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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,09:56) t8, Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach “Jesus is the Word of God who later came in the flesh for our sakes.” This is nothing but a foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine of mere men and a twisting of Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Frank the very thing you deny is written in the very scripture being discussed. Yes I could provide other scriptures, but the one we are talking about is enough on its own.JOHN 1:1-3,10 NKJ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.Read verses 3 and 4.
We teach verses 3 & 4 and you oppose them.
If you are honest you will see this is the case.We believe all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made and in him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
You do not believe this.
T8……….It is not “HE” was in the beginning with GOD it is (IT) was in the beginning with God, a Word is not a “HE” it is an “IT”. It was with GOD, in the beginning and “WAS” GOD. GOD a Spirit (intellect) and it (GOD) is expressed in WORDS , God and the Word are one and the same. Jesus [plainly said that remember, the words i am telling you are spirit and are life now what is Spirit and Life? the words Jesus was telling us That was the Father Yahweh (IN) him speaking through him via the LOGOS which (ARE) SPIRIT. Or don't you believe Jesus when he said the FATHER was (IN) HIM? Even Doubting Thomas finally got the picture remember? MY Lord (AND) MY GOD When are you going to come to see the T8. GOD was IN Christ Jesus through his anointing Spirit reconciling the World unto unto himself That was a work of GOD being done (IN) him not the work of Jesus , Jesus was simply going along with the Father who was (IN) HIM and Speaking Through HIM> GOD is SPIRIT T8 and Spirit is Not a Person it is what is (IN) a Person. God the Father who is Yahweh was truly (IN) Jesus via HIS Spirit which is His LOGOS> Just that simple. Nothing complicated about it T8.
I love you brother , but you really are wrong on this one T8. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………….gene
All things were made by/through him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Him = autos {ow-tos'} pronoun,
Definition:
himself, herself, themselves, itself
he, she, itSo as you can see it has a smaller chance on the outset as meaning “it” and a greater chance of meaning “him, he, etc”.
So who is right here. Well surely other scriptures should point the way if a verse can have multiple meanings.
Hebrews 1:2 backs up my view and not yours because it says the same thing but instead of “it” it says “the son” and we know the son is a person and that person is Jesus Christ.
In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe. …
So yes on the outset you could argue that John 1:2-3 is talking about an IT, but the wider range of meaning is narrowed down when you consider other similar scriptures that absolutely and irrefutably talk about a person as the one whom God created all things through.
So this is an epic fail for you Gene.
Additionally even if you were to only include the Book of John, then even that book defines the Word as Jesus Christ.
“In him was life; and the life was the light of men” aligns with the words of Jesus who said, “I AM the life”.
Also notice that this supposed IT is the LIGHT of men and later in John it identifies clearly that this light is Jesus Christ.
John 1:4-10
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.
8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.And it says that John was not that light, rather it was the one whom God made all things through.
Now we know that John is not an IT as much as he is a HE and thus it happily considers a HE as being the light, but says not that particualar HE.
So Gene, with your philosophy, you do the following:- You have to deny that Jesus is that light that lights all men that come into the world.
- You have to deny that when the world didn't recognize him, it didn't recognize an IT because the light you refer to is and IT.
So you are obviously wrong and your view is like a bucket with holes in it.
It cannot hold truth, it simply falls out.You see Gene. The Word that was WITH God is the light of men and these very men didn't recognise him when he stood before them.
You preach a different Jesus and that is a serious thing Gene.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 29 2011,20:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,12:47) Frank, What is your direct answer to question #1?
How about question #2?
Mike,I have previously given answers to both of these questions in my previous posts which you have conveniently chose to ignore. I am also quite aware that others here who believe as I do have also answered both of these questions which you have also chose to ignore.
Frank,I only made the connection between verses 29-30 and verses 14-15 just last week…………..Thursday I believe.
So when did you answer my questions? I have seen no answer from you about this connection.
Please either bump the post where you answered “YES or NO” to my two questions for me so I can see it, or just post “YES or NO” again to each question. Because they are truly simple questions, Frank. You either CAN see from verse 29 that John says certain words in verse 30 about Jesus………….or you CAN'T.
You either CAN see from verse 14 that John says certain words in verse 15 about the Word…………..or you CAN'T.
Which one is it? CAN you see it in verses 29-30 or NOT? CAN you see it in verses 14-15 or NOT?
About the others answering my point, Gene has offered “What business is that of yours?” as his response. And I'm still working slowly towards a result with Ed and Kerwin on another thread.
So exactly which other member have you seen answer my questions?
Frank, they are simple “YES or NO” questions – both of them. Please just answer them DIRECTLY…………….if you can.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 30 2011,14:59) All things were made by/through him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Him = autos {ow-tos'} pronoun,
Definition:
himself, herself, themselves, itself
he, she, itSo as you can see it has a smaller chance on the outset as meaning “it” and a greater chance of meaning “him, he, etc”.
Actually t8, it is not even left to chance. Both mentions of “autos” in John 1:3 are written in the singular, masculine form. The fact that it is singular eliminates any possibility of it meaning “them”. And the fact that it is masculine eliminates “she” and “it”.“She” would be written in the feminine form of the word, “it” would be written in the neuter form, and “them” would be written in the plural form.
The word “autos” in 1:3 most definitely, and without a doubt, refers to a “him” and nothing else.
peace,
mikeQuote (t8 @ Nov. 30 2011,17:28) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,09:56) t8, Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach “Jesus is the Word of God who later came in the flesh for our sakes.” This is nothing but a foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine of mere men and a twisting of Father Yahweh's prophetic inspired word.
Frank the very thing you deny is written in the very scripture being discussed. Yes I could provide other scriptures, but the one we are talking about is enough on its own.JOHN 1:1-3,10 NKJ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.Read verses 3 and 4.
We teach verses 3 & 4 and you oppose them.
If you are honest you will see this is the case.We believe all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made and in him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
You do not believe this.
T8,Again nowhere in Scripture does it EVER SAY, AND I QUOTE!: “”Jesus is the Word of God who later came in the flesh for our sakes.” Scripture simply does not SAY this and since it does not SAY this it must certainly be a perversion (twisting or wresting) of what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS! You erroneously say “It is written!” when in fact you will not find such a foolish QUOTE WRITTEN in Scripture. You can not provide even one verse of Scripture that EVER SAYS such foolishness!
