she,
and the word “Spirit” is feminine.
Yet these facts mean nothing to you,
the traditions of men instead supersede.(Col.2:22)

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

God bless
Ed J

PIERRE,

I was right, the FACTS mean nothing to you,
instead you will cling to what the systems of religion
have taught you, right? Do you deny it is there message?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Yes that is true Edj.

But then it changes tact once wisdom is given birth and even calls Wisdom the craftsMan at his side.
And who was it that is at the right hand of the majesty on high by returning to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began?
Is it not Jesus.

Read it for yourself and see that wisdom that is spoken of as an attribute (in the feminine) once given birth is now no longer an attribute but is the craftsman at the right-hand of God.

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

Do these facts mean anything to you Edj?

Hi T8, sorry, the word 'birth' is not there either?

Prob.8:22-28 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Set up and brought forth. …as in, the HolySpirit is raised up to be brought to the front of the class.

(Gen.1:2) “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Compare: “he set a compass upon the face of the depth”

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 6, 2011 at 10:18 pm#267017

Participant

Hi Edj.

Correct it is brought forth. So as you said sorry, I am going to have to say 'sorry sorry' because brought forth is used in other verses when talking not just of things, but also to bring forth a child.

The following verses use the same word (chuwl {khool} or chiyl {kheel}):

Proverbs 26:10: The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
Isaiah 45:10: Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Isaiah 51:2: Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
Isaiah 54:1: Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

So we are left with God bringing forth something that is called the “craftsman at his side” and call it a coincidence, but Jesus had glory with God before the world began is now at the right side of the majesty on high, and even more compelling is we are told that God created all things through and for his son. No interpretation of Jesus being the Word needed. It just says that God created all things through his son and he is before all things.

Does this mean anything to you Edj?

December 6, 2011 at 10:22 pm#267019

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 05 2011,17:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,10:31)

Of course the word of God was sometimes delivered via His Holy Spirit. According to Jesus, Ps 110 is one of those times.

Hi Mike,

Thank you, then we are in agreement on this point.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

If we are in agreement that the word of God came VIA His Holy Spirit, then we must also be in agreement that the Holy Spirit is not actually “the word of God”, but one of the many vessels through which the word of God came to men.

Are we in agreement on this, Ed?

December 6, 2011 at 10:54 pm#267021

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,04:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,08:01)

Ed, here is 1:14-15 again, but instead of using pronouns, I will use the name of the subject to which they actually refer:

14 The Word became flesh and made ~~his~~ THE WORD'S dwelling among us. We have seen ~~his~~ THE WORD'S glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testifies concerning ~~him~~ THE WORD. He cries out, saying, “~~This~~ THE WORD was he THE WORD of whom I said, ‘He THE WORD who comes after me has surpassed me because he THE WORD was before me.’”

Ed, this is just the way it is. And you KNOW it, based on your replies to my sample exercise about Keith. Why you would now ignore what you clearly know, and attempt to make the scriptures form around YOUR understanding, instead of forming your understanding around the scriptures, is beyond me.

Hi Mike,

No, that's the way that you make it out to be.
Because that's the only way you will let yourself see it.

You have yet to poke any holes in my view;
but you are welcome to keep trying.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

The fact that you know John is speaking about “the Word”, but insist that all of a sudden, John switches to a different subject starting with the pronoun “him”, (as if we would have any idea who “him” is), leaves a HUGE, GAPING WHOLE in your view.

Do you remember how I began my sample exercise? Do you remember how I left off the first sentence and asked out of the blue, “DO YOU LIKE HIM?” ? You had to ask me who I was talking about, remember? And what did you learn from that, Ed? Didn't you learn that one cannot just start speaking of a new subject using the pronoun “him” without first identifying who the “him” is?

Ed, my exercise was well thought out, and you fell right into the trap. And now your words are in the Incarnation thread for all to see. So your insistence that John just up and switched subjects using the pronoun “him”, without telling us who the “him” was, is see-through. Ed, I can see clear as day that you know who both 1:14 AND 1:15 speak of. And I can also see clear as day that you are willing to let us all think you are ignorant concerning grammar rules – just so you can PRETEND to be “right” and keep your flawed doctrine.

Ed did this……………..Ed did that…………..Ed said this…………..Mike testified about HIM………….

Only Ed would think Mike testified about someone other than “Ed”.

And truthfully, Ed wouldn't even think that. He has shown that he understands John 1:14-15 full well. He showed this by being able to recognize that the pronouns “his” and “him” referred to Worshipping Jesus in my sample exercise. And that shows that his understanding of the grammatical rules of pronouns is sufficient to understand 1:14-15. So, what good will it do me to talk to him further at this point? Because it is clear to me that he is PRETENDING not to see what we all know he sees.

