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T8……….Notice carefully, for IN HIM was life. What was that life (IN) him , was it not the Eternal GOD who Jesus said was (IN) Him , now if you agree with this, then we can move on to see how this “LIFE” came to be (IN) the Man Jesus and In all Men who have (IT) in them. So this is the question
1…..Was that Life that was (IN) Jesus His own Life or the life derived from Spirit of the Living GOD?
2….. If we can agree that that eternal life that was (IN) him came from GOD the Father then we need to see in what way (IT) became
present (IN) Jesus ?3……. Did Jesus always have it as a Preexistent “Being”, or did he recieve it into him after his flesh berth on this earth. Scripture says John saw the Spirit descend down on him as a dove and remain on him, at the Jordan river after he was Baptized. This spirit was the Spirit of the living GOD. and that Spirit contained the LOGOS of GOD gave Jesus GOD'S Words ” intelligent utterance” This spirit (INTELLECT) was truly GOD first person and Present (IN) Him, and this is how the word (intelligence utterance) became flesh (IT) came to be (IN) Jesus our Lord.
We also can have that same Spirit (intellect) in us producing the same “WORD” intelligent utterances as it did (IN) Jesus. T8 remember where it say
let this “MIND” be (IN) you as was (IN) Christ Jesus our lord, and again if the Spirit of him who raised Christ Jesus from the grave be (IN) you (IT) shall “ALSO” Quicken your mortal body. There is no difference from the Spirit of GOD Which is his LOGOS being (IN) us Just as It was (IN) Jesus the Anointed .
John was not personifying the word , WORD, as a separate person at all T8, he was simple stating a fact, the word of God is and was GOD and God is a Spirit and So is His WORD and life, and that life can be (IN) Us just as (IT) was (IN) Jesus. God the Father was Present (IN) Jesus just as Thomas Came to see, remember T8….>My Lord (AND) My GOD .
peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 02 2011,19:52) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 02 2011,14:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2011,10:13) Hi Gene, t8 is asking when John stopped talking about God's Word and started talking about Jesus. For example:
Is verse 1 about Jesus? How about verse 2? 3? 4?
In which verse does John switch from talking about the Word to talking about Jesus?
(I believe that's what he's asking.)
Hi Mike,Verse 4 is when Jesus is brought in as the object,
yet the subject (“The Word”) continues until verse 14.
In verse 15 the subject switches to Jesus. I hope this helps.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.Funny thing Edj. You say Jesus is the HIM in verse 4 right?
But how can it be Jesus if the preceding verses do not identify Jesus at all? What makes you think it is Jesus if the subjects before are not Jesus?HIM has to be either God or the Word as they are the only ones/ITs identified so far.
Additionally, the word HIM in verse 4 is “autos” which is exactly the same word that refers to the Word and Gene and I guess yourself believe and teach that the Word is an IT.
Neither of your views add up.
Hi T8,Quote Funny thing Edj. You say Jesus is the HIM in verse 4 right?
NopeCivil conversation is always what works best.
I said: Jesus is brought in as the “OBJECT” in verse 4.
In him(The Word) was life; and the life(Jesus) was the light of men.
John 17:21: “Father(The Word), art in me(the Life), and I(Jesus) in thee(The Word)”
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 02 2011,06:42) T8……….Notice carefully, for IN HIM was life. What was that life (IN) him , was it not the Eternal GOD who Jesus said was (IN) Him , now if you agree with this, then we can move on to see how this “LIFE” came to be (IN) the Man Jesus
Gene……………….Notice carefully:If the one the life was in is JESUS, then Jesus must be the Word.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.See Gene? In “HIM” was life. And you just said the “HIM” was Jesus. But look back at verses 1, 2, and 3 and tell me where “Jesus” is mentioned. Like t8 pointed out to Ed, the only two things mentioned up to this point are “God” and “the Word”. So the pronoun “HIM” absolutely MUST BE speaking of either “God” or “the Word”.
Yet YOU say it was JESUS who the life was in. You are correct, you know. I just want you to follow what you already know to be the truth back to the beginning of the chapter and see that there is no way the
“in HIM was life” could be attibuted to “Jesus” unless Jesus is “the Word”.Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 01 2011,21:34) the subject (“The Word”) continues until verse 14.
In verse 15 the subject switches to Jesus. I hope this helps.
It might help if you could show us how this is possible.14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
You need to explain how we're talking about “the Word”, and referring to the Word using the pronoun “his” in verse 14. But then all of a sudden, we use the pronoun “him” in verse 15 and start talking about a completely different subject that hasn't even been mentioned.
Ed, remember the exercise we just did in the “Incarnation” thread? Remember how you KNEW the pronouns “his” and “him” referred back to Keith, because he was the last subject listed?