Quote We believe all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made and in him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. No, I do not believe this! Is it not obvious to you that I do not believe this? I have made it quite clear MANY TIMES in this forum a, but you and Mike continue to harass me that I should believe what it is that you believe and teach when Scripture NOWHERE asks me to believe or confess such foolishness. I am certainly not going to base any belief that I have on a FEW Greek words that have been translated into our English language as “By” And “Through” when there are SOME 107 Scriptural verses and passages that SAY and PROCLAIM that Father Yahweh “ALONE and “BY HIMSELF” created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that there was “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” who helped in in His creating. You are stuck to your “TWINITY” doctrine just as Trinitarians are stuck to their “TRINITY” doctrine. I am not a Trinitarian and I am not a Twinitarian as you are. When are you two fools going to face the fact that I will never believe the foolishness that you believe?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,08:29) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 29 2011,20:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,12:47) Frank, What is your direct answer to question #1?
How about question #2?
Mike,I have previously given answers to both of these questions in my previous posts which you have conveniently chose to ignore. I am also quite aware that others here who believe as I do have also answered both of these questions which you have also chose to ignore.
Frank,I only made the connection between verses 29-30 and verses 14-15 just last week…………..Thursday I believe.
So when did you answer my questions? I have seen no answer from you about this connection.
Please either bump the post where you answered “YES or NO” to my two questions for me so I can see it, or just post “YES or NO” again to each question. Because they are truly simple questions, Frank. You either CAN see from verse 29 that John says certain words in verse 30 about Jesus………….or you CAN'T.
You either CAN see from verse 14 that John says certain words in verse 15 about the Word…………..or you CAN'T.
Which one is it? CAN you see it in verses 29-30 or NOT? CAN you see it in verses 14-15 or NOT?
About the others answering my point, Gene has offered “What business is that of yours?” as his response. And I'm still working slowly towards a result with Ed and Kerwin on another thread.
So exactly which other member have you seen answer my questions?
Frank, they are simple “YES or NO” questions – both of them. Please just answer them DIRECTLY…………….if you can.
Mike,You know quite well that I do not believe as you do!
That's right, Frank. And I'm trying to show you from the EXACT SCRIPTURAL WORDS that were written that I am the one believing scripturally, while you are not.
Frank, if the scriptures actually backed YOUR doctrine, then it would be easy for you to address each issue someone asked you about. If that was the case, then I wouldn't spend so much of my time here PLEADING with people to just answer the dang questions.
So, which is it Frank? Are you UNABLE to answer my simple questions? Or are you AFRAID to?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 01 2011,08:42) T8, Again nowhere in Scripture does it EVER SAY, AND I QUOTE!: “”Jesus is the Word of God who later came in the flesh for our sakes.” Scripture simply does not SAY this and since it does not SAY this it must certainly be a perversion (twisting or wresting) of what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS! You erroneously say “It is written!” when in fact you will not find such a foolish QUOTE WRITTEN in Scripture. You can not provide even one verse of Scripture that EVER SAYS such foolishness!
Frank. John 1:3 onward is absolutely talking of Jesus and thus the Word can only be identified as him and further more it is Antichrist to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
If it was the Word that became flesh, then Jesus must be the Word because Jesus came in the flesh.
Can you admit Frank that Jesus CAME in the flesh, or do you really confess that Jesus IS the flesh. Because the latter is a serious lie.
Back to John 1, even if it doesn't mention Jesus himself it is still him and anyone can see that.
However it actually does mention him personally from verse 17 onward and it is clear that preceding that, it is the same person being spoken of.
It truly is not hard to see it unless your glasses filter this possibility to begin with.John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
John 1:19And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John 1:35Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
John 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
John 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
John 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
John 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
John 1:43The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
John 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2011,20:26) God and His word or Words are one and the Same. Mike think a man and his word or words are not the same
Gene, do you see the words “his” in your post? Are you unaware that the word “his” represents a POSSESSION OF someone?HIS words. THEIR thoughts. HER spirit. MY soul.
Gene, each of the capped words above are words that indicate possession. If a word can be said to be “HIS” or “HERS”, then that word cannot also BE “HIM” or “HER”. Instead, it would be a POSSESSION OF “HIM” or “HER”.
But, let's take a look at it your way for a minute. If the Words OF God were actually God Himself, are you saying that God Himself was WITH God Himself in the beginning?
Are you also saying that God Himself is who became flesh and dwelled among us with the glory of the only begotten from the Father?
Walk me through it, Gene. I'll get you started:
“Mike, since the Word in John 1:1 IS God Himself, this is what the rest of John 1 teaches:”
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2011,07:59) All things were made by/through him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Him = autos {ow-tos'} pronoun,
Definition:
himself, herself, themselves, itself
he, she, itSo as you can see it has a smaller chance on the outset as meaning “it” and a greater chance of meaning “him, he, etc”.
So who is right here. Well surely other scriptures should point the way if a verse can have multiple meanings.
Hebrews 1:2 backs up my view and not yours because it says the same thing but instead of “it” it says “the son” and we know the son is a person and that person is Jesus Christ.
In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe. …
So yes on the outset you could argue that John 1:2-3 is talking about an IT, but the wider range of meaning is narrowed down when you consider other similar scriptures that absolutely and irrefutably talk about a person as the one whom God created all things through.
So this is an epic fail for you Gene.
Additionally even if you were to only include the Book of John, then even that book defines the Word as Jesus Christ.
“In him was life; and the life was the light of men” aligns with the words of Jesus who said, “I AM the life”.
Also notice that this supposed IT is the LIGHT of men and later in John it identifies clearly that this light is Jesus Christ.
John 1:4-10
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.
8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.And it says that John was not that light, rather it was the one whom God made all things through.
Now we know that John is not an IT as much as he is a HE and thus it happily considers a HE as being the light, but says not that particualar HE.
So Gene, with your philosophy, you do the following:- You have to deny that Jesus is that light that lights all men that come into the world.
- You have to deny that when the world didn't recognize him, it didn't recognize an IT because the light you refer to is and IT.
So you are obviously wrong and your view is like a bucket with holes in it.
It cannot hold truth, it simply falls out.You see Gene. The Word that was WITH God is the light of men and these very men didn't recognise him when he stood before them.
You preach a different Jesus and that is a serious thing Gene.