Ed, all six of the bolded pronouns above refer to YOU – in case you were unable to figure that out on your own.

December 6, 2011 at 11:15 pm#267025

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:18)

Hi Edj.

The following verses use the same word (chuwl {khool} or chiyl {kheel}):

Does this mean anything to you Edj?

Hi T8,

Are we not born again with God's Spirit?
The meaning of birth does not discount God's Spirit.
Because it's with his Spirit the we do become born of spirit.

What is the definition of the word that your translators translated to 'craftsman'? <–Let's explore this; OK?

Plus you've not addressed how Prob.9:1-6 apparently contradicts your belief here. <–please do comment?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 6, 2011 at 11:18 pm#267026

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,03:50)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 06 2011,20:11)

edj

Quote

Hi Pierre,

Proverbs calls wisdom a she,
and the word “Spirit” is feminine.
Yet these facts mean nothing to you,
the traditions of men instead supersede. (Col.2:22)

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

you still do not see it but then my friend what can i say;Jn 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,;

Ex 31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses,
Ex 31:2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah,
Ex 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts

1KI 3:9 “So give Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people to discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?”

JOB 12:13
“With Him are wisdom and might;
To Him belong counsel and understanding.

PS 32:9 Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding,
Whose trappings include bit and bridle to hold them in check,
Otherwise they will not come near to you.

PS 119:125 I am Your servant; give me understanding,
That I may know Your testimonies.
PS 119:130 The unfolding of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple.
PS 119:144 Your testimonies are righteous forever;
Give me understanding that I may live.

PS 119:169
Let my cry come before You, O LORD;
Give me understanding according to YOUR WORD

Pierre

PIERRE,

What do you have say ABOUT THE FACTS that I just gave you? …do you consider them a distraction as well?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

it seems you did not read Gods word and so did not learn anything because you only can see feminine or masculine ,

words ,words you missing the message ,you are killing the messanger as well,

and yes they are a distraction of the real message,

all the scriptures i have quoted are from the LXX OT,

only the NT are from NIV 1984

if I forgot to mention Revelation 19 ,it was purposetly done to make you focus on the other scriptures ,

but it was of no avail,

Pierre

December 6, 2011 at 11:20 pm#267027

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 05 2011,17:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,10:31)

Of course the word of God was sometimes delivered via His Holy Spirit. According to Jesus, Ps 110 is one of those times.

Hi Mike,

Thank you, then we are in agreement on this point.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Are we in agreement on this, Ed?

Hi Mike,

The bible says that “The Word” of the LORD came to them (meaning the Prophets),
if we agree God's HolySpirit came to them, then God's HolySpirit is “The Word” of God; right?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 6, 2011 at 11:36 pm#267032

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,09:15)

Plus you've not addressed how Prob.9:1-6 apparently contradicts your belief here.

Edj.

I believe that wisdom is an attribute thus it can be spoken as a she. If I have wisdom, I do not believe that I am Jesus for example.

The difference is that the name of an attribute can also be given to a person with that attribute. e.g., when Jesus said “I am the truth”, he wasn't saying he was an attribute.
When he said, I am the life, he wasn't saying he was an attribute.
No he was saying that as a person he was these things.

Thus wisdom spoken as an attribute in Proverbs changes tact as I mentioned earlier to say, “craftsman at his side” for example. The point being that a craftsman is no longer a she or attribute.

Actually craftsman seems to be present in one translation, (possibly more but haven't checked), so I am happy to go with:
“Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]” or
“Then I was constantly[a] at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.

Such language is not denoting an attribute but as someone or something beside God.
When we see the word rejoicing and delight, it gives an emotion or response that a person, not an attribute gives.
It not only denotes existence with God, but distinction from him too.

The second century Fathers often said that Jesus was the first work of the Father which was their way of saying that he was Wisdom.
The strength of this view was reinforced with Jesus being called both wisdom and the logos in the New Testament. And we also have direct reference that it was the son by whom God made all things through.

When you take the whole counsel of scripture, it is hard to deny that he was the first born of all creation, the first work of the Father, and the one by whom all things were made through.

Admittedly, some of this involves looking at the whole of scripture to give it context, but other scriptures can stand on their own, such as “All things were made through him and for him”.

December 6, 2011 at 11:59 pm#267035

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,16:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 05 2011,17:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,10:31)

Of course the word of God was sometimes delivered via His Holy Spirit. According to Jesus, Ps 110 is one of those times.

