Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

t8,

The pronouns associated with “the Word” in John 1 ARE distinguished as singular masculine.  Do you understand this?  I mentioned it before, but you didn't reply.

In other words, there is NO CHANCE that the Word is called “it”, because the pronoun “autos” is in the singular masculine form, making the Word be a “he”, and not a “she”, “it”, or “them”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 04 2011,13:17)

MIke…………..God is not a HE…………… Yahweh is the HE………….

Forgive my confusion, Gene, but isn't Yahweh God?

[terraricca]

gene

Quote

Yahweh is the HE Who is composed of all seven of those (IT'S)and the POWER that GOES with Them. Making Him the one and “Only “TRUE” GOD”.

I did not know this ,could you supply the scriptures to back it up

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2011,01:41)

Okay guys……………once again from the top!   1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So far, the only subject mentioned is “the Word”. 2 He was with God in the beginning. We know that the pronoun “He” must refer back to “the Word”, because “the Word” is the only subject thus far mentioned, right? 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. The pronouns “him” must be still speaking of “the Word”, because he is still the only subject thus far mentioned. I assume that both Gene and Ed are in agreement with me up until this point – that all the pronouns refer back to the subject “the Word”. Now compare: 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Again, “the Word” is the subject, and therefore the pronoun “his” must be referring back to that subject.  Remember, this is the same “Word” that was with God in the beginning.  It is the same “Word” through whom all things were made.  It is the same “Word” without whom nothing at all was made.   Are we still in agreement? We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. The pronoun “his” in this line must still be speaking of “the Word”, because no other subject has been introduced since “The Word became flesh…….”.  So it is “the Word” who had the glory God's only begotten.  It is “the Word” who dwelled among us on earth. 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’” Now we have the introduction of a different subject.  “John” is the new subject, and so we have to decide if the pronoun “him” refers back to “John” – as if he testified concerning himself; or if it refers back to the former subject – “the Word”.  Fortunately for us, it is a no-brainer because of the following words, “This was he of whom I said”.  Those words make it clear that the pronoun “him” doesn't refer back to the new subject, “John”, but to the previous subject, “the Word”. Ergo, the underlined words were said about “the Word”. There really is no two ways about it, guys.  You can either accept this teaching or deny it.  But you can't possibly refute it, because it is irrefutable. peace, mike

Hi Mike,

John 1:1 illustrates (communication) an aspect of God. (Note how God is mentioned here)

In verse 4 this aspect produces light in mankind. (like a light-bulb symbolizes an idea)

The focus than switches to this light as glory entering the physical world in Jesus.

In verse 15 the subject switches to Jesus, the embodiment of light in mankind.

It's really pretty simple, I don't know why you're so baffled over John 1:1-15?

The communication of God then can enlighten all who are willing to listen. (as in ears to hear)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2011,12:29)

gene Quote Yahweh is the HE Who is composed of all seven of those (IT'S)and the POWER that GOES with Them.  Making Him the one and “Only “TRUE” GOD”. I did not know this ,could you supply the scriptures to back it up Pierre

Hi Pierre,

Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and
in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns
and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 05 2011,23:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2011,12:29) gene Quote Yahweh is the HE Who is composed of all seven of those (IT'S)and the POWER that GOES with Them.  Making Him the one and “Only “TRUE” GOD”. I did not know this ,could you supply the scriptures to back it up Pierre Hi Pierre, Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ

It does not say that God has 7 spirits ,it say that the Lamb has seven spirits who are from God ,

This is only saying that Christ is the one that will bring all to a complete fulfillment according to Gods will,

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2011,11:56)

t8, The pronouns associated with “the Word” in John 1 ARE distinguished as singular masculine.  Do you understand this?  I mentioned it before, but you didn't reply. In other words, there is NO CHANCE that the Word is called “it”, because the pronoun “autos” is in the singular masculine form, making the Word be a “he”, and not a “she”, “it”, or “them”.

At this stage I do not know enough about that to comment. My level of understanding here is that autos can be HE, SHE, IT, and I have not looked into other ways on how we know the difference except for context.

But thanks for pointing this out. Have you got a link or reference I could check out?

[Proclaimer]

To the Greeks, the term Logos was used to describe the agency by which God created physical things. In short the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the physical realm.