T8,No, it would be a greater chance that Father Yahweh's word would be properly translated as an it, since logically Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself. In translating the context of what is being said as a whole is taken into consideration over word meanings. The same is also true with our English language and their meanings of specific words used in diverse context. One does not go to a dictionary to find the meaning of a word that they find in a particular sentence and then choose the meaning of the word that is most used in that dictionary. They would instead choose the meaning that best fits with the context of what is being said in the sentence as a whole. Since we already know that Scripture SOME 107 TIMES says that Father Yahweh “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that when He created that there was “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” in His creating, we can only logically conclude with what it actually SAYS in context of Scripture as a whole that Father Yahweh's word is an “it” and not a separate being as a “him” or a “he” apart from Himself. The whole point of the Trinitarian translation that you give reference to was to deceive others to also believe in a “Pre-existent Son” to support their false “Triune God”. Do you believe that Father Yahweh's set apart (“holy, sacred”) spirit is also a separate being apart from Himself, since personification is also used in reference to it in translation? If so, you are not far from being a Trinitarian yourself! In fact, you would only be one step away! All you would need is to have a Trinitarian to badger you into believing as they do that Yahweh's set apart (“Holy”) Spirit Is A He and a separate being apart from Himself and not an “it”.
The Holy Spirit Is An It!
The Holy Spirit Is Not A Person!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,09:13) Frank, Do you believe the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 is applied to Jesus?
Mike,Why is it that you feel that I need to repeat myself over to you again and again? If you have not heard what I have said the first time, how do you expect me to believe that you will hear me the second time?
Quote Frank, Do you believe the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 is applied to Jesus?
You know that I do, since I have clearly made it known in my previous posts. I also said in connection with my belief that the name/title “The Word of Yahweh” in Rev 19:13 is applied to Yahshua to note that this does not say “Yahshua Is The Word of Yahweh”. It says that his name is called “The Word of Yahweh”. This does not mean that he IS the [W]ord of Yahweh! Yahshua's name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” because he is the spokesman of His and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak (Yahchanan [John] 12:49).
Yahshua said:
“… the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (Yahchanan [John] 14:11)
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,17:38) Yahshua's name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” because he is the spokesman of His and our Father
And do you agree that “the Word” from John 1 is also actually “the Word of God”? Or do you believe John 1 refers to someone else's word?Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2011,09:08) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Dec. 01 2011,08:42) T8, Again nowhere in Scripture does it EVER SAY, AND I QUOTE!: “”Jesus is the Word of God who later came in the flesh for our sakes.” Scripture simply does not SAY this and since it does not SAY this it must certainly be a perversion (twisting or wresting) of what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS! You erroneously say “It is written!” when in fact you will not find such a foolish QUOTE WRITTEN in Scripture. You can not provide even one verse of Scripture that EVER SAYS such foolishness!
Frank. John 1:3 onward is absolutely talking of Jesus and thus the Word can only be identified as him and further more it is Antichrist to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
If it was the Word that became flesh, then Jesus must be the Word because Jesus came in the flesh.
Can you admit Frank that Jesus CAME in the flesh, or do you really confess that Jesus IS the flesh. Because the latter is a serious lie.
Back to John 1, even if it doesn't mention Jesus himself it is still him and anyone can see that.
However it actually does mention him personally from verse 17 onward and it is clear that preceding that, it is the same person being spoken of.
It truly is not hard to see it unless your glasses filter this possibility to begin with.John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
John 1:19And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John 1:35Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
John 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
John 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
John 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
John 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
John 1:43The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
John 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
T8,No, Yahchanan [John] 1:3 onward is a
bsolutely NOT talking of Yahshua, but is speaking of Father Yahweh's word in the beginning. Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself. Father Yahweh's word can NOT only be identified as Yahshua, since it says in translation “… and the word was God”, not “Jesus”. I am not anti-messiah since I believe that Yahshua came in the flesh. I also believe that Father Yahweh's word was manifest (MADE KNOWN or REVEALED) in the flesh TROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua. Yahshua is not the word of Yahweh! Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach such foolishness! Yahshua is the spokesman of Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Here I go again, repeating myself to you two fools over and over again! See my previous post where I have said this same thing with added Scriptural references!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,10:41) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,17:38) Yahshua's name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” because he is the spokesman of His and our Father
And do you agree that “the Word” from John 1 is also actually “the Word of God”? Or do you believe John 1 refers to someone else's word?
Mike,I am no longer going to repeat myself over and over again to you. From here on I will ignore both you and T8!
12 Proofs the Messiah DID NOT Pre-Exist!
The plan of YEHOVAH God has been overlooked by the people in this world because they have accepted the PAGAN DOCTRINE of a pre-existent savior who did it all for them — which has been taught to them by the SERVANTS OF SATAN! This pagan doctrine was contrived for the purpose of BLINDING people's minds to the TRUE Savior sent by YEHOVAH, and to YEHOVAH's true plan of bringing His sons to perfection. The following proofs show that Yeshua the Messiah NEVER EXISTED prior to his human birth in Bethlehem two thousand years ago.
John D. Keyser
Proof #1
1/. Hebrews 6:13, 16. In Hebrews 6:13 and 16 we read —
“For when YEHOVAH made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by NO ONE GREATER, He swore by Himself.
“For men indeed swear by the GREATER, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute.”
In these inspired verses we find that there was NO GREATER BEING by Whom to confirm this promise to Abraham. However, this goes against the doctrines of the Trinity and of the PRE-EXISTENCE — for if Yeshua pre-existed as an equal to the Father as many believe, this promise would have been ratified by BOTH the Father AND the Son. This is because neither one would be greater than the other. But, we are clearly shown in these scriptures that (1): Not only was Yeshua NON-EXISTENT at the time the promise was made to Abraham, but (2) we find that YEHOVAH the Father is greater than the Son. This emphatically disproves the pagan Christian doctrines of the Trinity and of the pre-existent Savior.
Proof #2
2/. Matthew 24:36. Note carefully this statement which the Messiah made — which also proves there is no one greater than YEHOVAH God —
“But of that day and hour NO ONE KNOWS, no, not even the an-gels of heaven, but my Father ONLY.
Now, if the Messiah was — as some teach today — YEHOVAH (or God) of the Old Testament, then he would be “The Father” and he would know the day and hour of his Second Appearance! But he clearly shows here that he does NOT know that day and hour — ONLY the heavenly Father knows.
Similarly, if the Messiah had pre-existed ALONGSIDE the Father from at least the Creation as an equal or “second God,” then he would have been a being who possessed ALL KNOWLEDGE, just as the Father does, and he still would have known the day and the hour of his appearance.
Proof #3
3/. I John 5:7. The Old Testament prophets nowhere promulgated a doctrine about a “pre-existent savior” — and neither did the Messiah or the apostles in the New Testament. But the pagans, anxious to incorporate this doctrine (which was one of THEIR oldest and most honored) into their “Christian” religion, went so far as to ADD verses to the Bible to prove their doctrine of pre-existence and the Trinity. This is something the scriptures adamantly condemn.