It is the same here. The “his” from verse 14 AND the “him” from verse 15 both refer back to the last subject of discussion – which was “the Word” in verse 14.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,14:15) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 01 2011,21:34) the subject (“The Word”) continues until verse 14.
In verse 15 the subject switches to Jesus. I hope this helps.
It might help if you could show us how this is possible.14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
You need to explain how we're talking about “the Word”, and referring to the Word using the pronoun “his” in verse 14. But then all of a sudden, we use the pronoun “him” in verse 15 and start talking about a completely different subject that hasn't even been mentioned.
Ed, remember the exercise we just did in the “Incarnation” thread? Remember how you KNEW the pronouns “his” and “him” referred back to Keith, because he was the last subject listed?
It is the same here. The “his” from verse 14 AND the “him” from verse 15 both refer back to the last subject of discussion – which was “the Word” in verse 14.
Hi Mike,Quote You need to explain how we're talking about “the Word”, and referring to the Word using the pronoun “his” in verse 14. But then all of a sudden, we use the pronoun “him” in verse 15 and start talking about a completely different subject that hasn't even been mentioned.
Jesus is brought up as the new subject in the last part of verse 14… “as of the only begotten of the Father”
…this is because Jesus was as of yet the only son “The Word” had begotten. (See James 1:18 and 1Peter 1:23)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgBut it was THE WORD that became flesh, dwelled on earth, and had the glory of God's only begotten, Ed.
I know you WANT it to say, “The Word CAME TO BE IN someone who was flesh, and THAT PERSON INTO WHOM THE WORD CAME had the glory of God's only begotten”.
But it simply doesn't say that. You are taking totally illogical liberties with simple language rules to make the words fit around what you want them to say. That is not the way to truth, Ed.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,14:31) But it was THE WORD that became flesh, dwelled on earth, and had the glory of God's only begotten, Ed. I know you WANT it to say, “The Word CAME TO BE IN someone who was flesh, and THAT PERSON INTO WHOM THE WORD CAME had the glory of God's only begotten”.
But it simply doesn't say that. You are taking totally illogical liberties with simple language rules to make the words fit around what you want them to say. That is not the way to truth, Ed.
Hi Mike, these verses “may” help you to understand who “The Word” is…the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 03 2011,11:03) In him(The Word) was life; and the life(Jesus) was the light of men.
Hi Ed.Thanks for your reply.
At least you didn't try to avoid my question and was straight up.I will think about what you have said and get back.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 03 2011,19:39) OK, first thought for now is you are saying that Jesus was IN the Word.
Is that correct?
Hi T8,Yep, like our DNA is in our parents.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgOkay Ed,
Then follow your claim through logically:
1. 14 The Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
That still says it was the Word who became flesh. It does not say “the Light inside the Word became flesh”.
2. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This is still speaking of the Word. So it would mean that the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS) was what had the glory of God's only begotten. It would not mean that the Light that was IN the Word had the glory of God's only begotten.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Since no new subject has been addressed, this would also still be speaking of the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS). So it would mean that John said the underlined words about the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS). It would not mean that John said the underlined words about the Light that was INSIDE the Word.
Ed, are you able to see this?
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 02 2011,22:35) Hi Mike, these verses “may” help you to understand who “The Word” is… The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)
Ed,You and I have discussed these scriptures already. I will try once again:
Heb 7
Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Ed, read ALL OF Hebrews 7. Then you will know that since Jesus was a descendent of Judah, and not Levi, he was not made Priest in the normal way. He was made Priest because of the oath (word) of God as quoted above.
You attempt to make this scripture say “THE WORD CREATED JESUS”. It does not say that. Instead, it speaks of Jesus (NOT BEING CREATED), but being APPOINTED as High Priest.
He was appointed by an oath (word) that God had spoken saying, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
You understand Heb 7 to say that the Word (HOLY SPIRIT) created Jesus. Instead, it says that Jesus was appointed as High Priest by the word (oath, promise) that God made to him.
Ed, are you able to understand that Heb 7 doesn't speak of the CREATION of Jesus, but of his APPOINTMENT to High Priest?
ED j………I knew you were getting into problems by agree with what T8 said brother, I believe you meant to say the Word was (IN) Jesus not that Jesus “Preexisted as the Word, before his berth. They drew you into that one brother. IMO.
peace and love……………………………………………………………..gene
Mike……..Now you “CAREFULY” notice the word you use as “HE” is really rendered as “THIS” 193 times in the New Testement, 69 times as these, 37times as same 2 times as thus, i time as hereof , 1 time as such, 1 time as which, 1 time as who.
but never as a HE , (IT) would be far more appropriate word but the best would be “THIS OR THESE” According to the GREEK.
peace and love………………………..gene
Gene,
Which word from which verse are you talking about? Which “HE”?