Hi Mike,

Thank you, then we are in agreement on this point.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Are we in agreement on this, Ed?

Hi Mike,

The bible says that “The Word” of the LORD came to them (meaning the Prophets),
if we agree God's HolySpirit came to them, then God's HolySpirit is “The Word” of God; right?

God bless
Ed J

Angels also came to them delivering the word of God. Are angels also “the Word of God”?

December 7, 2011 at 12:02 am#267036

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,04:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,08:01)

Ed, here is 1:14-15 again, but instead of using pronouns, I will use the name of the subject to which they actually refer:

14 The Word became flesh and made ~~his~~ THE WORD'S dwelling among us. We have seen ~~his~~ THE WORD'S glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hi Mike,

No, that's the way that you make it out to be.
Because that's the only way you will let yourself see it.

You have yet to poke any holes in my view;
but you are welcome to keep trying.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Ed did this……………..Ed did that…………..Ed said this…………..Mike testified about HIM………….

Only Ed would think Mike testified about someone other than “Ed”.

Ed, all six of the bolded pronouns above refer to YOU – in case you were unable to figure that out on your own.

Hi Mike,

The new subject is identified: “the only begotten of the Father.”
Here is an example for you how the subject can change from
one verse to the next; which you present as your argument.

Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

This is more evidence to support my view; what say you?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 12:06 am#267037

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,09:20)

Hi Mike,

The bible says that “The Word” of the LORD came to them (meaning the Prophets),
if we agree God's HolySpirit came to them, then God's HolySpirit is “The Word” of God; right?

Why can't God's Spirit deliver the Word or the message to the Prophets. There is probably a reason why the Spirit and Word are different words.

And we know that Jesus is called the Word of God in Revelation, but where is he directly called the Holy Spirit?

December 7, 2011 at 12:11 am#267038

Participant

I think that there is confusion here based on not distinguishing between attributes and persons.
Attributes even objects are often called 'she”, while a person 'he'.

Also a person reacts to things, while an attribute cannot.
A person can feel delight. An attribute cannot.

December 7, 2011 at 12:22 am#267040

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,16:15)

What is the definition of the word that your translators translated to 'craftsman'? <–Let's explore this; OK?

Okay.

From NETNotes:
Critical to the interpretation of this line is the meaning of אָמוֹן (’amon). Several suggestions have been made: “master craftsman” (cf. ASV, NASB, NIV, NRSV), “nursing child” (cf. NCV), “foster father.”

The image of a child is consistent with the previous figure of being “given birth to” (vv. 24, 25). However, “craftsman” has the most support (LXX, Vulgate, Syriac, Tg. Prov 8:30, Song 7:1; Jer 52:15……..)

Ed, the LXX has craftsman. Same with the Latin Vulgate and the Syriac text. Not to mention that the New KJV has updated their translation to “craftsman”.

As for the two supporting scriptures listed by NETNotes, the KJV renders the word “amon” as “cunning workman” in Song 7:1. They do not use “craftsman” in Jer 52:15, but the New KJV does.

I guess my opinion will follow the LXX, which was most likely translated by Greek speaking Jews, who knew both languages very well. And the LXX has “craftsman”, along with virtually every translation except for the KJV.

December 7, 2011 at 12:25 am#267042

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2011,09:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2011,09:15)

Plus you've not addressed how Prob.9:1-6 apparently contradicts your belief here.

Edj.

I believe that wisdom is an attribute thus it can be spoken as a she. If I have wisdom, I do not believe that I am Jesus for example.

The difference is that the name of an attribute can also be given to a person with that attribute. e.g., when Jesus said “I am the truth”, he wasn't saying he was an attribute.
When he said, I am the life, he wasn't saying he was an attribute.
(1)No he was saying that as a person he was these things.

Thus wisdom spoken as an attribute in Proverbs changes tact as I mentioned earlier to say, “craftsman at his side” for example. The point being that a craftsman is no longer a she or attribute.

(2)Such language is not denoting an attribute but as someone or something beside God.
(3)When we see the word rejoicing and delight, it gives an emotion or response that a person, not an attribute gives.
It not only denotes existence with God, but distinction from him too.

When you take the whole counsel of scripture, it is hard to deny that he was the first born of all creation, the first work of the Father, and the one by whom all things were made through.

Admittedly, some of this involves looking at the whole of scripture to give it context, but other scriptures can stand on their own, such as (4)”All things were made through him and for him”.