Here is a verse that was ADDED for this very reason —
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (I John 5:7).
What is wrong with this scripture? Simply this: This entire verse is NOT even found in the Greek writings before the year 400 A.D.! The apostle John NEVER wrote this — nor would it have ever entered his mind!
The later translators knew this verse was ADDED and bogus, yet they failed to italicize it, which is a standard practice to show the reader that those particular words and phrases were added. This, in itself, proves that those in control of translating the scriptures were those who embraced the doctrines of paganism — and NOT the every word of YEHOVAH God!
The Emphatic Diaglott, page 803, shows this verse MISSING in their translation — and also explains WHY —
7. The received text reads, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” This text concerning the heavenly witnesses is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the 15th century. It is not cited by any of the Greek ecclesiastical writers; nor by any of the early Latin fathers, even when the subject upon which they treat would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious; and was first cited (though not as it now reads) by Vigilius Tapsensis, a Latin writer of no credit, in the latter end of the fifth century; but by whom forged, is of no great moment, as its design must be obvious to all. — Improved Version.
Adam Clarke, in his Clarke's Commentary, goes on to tell us:
Verse 7. [There are three that bear record] The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.
But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.
It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.
The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:-
“6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, &c.”
The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:– [In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one and there are three which bear witness in earth.]
However, we will allow the book Forgery in Christianity, by Joseph Wheless, to explain WHY this was not deleted by some of the later Bible versions —
Erasmus first detected the fraud and omitted the forged verse in his edition of the Greek Testament in 1516. (New Comm. Pt. III, p. 718-19.) This verse 7, bluntly speaking, is a forgery: “It had been willfully and wickedly interpolated, to sustain the Trinitarian doctrine; it has been entirely omitted by the Revisers of the New Testament.” (Roberts, Companion to the Revised Version, p. 72) “This memorable text,” says Gibbon, “is condemned by the silence of the Fathers, ancient versions, and authentic manuscripts, of all the manuscripts now extant, above four score in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old.” (Ch. xxvii, p. 598.) Speaking of this and another, Reinach says: “One of these forgeries (I John v, 7) was subjected to interpolation of a later date…If these two verses were authentic, they would be an affirmation of the doctrine of the Trinity, at a time when the gospels, and Acts and St. Paul ignore it. It was first pointed out in 1516 that these verses were an interpolation, for they do not appear in the best manuscripts down to the fifteenth century. The Roman Church refused to bow to the evidence…The Congregation of the Index, on January 13, 1897, with the approbation of Leo XIII, forbade any question of the authenticity of the text relating to the “Three Heavenly Witnesses.” It showed in this instance a willful ignorance to which St. Gregory's rebuke is specially applicable: 'God does not need our lies.'” (Orpheus, p.
239.) But His Church does; for without them it would not be; and with out the forged “Three Heavenly Witnesses,” there would be not a word in the entire New Testament hinting the existence of the Three-in-One God of Christianity. The Holy Trinity is an unholy Forgery!The first perpetrator of this FRAUD added the pagan doctrine of the Trinity to the Bible — that there are three gods in one: the Father (one), the “Word” (Yeshua the Messiah; two) and the Holy Spirit, a personified third god (three). However, the other perpetrators of this false doctrine are just as guilty of deception since they DID NOT remove this verse from subsequent versions of the Bible when they uncovered the truth about it!
In naming the second person of this Trinity the “Word,” the perpetrators of I John 5:7 were also promulgating the FALSEHOOD of the pagan concept found in John 1:1 (KJV) — which says:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Take note that the word “Word” is CAPITALIZED in this verse — in order to make it appear as though this were speaking about a being or a person. And, in this particular case, the translators of the King James Version did want you to believe that the “Word” was God, and that “He” was “in the beginning WITH God” — that “He” was pre-existent and equal with YEHOVAH.
It is interesting to note that in the Chaldee Targums (paraphrases of parts of the Old Testament written in the Chaldee language) we find that YEHOVAH God is called “the Word of the Lord” and equated with the Shekinah Glory! It is, in fact, common practice in the Targums to find the word LORD (YEHOVAH) translated “the Word of the Lord” — notice:
KING JAMES VERSION. Numbers 10:35, 36: “And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD [YEHOVAH], and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee. And when it rested, he said, Return, O LORD [YEHOVAH], unto the many thousands of Israel.”
This latter part becomes, in the Targums:
CHALDEE TARGUMS. Numbers 10:36: “Return now, O WORD OF THE LORD, to Thy people Israel, make the glory of Thy SHEKINAH to dwell among them, and have mercy on the thousands of Israel.”
Now look at Numbers 11:20:
KING JAMES VERSION. Numbers 11:20: “Because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you.”
CHALDEE TARGUMS. Numbers 11:20: “Because ye have contemptuously rejected THE WORD OF THE LORD whose SHEKINAH dwelleth among you.”
The Greek word “Logos” was very dear to pagan minds; but, nevertheless, should properly have been translated “MANIFESTATION” or “SHEKINAH GLORY” in this case — and certainly not confused with Yeshua the Messiah!
The MANIFESTATION OF YEHOVAH God was with YEHOVAH “in the beginning,” and it was YEHOVAH's manifestation (Greek possessive form). YEHOVAH's manifestation (or Shekinah Glory) was with him in the beginning, and His manifestation was His very own, as we see in the first chapter of the Book of Genesis, where YEHOVAH said: “Let there be light; and there was light.”
Proof #4
4/. John 1:14. In John 1:14 we find that according to (or by) YEHOVAH's manifestation (Shekinah Glory) flesh was CREATED. That Yeshua was born after being begotten by his father Joseph, and being CONCEIVED by his mother Mary, is a scriptural FACT. Those who believe John says that the Messiah was conceived by YEHOVAH God planting sperm within Mary should read what John says further on in his book! Notice —
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the SON OF JOSEPH, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (John 6:42).
The Messiah's neighbors in Nazareth had NO doubt as to who his father was — and there was no question that JOSEPH was the Messiah's legitimate father! Of course — like any other baby — YEHOVAH's Shekinah Glory was NOT with Yeshua at his birth; he had to LEARN YEHOVAH's laws and commandments and way of life as he grew. But when he reached the age of about 30 years old and had entered into YEHOVAH's ministry, he was the walking, speaking manifestation (dabar-logos) of YEHOVAH God, because he knew the truth of YEHOVAH, he obeyed the truth of YEHOVAH, and he proclaimed the truth of YEHOVAH!