And why don't you want to address my post? If you say Jesus is the Light that came into the world, you need to follow that back to the beginning of the chapter, and show where “Jesus” was ever mentioned.
Because the pronoun “him” cannot possibly refer BACK to Jesus unless Jesus was previously mentioned. This is just basic rules of grammar, Gene.
So…………….WHERE was “Jesus” mentioned in verses 1, 2 or 3 to the point that the “him” could refer BACK to Jesus?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 04 2011,09:59) Mike……..Now you “CAREFULY” notice the word you use as “HE” is really rendered as “THIS” 193 times in the New Testement, 69 times as these, 37times as same 2 times as thus, i time as hereof , 1 time as such, 1 time as which, 1 time as who. but never as a HE , (IT) would be far more appropriate word but the best would be “THIS OR THESE” According to the GREEK.
peace and love………………………..gene
GeneNow I wander,who is behind the words you speak ?
And who is behind the thoughts and behind the meaning of the words you speak ?And one more thing ,where was the thought from the beginning hiding?
Or was it generated by you ?But if my name would be The Word, would that mean that I would be just a word or would I respond to that name ?
In scriptures many received names that ad meaning to it ,like Adam,Eve,Abel,Seth,Abraham,Moses, and so on,of cause the greatest name of all is Gods name,and then comes the name of Christ and he is called THe Word Of. GOD,John:1;1 and Revelation 19
With all we know about the son of God we surely can say that he bears his name very well THE WORD of GOD ,is he not the one trough whom we all have learn the good news of the kingdom ?yes it is.
We have to accept the scriptures the way they are ,if not we may reject Gods work to have broth it to us in these time and in our lives for our salvation,do not confuse words with THE WORD OF GOD,the living son of God
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2011,01:34) Okay Ed, Then follow your claim through logically:
1. 14 The Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
That still says it was the Word who became flesh. It does not say “the Light inside the Word became flesh”.
2. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This is still speaking of the Word. So it would mean that the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS) was what had the glory of God's only begotten. It would not mean that the Light that was IN the Word had the glory of God's only begotten.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Since no new subject has been addressed, this would also still be speaking of the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS). So it would mean that John said the underlined words about the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS). It would not mean that John said the underlined words about the Light that was INSIDE the Word.
Ed, are you able to see this?
Hi Mike,1) The Word (WHICH WAS IN JESUS) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
Quote It does not say “the Light inside the Word became flesh”.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1John 1:5)2) We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
So it would mean that the Word (WHICH WAS IN JESUS) was the glory of God's only begotten.3) (15) John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Quote (A)Since no new subject has been addressed, this would also still be speaking of the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS). (B)So it would mean that John said the underlined words about the Word (IN WHICH JESUS WAS). (C)It would not mean that John said the underlined words about the Light that was INSIDE the Word.
3. A) I have addressed this.
B) John's focus in now on Jesus in particular.
C) Part of John's focus is why Jesus was preferred before him.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2011,01:45) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 02 2011,22:35) Hi Mike, these verses “may” help you to understand who “The Word” is… The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)
Ed,You and I have discussed these scriptures already. I will try once again:
Heb 7
Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
(1)Ed, read ALL OF Hebrews 7. Then you will know that since Jesus was a descendent of Judah, and not Levi, he was not made Priest in the normal way. He was made Priest because of the oath (word) of God as quoted above.
(2)You attempt to make this scripture say “THE WORD CREATED JESUS”. It does not say that. Instead, it speaks of Jesus (NOT BEING CREATED), but being APPOINTED as High Priest.
(3)He was appointed by an oath (word) that God had spoken saying, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
(4)You understand Heb 7 to say that the Word (HOLY SPIRIT) created Jesus. (A)Instead, it says that Jesus was appointed as High Priest by the word (oath, promise) that God made to him.
(5)Ed, are you able to understand that Heb 7 doesn't speak of the CREATION of Jesus, but of his APPOINTMENT to High Priest?
Hi Mike,1) Yes, but that does not discount the other as truth as well. That is a (“Reductive Fallacy”) on your part.
2) That is what the text “is” saying, no trying on my part.
3) A priest forever as in he cannot die again.
4) Both points are true, (A)That is a (“Reductive Fallacy”) on your part.
(See Link for definition of a “Reductive Fallacy”.)5) It speaks of both.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 03 2011,11:16) 1) The Word (WHICH WAS IN JESUS) became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
Whoa, whoa, whoa……………let me stop you before you even get started.The scripture says the Light was IN THE WORD. It does not say the Word was IN THE LIGHT.
Your conclusion cannot possibly be accurate, because you have started off by switching around the scriptural words.
Please try again using the correct words, ie: The Light was IN THE WORD – not the other way around.
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