Is it then a coincidence that Jesus (Not Logos in this case) is identified as the mediator between man and God in 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Before he emptied himself and came in the flesh, he was the Word that was with God and existing in the form of God. Was he too the mediator between God and the material universe?

We know that Jesus mediates for us today. He is the one at the right hand of God. He is the one whom we must come through to know God.

To those that deny Jesus is the Word of God, are we to assume that no one could know God pre-2000 or so years ago to 14 billion years or however old the universe is. And if beings knew God pre-2000 years ago, in what name or path did they know the invisible God? God is a Spirit and he is invisible. He is also eternal. Explain to me how beings could see an eternal invisible spirit? Who was the chief spokesperson for this invisible eternal spirit?

At least we know that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the first born of all creation. Knowing this, such questions are answered for us because we know he is the full expression and image of God.

The other unanswered question for those that that believe Jesus is a 2000 year old man (only), is who was the first born of all creation. Who was the first? Michael? Gabriel? Who?

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……> Man is also made in the IMAGE of GOD, your above, post starts off right and then drifts into speculations, Jesus did indeed bring us the Word of GOD > HOW? Because (IT) the LOGOS which was GOD was (IN) Him. remember “the Father (IN ME) (He) does the works”< and in this way the Logs became Flesh (IN) Jesus. When are you going to see that brother , but becasue this Logos was in Him, and by the way, can be (IN) us also, does Not make Him a Preexistent Being no more then (IT) in Us makes Us that LOGOS either. God considers us temples He can Dwell (IN) Just as He did Jesus , He truly was (IN) Jesus. That is how the LOGOS became Flesh, Paladin explained it right.

Nothing preexisted Jesus' berth except the SPIRIT of the Living GOD and (IT) was (IN) Jesus, Who came into this world by His Berth as a living Human Being the Second ADAM , Not a MORPHED Angel or GOD or anything else, Just a Human Being who had the fullness of GOD (IN) him and that GOD Spoke “THROUGH” His Mouth just as he did the Prophets of OLD Via His SPIRIT which is the LOGOS> of GOD.

God was not dealing with anyone other then Mankind via the 100% only Man Jesus, who is still a SON of MAN by the way if you believe Jesus and what he said. IMO

peace and love…………………………………………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2011,17:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 05 2011,23:58) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2011,12:29) gene Quote Yahweh is the HE Who is composed of all seven of those (IT'S)and the POWER that GOES with Them.  Making Him the one and “Only “TRUE” GOD”. I did not know this ,could you supply the scriptures to back it up Pierre Hi Pierre, Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org EDJ It does not say that God has 7 spirits ,it say that the Lamb has seven spirits who are from God , This is only saying that Christ is the one that will bring all to a complete fulfillment according to Gods will, Pierre

Pierre………..God is SPIRIT, LIFE is SPIRIT, SPIRIT Gives LIFE to all creation of GOD, Our Words express those Spirits, of LIFE (IN) Us. Spirits are simply put INTELLECTS that make up our cognitive thoughts and when we speak we are uttering those thoughts, out loud. Our word are expressions of those thoughts , Jesus Had those Spirits (IN) Him and He uttered those cognitive thoughts they supplied to him, we also can have those spirits (IN) us and also utter and express those cognitive thoughts also, Just as he did.

Scripture clearly shows the “ARE” seven Spirit of GOD, it clearly say these (ARE) the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD that GO “to and fro through out the earth, These Seven is what the LORD YAHWEH  our GOD used to create his whole creation. They Go and Fro thought out all the earth. They GO TO and FRO becasue they are (IN) all created things that (ARE) going To and FRO through out the earth.

Remember where it say the “invisible attributes of God can clearly be seen by the things created”, why is that ? it is becasue they are controlling those thing created and that gives them life and guides the way they live. It (IS) Spirits of GOD that do that (IN) those animals, Just as it is (IN) Us, only difference we have a Higher level of understanding , But each creature and even plants have their own gift of life Spirits from GOD that gives them the ability to live and survive. IMO

Pierre………..There are SEVEN of these ATTRIBUTES that compose one GOD who because (IT) is Spirit (IT) can live (IN) and outside of US. When God takes residence (IN) us we are considered Temples of the Living GOD. Remember Paul said that “Know you not that your bodies (ARE) the temple of the Living God.” GOD can indwell us just like he did another Man Jesus the Christ.