And what is YEHOVAH's “truth”? Psalm 119:142 and Psalm 119:151 show that YEHOVAH's LAW and COMMANDMENTS are “the truth.”
Indeed, Yeshua the Messiah was YEHOVAH's manifestation in the flesh — CREATED IN THE FLESH ACCORDING TO (OR BY) THE SHEKINAH GLORY of YEHOVAH GOD. And, in the same way, each saint or true Christian should also be the “manifestation of YEHOVAH God created in the flesh,” — for we should all obey in the same way that the Messiah did.
It should be apparent to any honest person by now that in the BEGINNING WAS THE MANIFESTATION OF YEHOVAH GOD, and this MANIFESTATION was the power of YEHOVAH. The same manifestation (Shekinah Glory) was in the beginning with YEHOVAH and, according (or by) YEHOVAH's manifestation, flesh was created (human beings, starting with Adam) and then, later, the Messiah “dwelt among us” (human beings) and “we beheld his [the Messiah's] glory; the GLORY of the only begotten [at that time — more are to follow] of the Father — full of honor and truth.”
The word for word Greek translation of John 1:14, from The New International Version Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, is as follows —
“And the Word flesh became and tabernacled among us, and we beheld the glory of him, glory as of an only begotten from a father, full of grace and of truth.”
This same deception is continued by the translators in John 1:14 (KJV) which says:
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The word which has been translated “MADE” in the above verse, is word #1096 in Strong's Greek Dictionary — and means:
1096. ginomai, ghin'-om-ahee; a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be (“gen”-erate), i.e., (reflex.) to become (come into being),
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament, by Joseph H. Thayer, shows that the word means —
1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being: absol. Jn. i 15, 30 (….); Jn. viii. 58 (….); 1 Cor. xv. 37 (….); ek tivos, to be born, Ro. i. 3 (…); Gal. iv. 4 (….); Mt. xxi. 19 (…., come from); of the origin of all things, Heb. xi. 3; …., Jn. i. 3, 10.
The words that have been translated “only begotten” in this scripture are actually only one word in the Greek — #3439 in Strong's Greek Dictionary and means —
3439. ….. monogenes, mon-og-enace'; from 3441 and 1096; only-born, i.e. sole:- only (begotten, child).
As you can see, word #3439 comes from the word #3441, which means: ONLY, and word #1096, which means: TO CAUSE TO BE, COME INTO BEING, TO EXIST —
3441. …. monos, mon'-os; prob. from 3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by impl. mere:- alone, only, by themselves.
1096. …. ginomai, ghin'-om-ahee; a prol. and mid. form of prim. verb; to cause to be (“gen”-erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being).
The correct translation in the Greek confirms even more that Yeshua the Messiah was BEGOTTEN — which means he was caused to be, in other words, BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE.
Therefore, the correct translation of John 1:14 is as follows:
According to (or by) the manifestation [Shekinah Glory] flesh was created; and dwelling among us, who are flesh, and we beholding his glory, was the glory of the ONLY BEGOTTEN [at that time] of the Father, full of honor and truth.
Proof #5
5/. Galatians 4:4. Yeshua “CAME FROM” the Father, just as you and I “came from” our f
leshly fathers. Yeshua clearly had a beginning — and the apostle Paul tells us what that beginning was :But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
Again, the word translated “MADE” in this scripture is word #1096 in Strong's Greek Dictionary, and means —
1096. …. ginomai, ghin'-om-ahee; a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be (“gen”-erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being),
Thayer's Greek Lexicon again shows us word #1096 to mean —
1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being: absol., Jn. 1. 15, 30 (….); Jn. viii. 58 (….); 1 Cor. xv. 37 (….); …., to be born, Ro. i. 3 (…., come from); of the origin of all things, Heb. x1. 3; …, Jn. i. 3, 10.
As a result, the CORRECT translation of Galatians 4:4 should be:
But when the appointed time had fully come, YEHOVAH sent forth His son, coming into existence from a woman, coming into existence under the subjection of the Law.
Yeshua the Messiah came into existence from a woman — and came into existence under the Law. All the scriptures agree that Yeshua came into EXISTENCE in the FLESH — and not one second before! However, due to the corruptions of the translators, KEY verses in the Bible were changed by ADDING words or by DECEPTIVE renderings. History shows that we have Constantine the “Great” — the so-called “savior” of Christianity — to thank for helping to establish a corrupted and pagan Christianity that features the doctrines of a PRE-EXISTENT SAVIOR within a Trinity.
Proof #6
6/. John 17:5. In John 17:5 we read the following —
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
To the untrained mind it sounds as though this verse is upholding the teaching that the Messiah pre-existed before his fleshly birth. But, by comparing the Greek text to the English translation and then letting OTHER SCRIPTURES interpret this scripture for us, it becomes very obvious that this scripture was also TAMPERED WITH — TWISTED to fit prevailing pagan concepts!
The New International Version Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, shows the Greek word for word translation of this verse:
5. and now glorify me thou, Father, with thyself….with the glory which I had before the world to be with thee.
The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice —
…. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:
Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.” This glory that the Messiah is said to have, is to be BEFORE the world TO COME.
The next word underlined — translated “BEFORE” — is word #4253 in Strong's, and means: PREVIOUSLY; that is, “PREVIOUS” to the world TO COME —
4253. …. pro, pro; a prim. prep.; “fore,” i.e. in front of, prior (fig. Superior) to:- above, ago, before, or ever. In comp. it retains the same significations.
The third word underlined — translated “TO BE” — is shown by A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (by Ethelbert W. Bullinger) to mean “COME”:
elvai (pres. infinit.) to be, 33; be, 12; to have been, 1; have been, 1; that…am (art, is, are, be), 27; that…was (were), 10; had been, 1; that…may (might, should) be, 6; to be made, 1; come, 1.
Now let's read this verse in the way that it should have been translated —
And now, O Father, You glorify me beside Your own self, with the glory which I AM TO HAVE with You BEFORE the world to come.
The Messiah was only asking YEHOVAH God to glorify him beside the Father — or at the right hand of YEHOVAH's throne — with the glory that HE (YEHOVAH God) HAD IN STORE for him — BEFORE the Kingdom of God (YEHOVAH) and BEFORE the NEW WORLD that is to come.