Hi T8,

1) Are you patience? Would you consider me prudence?
Do you not instead mean He had these things, the wording
you choose seems a bit selected and slanted towards your belief; Yes?

2) So the word that was translated as workman, means a skill
rather than a gender, once again supporting my view; yes?

3) God makes the distinction of his “HolySpirt” himself.

4) I don't remember any scripture worded in such manor?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 12:27 am#267043

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,17:02)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,04:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,08:01)

Ed, here is 1:14-15 again, but instead of using pronouns, I will use the name of the subject to which they actually refer:

14 The Word became flesh and made ~~his~~ THE WORD'S dwelling among us. We have seen ~~his~~ THE WORD'S glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hi Mike,

No, that's the way that you make it out to be.
Because that's the only way you will let yourself see it.

You have yet to poke any holes in my view;
but you are welcome to keep trying.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Ed did this……………..Ed did that…………..Ed said this…………..Mike testified about HIM………….

Only Ed would think Mike testified about someone other than “Ed”.

Ed, all six of the bolded pronouns above refer to YOU – in case you were unable to figure that out on your own.

Hi Mike,

The new subject is identified: “the only begotten of the Father.”
Here is an example for you how the subject can change from
one verse to the next; which you present as your argument.

This is more evidence to support my view; what say you?

God bless
Ed J

Ed, “the only begotten of the Father” refers to a glory that the subject had. And the subject that had that glory was “the Word”.

As for your example, pay attention to the words “Christ died for us”. Now the “his blood” could refer to either “God” or “Christ”, because “Christ” has been introduced into the thought.

Where was “Christ” introduced into 1:14-15, Ed?

December 7, 2011 at 12:29 am#267044

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,09:59)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,16:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 05 2011,17:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,10:31)

Of course the word of God was sometimes delivered via His Holy Spirit. According to Jesus, Ps 110 is one of those times.

Hi Mike,

Thank you, then we are in agreement on this point.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Are we in agreement on this, Ed?

Hi Mike,

The bible says that “The Word” of the LORD came to them (meaning the Prophets),
if we agree God's HolySpirit came to them, then God's HolySpirit is “The Word” of God; right?

God bless
Ed J

Angels also came to them delivering the word of God. Are angels also “the Word of God”?

Hi Mike,

Is this a serious question?
Neither Angels nor humans
are called “The Word” of God!
Only God's HolySpirt is called this.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 12:39 am#267045

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,10:27)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,17:02)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2011,08:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,04:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,08:01)

Ed, here is 1:14-15 again, but instead of using pronouns, I will use the name of the subject to which they actually refer:

14 The Word became flesh and made ~~his~~ THE WORD'S dwelling among us. We have seen ~~his~~ THE WORD'S glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hi Mike,

No, that's the way that you make it out to be.
Because that's the only way you will let yourself see it.

You have yet to poke any holes in my view;
but you are welcome to keep trying.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Ed did this……………..Ed did that…………..Ed said this…………..Mike testified about HIM………….

Only Ed would think Mike testified about someone other than “Ed”.

Ed, all six of the bolded pronouns above refer to YOU – in case you were unable to figure that out on your own.

Hi Mike,

The new subject is identified: “the only begotten of the Father.”
Here is an example for you how the subject can change from
one verse to the next; which you present as your argument.

This is more evidence to support my view; what say you?

God bless
Ed J

Ed, (1)”the only begotten of the Father” refers to a glory that the subject had. And the subject that had that glory was “the Word”.

(2)As for your example, pay attention to the words “Christ died for us”. Now the “his blood” could refer to either “God” or “Christ”, because “Christ” has been introduced into the thought.

(3)Where was “Christ” introduced into (John) 1:14-15, Ed?

Hi Mike, I added (John) to your quote for purposes of clarification.

1) “The Word's” glory is exemplified in his only begotten son.

2) It's definitely referring to the blood in Christ; correct?

3) Indirectly in verse 4, and specifically in verse 14.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 12:52 am#267047

terraricca

Participant

edj

Quote

Hi Mike,

Is this a serious question?
Neither Angels nor humans
are called “The Word” of God!
Only God's HolySpirt is called this.

God bless

only eddy believe this

Pierre

December 7, 2011 at 1:02 am#267050

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2011,10:52)

edj

Quote

Hi Mike,

Is this a serious question?
Neither Angels nor humans
are called “The Word” of God!
Only God's HolySpirt is called this.

God bless

only eddy believe this

Pierre

PIERRE,

Are you purposely lying? …because we all know Gene believes this way as well.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 7, 2011 at 1:16 am#267052