Pierre, i believe that one of the biggest problem in religion is people do not understand what Spirit really is, and that presents a stumbling-block to most . IMO

peace and love…………………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 04 2011,23:54)

In verse 15 the subject switches to Jesus, the embodiment of light in mankind. It's really pretty simple, I don't know why you're so baffled over John 1:1-15?

All,

I did a little exercise with Ed in the “Incarnation” thread a while back, because I knew how he was going to address John 1:14-15.  I asked him this question:

Quote

Worshipping Jesus became virtual, dwelled among us in the virtual world of Heaven Net, and we have seen his glory, the glory of your average Trinitarian.  Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN.  I want to know if you like him.  Do you?

To which he said:

Quote

Hi Mike, I do enjoy Kieth as being a part of the H-net family…..

To which I said:

Quote

But what made you think I was asking a question about Keith?

To which he said:

Quote

Hi Mike, Because of this post… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,04:32) Worshipping Jesus became virtual, dwelled among us in the virtual world of Heaven Net, and we have seen his glory, the glory of your average Trinitarian.  Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN.  I want to know if you like him.  Do you?

This exercise proved that Ed was capable of understanding basic rules of grammar.  It proved to me that Ed knew full well that the pronouns “his” and “him” in my sample question referred back to the aforementioned subject “Worshipping Jesus”.

Notice how I worded my sample question very similar to John 1:14-15, just to be safe.  And notice now how Ed is willing to ignore those same rules of grammar just to avoid 1:15 being about “the Word” – when it clearly is.

Ed, in my sample, you had no problem identifying “Worshipping Jesus” as the one to whom “his” and “him” applied.  Why then, in an almost identical situation, do you now seem to have a problem identifying “the Word” as the one to whom “his” and “him” applies?  

Ed, here is 1:14-15 again, but instead of using pronouns, I will use the name of the subject to which they actually refer:

14 The Word became flesh and made his THE WORD'S dwelling among us. We have seen his THE WORD'S glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testifies concerning him THE WORD. He cries out, saying, “This THE WORD was he THE WORD of whom I said, ‘He THE WORD who comes after me has surpassed me because he THE WORD was before me.’”

Ed, this is just the way it is.  And you KNOW it, based on your replies to my sample exercise about Keith.  Why you would now ignore what you clearly know, and attempt to make the scriptures form around YOUR understanding, instead of forming your understanding around the scriptures, is beyond me.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 05 2011,00:58)

At this stage I do not know enough about that to comment. My level of understanding here is that autos can be HE, SHE, IT, and I have not looked into other ways on how we know the difference except for context. But thanks for pointing this out. Have you got a link or reference I could check out?

Yep.

NETNotes

Look down to where it lists the Greek words.  Notice that the third and seventh Greek word from the left are “autou”.  Notice the black letters underneath the blue Strong numbers.

They say:  P-GSM  

The P means it is a pronoun.  

The G means the word is written in the genitive form (which to us, usually means we add the word “of” in front of it).  

The S means it is in the singular form, eliminating any possibility of it meaning “them”.

And the M means it was written in the masculine form, eliminating any possibility of it meaning “it” (which would be in the neuter form), or “she” (which would have been written in the feminine form).

The meanings of these letters are spelled out for you on Biblos.com.  If you hold your cursor over the blue letters, it will tell you what they mean.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 05 2011,05:57)

………in this way the Logs became Flesh (IN) Jesus.

Gene,

Where does scripture say the Logos became flesh IN JESUS?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 05 2011,22:57)

When are you going to see that brother

When are you going to see that God made all through and for his son.
It is written. We agree to this and you do not and there are scriptures that clearly state this.
No speculation needed.

I am looking at the whole counsel of scripture.

If God made all through the Word and through his son, and the word became flesh, and the son is called “The Word of God”, then I am only complying with all this.

You it seems are fighting against it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 05 2011,22:57)

T8……> Man is also made in the IMAGE of GOD, your above, post starts off right and then drifts into speculations, …………… peace and love…………………………………………………………….gene

Gene. Here is my post again.

Point out the speculations and I will in turn provide scripture that is almost word for word.

To the Greeks, the term Logos was used to describe the agency by which God created physical things. In short the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the physical realm.