The Messiah knew full well that he was to die and be resurrected by YEHOVAH God. He also knew that he was to be allowed to take his rightful place at the right side of YEHOVAH, and that is exactly what we find in the other scriptures that interpret this scripture. Notice Hebrews 1:1-3:
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle (the one sent) and High Priest of our profession, Yeshua the Messiah; who was faithful to Him: YEHOVAH, Who BEGOT HIM, just as Moses was faithful in all his house. Now this one (the Messiah) was counted worthy of more GLORY than Moses, since he who has built the House of YEHOVAH has more honor than the House of YEHOVAH.
This GLORY was in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy — and this glory was only to BEGIN to take place in a certain time period. In the following verses we find written:
Hebrews 1:13: But to which of the angels has He (YEHOVAH) ever said: sit at my right hand — until I make your enemies your footstool?
Psalm 110:1: YEHOVAH said to my ruler and king: sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.
1 Peter 1:11: Examining closely to what things, or what manner of season, which the spirit that was in them made clear to them, when it testified BEFOREHAND to the sufferings of Messiah, and the GLORY THAT WOULD FOLLOW.
1 Peter 5:1: The elders who are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Messiah, and ALSO A PARTAKER of the GLORY THAT WILL BE REVEALED:
We must realize that we too can look forward to this SAME glory that the Messiah will receive. Just as the apostles looked forward to this glory, so should we. Notice 2 Peter 1:3:
As His holy power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and holiness, through the full knowledge of Him Who called US to GLORY and virtue.
This was the very glory that the Messiah was talking about — glory he knew he would receive because it was written in the prophets! He knew he would RECEIVE this glory AFTER HIS RESURRECTION — he did not have this glory before his human birth! Yeshua the Messiah, as the only BEGOTTEN son of YEHOVAH God, will always have the honor of being at his Father's right hand — but he did not receive this honor (glory) until AFTER his resurrection!
The word translated “glory” is word #1391 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, and means:
2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. xxai. 26; Jn. xvii. 5
As the Bible says, the Messiah will receive his glory and then his enemies will be made his footstool. In 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 we clearly see that the last enemy that will be destroyed is DEATH — but we also can see that YEHOVAH God will always be exalted as THE SUPREME HEAD over ALL, even by Yeshua himself, who sits at YEHOVAH's right hand —
Then the end, when he (the Messiah) will have handed over the Kingdom to YEHOVAH, to our Father, when he (the Messiah) will have destroyed every other rule, and every authority and power. For he (the Messiah) MUST REIGN until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For YEHOVAH has put all things under his feet. But when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE YEHOVAH HIMSELF, Who put everything under Yeshua. When He has done this, then the son himself WILL BE SUBJECT TO HIM Who put all things under him, so that YEHOVAH may be acknowledged as THE SUPREME HEAD OVER ALL.
Clearly, when the Messiah appears on this earth again (as pictured in Revelat
ion 10) he will have all authority to destroy all other rules, authorities and powers. He will reign on earth until he has put all enemies under his feet and then, when YEHOVAH's Shekinah Glory returns to this earth (Revelation 19:11) to reside in the Temple built by the Messiah, the Messiah will hand all power over to Him and become subject to Him — acknowledging that YEHOVAH God is the SUPREME HEAD over ALL. Yeshua the Messiah will then become our High Priest, ministering to YEHOVAH his Father in the Temple of YEHOVAH God!The Messiah was NOT speaking of “past glory”, nor of a “past life” — as count-less deceived people have believed. Unfortunately, people are deceived because of the pagan lies that the translators have inserted into the scriptures! The Messiah was speaking of the glory he WAS to RECEIVE after he was resurrected; the glory of the only BEGOTTEN son of the Father, full of mercy and truth!
The glory of being the ONLY begotten son of YEHOVAH — the FIRSTBORN from the dead, is the glory the Messiah has NOW, and will forevermore have! But — and let this sink in – the Messiah DID NOT have this glory previously, because he simply DID NOT EXIST before he was begotten by YEHOVAH God and born as a flesh and blood human being! Read 1 Peter 1:19-20:
But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was MANIFEST in these last times for you; who through him we do believe in YEHOVAH, who raised him up from the dead, and GAVE HIM GLORY; that your faith and hope might be in YEHOVAH.
Proof #7
7/. I Timothy 3:16. Another verse which is used by those who have been deceived by the pagan ideas of the translators is found in I Timothy 3:16 in the King James Version. However, this “translation” is simply NOT FOUND in most of the other modern versions! In the King James Version this reads —
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Concordant Version of the Sacred Scriptures — written in the ancient Greek form — reveals that the word “WHO” — NOT the word “God” — was originally in the text! Furthermore, The Emphatic Diaglott shows us that the word “God” was NOT in the Alexandrian Manuscript — nor was it in almost all of the other ancient manuscripts. Notice —
Nearly all the ancient MSS., and all the versions have “He who,” instead of “God,” in this passage.
Taking this theme further, the book Forgery in Christianity (by Wheless) informs us —
In the King James or “Authorized” Version we read: “Great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,” etc. (1 Tim. iii, 16.) In the “Revised Version” this “God Manifest” forged inter-polation is shamed out of the text, which there honestly reads: “He who was manifested in the flesh,” etc. Thus the great “mystery of godliness,” premised in the text, is no longer a mystery; and the fraudulent insertion into the text by some over-zealous Christian forger, seeking to bolster up an “apostolic” pedigree for the later “tradition” of the divinity of the Christ, is confessed.
The Revised Standard Version of the Bible has corrected this verse, saying —
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
The CORRECT translation of this verse should read as follows —
And without controversy, great is the secret of holiness: HE WHO WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, was justified in spirit, was seen by angels, was preached to the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, was received up into HIS GLORY.
As you can see for yourself there has been blatant forgery and deception carried out by the translators of YEHOVAH's Word — deception perpetrated in order to promulgate the LIE of a “pre-existent” savior who was God manifested in the flesh! Don't fall for it!
Proof #8
8/. Hebrew 1:8-9. Another scripture that has deceived many in the Churches of God, who quite often use these verses to “prove” that the Messiah was a pre-existing being, is that of Hebrews 1:8-9. Some use these verses to claim the Messiah was an angel, while others use it to claim Yeshua was God. Notice what the King James Version says —
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The way these verses have been translated in the King James Version would have those with a shallow knowledge of the Bible believe that the Messiah is here called “God”! However, a little research into the Bible will reveal that Hebrews 1:8-9 is a DIRECT QUOTE from Psalm 45:6-7 in the Old Testament.
Notice how it is rendered in The Holy Name Bible:
Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; whereby the people fall under Thee. Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim, Thy Elohim, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.
The Lexicon In Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner, shows that the word “Elohim” was used to REPLACE the Name of YEHOVAH (p. 51). This is corroborated in A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver and Briggs, which says that Elohim was inserted “often by editorial change for an original YHVH” p. 44). The Name of “YEHOVAH” was replaced by the PAGAN title “Elohim” in Psalm 45:6-7.
Unfortunately, this is not the only translation problem encountered in these verses. Notice the author's comments in The Anchor Bible, Psalms I —
The eternal and everlasting God has enthroned you! The scepter of your kingdom must be a scepter of equity. You must love justice and hate iniquity, because God, your God, has anointed you.
has enthroned you. Vocalizing kisse' ka, a denominative piel from kisse', “throne.” The only evidence for this proposal is its manifest good sense, its concordance with the Ugaritic-Hebrew proclivity for coining such verbs (Biblica 44 [1963], 204f.) and, negatively, the unsatisfactory nature of the numberless solutions which have been proffered on behalf of this crux interpretum.
In other words, kisse' ka lohim is stylistically parallel to vs. 3, berak ka lohim, “God has blessed you,” and stylistically and semantically parallel to vs. 8, m sah ka lohim, “God has anointed you.” Some commentators (as early as 1790) have felt that a verb is needed here and have accordingly supplied hekin or something similar; cf. King, A study of Psalm 45 (44), p. 79.
There have been many different solutions offered in solving the problem of correctly interpreting this verse. But see how this verse is translated from the Hebrew in The Holy Bible, Second Part, Division 2 —
Thy throne, GIVEN OF GOD, endureth for ever and ever: the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
As we just saw, the Name of “YEHOVAH” was replaced with the word “Elohim.” Therefore, by putting the name of “YEHOVAH” BACK into this verse — along with the true translation of the Hebrew text — we get the TRUE TRANSLATION of Psalm 45:6-7. Notice!
Your throne, given of YEHOVAH, is for ever and ever; the scepter; ruling staff, of your kingdom is a scepter; ruling rod, of righteousness. You, too, have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore YEHOVAH your FATHER has anointed you with the oil of gladness over your fellow men.
And this is EXACTLY how Hebrews 1:8-9 should ha
ve been translated – because it is a DIRECT quotation! We know that the author of the Book of Hebrews (Paul) was not saying anything that was not already in the Book of Psalms, because he was quoting from it. Psalm 45:6-7 is a prophecy that will take place when the Messiah is crowned king under his Father YEHOVAH. The Messiah did NOT “have” this throne when the Psalms were written — because he did not yet exist!And the Messiah does not “have” this throne even at THIS TIME because all things have not YET been out under him, referring to the world to come — as pointed out in Hebrews 2:5-8:
For it is NOT to the angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking; for one brings testimony in a certain place, saying: What is man, that You are mindful of him, or the son of man, that You visit him? You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor, and did set him over the works of Your hands. You have put all things in subjection under his feet. In putting everything in subjection under him, YEHOVAH left nothing that is not subject to him — but at this time we do NOT YET see all things put under him.
Notice the last part of verse 8 closely: These things are NOT under the Messiah yet, but they will be one day soon — because this was in YEHOVAH's plan from the very beginning! Therefore, Psalm 45:6-7 and Hebrews 1:8-9 are the SAME prophecy which will take place in the near future, concerning the only begotten son of YEHOVAH God — but they do NOT teach of any pre-existent god-savior!
Proof #9
9/. Daniel 3:25. Those who try to deceive you will more than likely use Daniel 3:25 to “prove” that the son of God was pre-existent. Don't fall for it! This scrip-ture, in the King James Version, reads as follows —
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
The first thing you should realize is the fact that there are many sources out there that know this verse has been mistranslated — Clarke's Commentary is one of them —
Verse 25. [Is like the Son of God.] A most improper translation. What notion could this idolatrous king have of the Lord Jesus Christ? for so the place [verse] understood by thousands.
…. bar elahin signifies a son of the gods, that is, a Divine person or angel; and so the king calls him in verse 28: “God hath sent his ANGEL, and delivered his servants.” And though even from this some still contend that it was the Angel of the covenant, yet the Babylonish king knew just as much of the one as he did of the other. No other ministration was necessary; a single angel from heaven was quite sufficient to answer this purpose, as that which stopped the mouths of the lions when Daniel was cast into their den.
It is quite amazing that there are people who say this fourth person was the Messiah. They, of course, are trying to deceive you into thinking that the Messiah was alive at the time. But even a cursory examination of this verse indicates that there is absolutely NOTHING here that names the Messiah or says that he pre-existed!
Now, let us notice WHAT was said — and by WHOM. The statement made in Daniel 3:25 was spoken by Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon — just as Daniel 3:24 clearly states. Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan who had just made an image of himself and had commanded all in his kingdom to worship it. He then cast Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego into the furnace because they refused to worship this image — they would worship YEHOVAH God only.
It was this same Nebuchadnezzar who made this statement in Daniel 3:25: “…the fourth looks like the son of the gods.” Are we to suppose, then, that this pagan king who was trying to kill the servants of YEHOVAH, said: “…the fourth looks like Yeshua, the Son of YEHOVAH”? This is EXACTLY what the deceivers would like you to believe!
YEHOVAH God has many angels, and he does send them to help us at times — like the ones YEHOVAH sent to help Lot and Abraham. The Bible also shows that many times these angels have the appearance of HUMAN BEINGS — and this is exactly how King Nebuchadnezzar described the fourth man in Daniel 3:25. He did NOT say: “…I see Yeshua…”. Neither did he say: “…I see the Son of YEHOVAH God…”.
Do not allow anyone to deceive you about this!!
Proof #10
10/. Proverbs 30:4. This verse — in the King James Version — reads:
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Once again, this particular scripture is TWISTED by the false ministers in the world who claim that it teaches that the Messiah was already in existence at that time. But this verse in NO WAY refers to the Messiah — and it is hard to believe that any serious student of the Bible could use this verse to justify such an under-standing. But, sadly, they do. Correctly translated, this verse reads:
Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound up the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is HIS NAME? What is THE NAME of His sons? Tell me if you know!
Here is a copy of Proverbs 30:4 from the Greek Septuagint Version, from which this verse was translated —
Who hath ascended up to heaven and come down? Who hath collected the winds in his bosom? Who hath infolded the water in a mantle? Who hath a dominion over all the ends of the earth? What is his name? or what is the name of his sons?