I take it that you agree with the above and not what is below, so please quote that which is speculation below.

Is it then a coincidence that Jesus (Not Logos in this case) is identified as the mediator between man and God in 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Before he emptied himself and came in the flesh, he was the Word that was with God and existing in the form of God. Was he too the mediator between God and the material universe?

We know that Jesus mediates for us today. He is the one at the right hand of God. He is the one whom we must come through to know God.

To those that deny Jesus is the Word of God, are we to assume that no one could know God pre-2000 or so years ago to 14 billion years or however old the universe is. And if beings knew God pre-2000 years ago, in what name or path did they know the invisible God? God is a Spirit and he is invisible. He is also eternal. Explain to me how beings could see an eternal invisible spirit? Who was the chief spokesperson for this invisible eternal spirit?

At least we know that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the first born of all creation. Knowing this, such questions are answered for us because we know he is the full expression and image of God.

The other unanswered question for those that that believe Jesus is a 2000 year old man (only), is who was the first born of all creation. Who was the first? Michael? Gabriel? Who?

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 05 2011,18:55)

To the Greeks, the term Logos was used to describe the agency by which God created physical things. In short the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the physical realm. Is it then a coincidence that Jesus (Not Logos in this case) is identified as the mediator between man and God in 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Before he emptied himself and came in the flesh, he was the Word that was with God and existing in the form of God. Was he too the mediator between God and the material universe? We know that Jesus mediates for us today. He is the one at the right hand of God. He is the one whom we must come through to know God. To those that deny Jesus is the Word of God, are we to assume that no one could know God pre-2000 or so years ago to 14 billion years or however old the universe is. And if beings knew God pre-2000 years ago, in what name or path did they know the invisible God? God is a Spirit and he is invisible. He is also eternal. Explain to me how beings could see an eternal invisible spirit? Who was the chief spokesperson for this invisible eternal spirit? At least we know that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the first born of all creation. Knowing this, such questions are answered for us because we know he is the full expression and image of God. The other unanswered question for those that that believe Jesus is a 2000 year old man (only), is who was the first born of all creation. Who was the first? Michael? Gabriel? Who?

Hi T8,

(Jer.18:5) Then “The Word of the LORD” came to me, saying…

(Jer.2:1) Moreover “The Word of the LORD” came to me, saying…

(Ezekiel 12:26) Again “The Word of the LORD” came to me, saying…

(Ezekiel 12:17) Moreover “The Word of the LORD” came to me, saying…

Would you have us believe that these verses refer to (according to T8) Jesus, rather than God's “HolySpirit” coming to the Prophets?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Ed,

God's words came through the Holy Spirit, visions, dreams, angels and prophets. (Heb 1:1)

None of that changes the fact that Jesus has the title “the Word of God”, because he is God's main spokesperson.

[terraricca]

gene

Quote

Pierre………..There are SEVEN of these ATTRIBUTES that compose one GOD who because he is Spirit can live (IN) and outside of US. When God takes residence in us we are then considered Temples of the Living GOD. Remember Paul said that “Know you not that your bodies (ARE) the temple of the Living God.” GOD can indwell us just like he did another Man Jesus the Christ. Pierre, i believe that one of the biggest problem in religion is people do not understand what Spirit really is, and that presents a stumbling-block to most . IMO

I have quoted the scripture and what it says ,and you do not believe what it says ,and again slander me with ;;Pierre, i believe that one of the biggest problem in religion is people do not understand what Spirit really is, and that presents a stumbling-block to most

SO YOU NOW TELLING ME THAT I HAVE A PROBLEM IN RELIGION ;;AND YET IT IS YOU WHO REJECTING SCRIPTURES ;;THIS IS OUT OF MY UNDERSTANDING,

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 06 2011,09:31)

Ed, God's words came through the Holy Spirit, visions, dreams, angels and prophets.  (Heb 1:1) None of that changes the fact that Jesus has the title “the Word of God”, because he is God's main spokesperson.

Hi Mike,

My question was specifically: who do you think brought the word of God to the prophets?

Was is God's HolySpirit or was it Jesus?   <– Please answer this question; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Well, in the case of the burning bush, it was one of God's angels, who may or may not have been Jesus. But it sure wasn't God's Holy Spirit that spoke to Moses out of the bush.

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