The Anchor Bible, Proverbs, on page 176, corroborates this translation and plainly says that the sons who are being spoken of refer to the HEAVENLY HOST — in other words, the ANGELS! Notice what it says —
4. Who has ascended the sky. Cf. Job xxxviii 3-38; Isa xl 12ff.; Unless his name is known, neither god nor man can be known as real' cf. Gen xxxii 29; Exod iii 13; Isa lii 6. his sons'. The divine beings of the heavenly host; cf. Ps lxxxii 6; Job xxxviii 7. Surely you know. Cf. Job xxxviii 5.
This was NOT speaking of the Messiah going back and forth from heaven to earth, this was speaking of YEHOVAH God's MESSENGERS — the angels! The Messiah was not an angel, as the Bible clearly states –
Hebrews 1:13 — But to which of the angels has He ever said: Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool?
Hebrews 2:5 — For it is not to the angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
Hebrews 2:16 — For truly, He does not take hold of angels, but He takes hold of the seed of Abraham.
There are absolutely NO direct statements to the effect that any beings existed beside YEHOVAH God before He created the angels. But, there are MANY direct scriptures which say emphatically that YEHOVAH God was ALONE at creation, and that there was NONE BESIDE HIM!
Isaiah 43:11 (King James Version) — I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6, 8 (King James Version) — Thus saith the King of Israyl, and his redeemer [YEHOVAH] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside ME there is NO GOD. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a GOD beside ME? yea, there is NO GOD; I know not any.
Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version) — I am [YEHOVAH], and there is NONE ELSE, there is NO GOD beside ME: I girded thee, though thou has not known ME.
Proof #11
11/. Isaiah 9:6. It is generally known in scholarly circles that the King James Version of the Bible contains literally THOUSAN
DS of mistakes and deliberate fraud. The trouble is, even though the scholars admit this fact no one wants to buck the system and correct these mistakes! No one, it seems, wants to suffer the persecution this entails. The King James translation of Isaiah 9:6 is just one of these cases of deliberate fraud foisted off onto deceived people. This translation infers that the SON (Yeshua the Messiah) was the “mighty God”; that he was the “everlasting Father” — in other words, that he was PRE-EXISTENT! Let us set the record straight and present the TRUTH about that lie. Isaiah 9:6 in the King James Version has KEY words that are mistranslated —For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the govern-ment shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The first word underlined — which has been translated “Wonderful” — is word #6382, from word #6381 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary —
6382. …. pele', peh'-leh; from 6381; a miracle:- marvellous thing, wonder (-ful, -fully).
In its original form this word was not the adjective “Wonderful” in Isaiah 9:6, but the NOUN “wonder” — and it is also part of the phrase pele-yaotz, as the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament shows. The word “Counsellor” — although relatively accurately translated — is translated from the Hebrew word “yaotz,” word #3289 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary; but the word “yaotz” is clearly shown from the previous reference to be part of a PHRASE — not words with separate meanings! If you check it out for yourself you will see that this phrase actually means: “WONDER of a Counselor”! See how deceptive the translators have been? The “WONDER” of the Counselor is the Ideal Ruler foretold to come — which The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testa-ment (p. 419) clearly and emphatically shows.
Now, WHO is this “Counselor,” of Whom this child who is to be BORN is to be a “WONDER” or an Ideal Ruler? In the next words mistranslated in the King James Version we find the answer to this question.
The words “MIGHTY” and “GOD” in the King James Version — as well as other mistranslated versions — were translated from the Hebrew words “GABUR” AND “EL,” words #1386 and #410 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary. According to the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 149), the word “GA-BUR” is a word that means “mighty.”
The Soncino Talmud, The Babylonian Talmud, Seder Nezikin, Sanhedrin, 94a, translated by Dr. I. Epstein, shows the word “EL” to mean “judge” in this particular place!
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the govern-ment shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, [ii] Counsellor, [iii] Mighty, [iv] Judge.*
* For this meaning of el, cf. Ex. XXI, 6; XXII, 8.
Yes, judgment has been given into the hands of Yeshua the Messiah — just as Acts 10:38-42 emphatically tells us —
How God [YEHOVAH] anointed Jesus [Yeshua] of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God [YEHOVAH] was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God [YEHOVAH] raised up on the third day, and showed him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God [YEHOVAH], even to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God [YEHOVAH] to be JUDGE of the living and the dead.
The Messiah will be the JUDGE appointed by YEHOVAH God, whose JUDGMENT — according to YEHOVAH's judgments — will bring peace to this earth. And because Yeshua the Messiah will command that each and every word YEHOVAH God has spoken is to be obeyed — completely – the Messiah will BE “The Prince of Peace.”
The Hebrew words “el” and “gabur” — when properly translated — would be writ-ten in this fashion: “JUDGE OF THE MIGHTY.” Therefore, Isaiah 9:6 is translated word for word as:
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and is called His Name, Wonder of the Counselor, the Judge of the Mighty Father Everlasting, Prince of Peace.
As a result, Isaiah 9:6, when properly translated into modern English, will read as follows:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulders. And his name will be called the WONDER of the Counselor, the JUDGE of the Mighty Everlasting Father — the PRINCE of peace.
As pointed out, the COUNSELOR is “The Mighty, Everlasting Father – YEHOVAH God Himself! As the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 810) points out, Isaiah 9:6 is showing that this “WONDER” (Messiah the Judge) of the “COUNSELOR” (YEHOVAH the Father) — Yeshua the Messiah who is the Ideal Ruler — was YET TO COME when this prophecy was spoken! The Messiah DID NOT exist in the time of Isaiah the prophet, but he was prophesied to come later.
And — and please take careful note of this – the Messiah WAS NOT “The Mighty God, the Father” — as the fraudulent translators of the King James Version of the Bible, as well as the rest of the deceived world, would like for YOU to believe! When this scripture is properly translated it agrees totally with all the other inspired scriptures of YEHOVAH God. It was not the inspired prophets of YEHOVAH who were trying to teach of a “pre-existent god-savior.” It was the PAGAN TRANSLATORS — adding to or deleting from the original inspired word of YEHOVAH God, who caused this grave error to be taught to this whole deceived “Christian” world as “doctrine.”
Proof #12
12/. Ephesians 3:9. Here is a scripture in the King James version that fools the unlearned into believing that it was the Messiah who was “the Creator.” In fact, many of the Churches of God teach that “in the beginning there were TWO GODS,” and that “one god decided to become the father god and the other decided he would be god the son.” This is totally ridiculous! Let us try and understand WHY some have become CONFUSED — and also WHAT the real meaning of this verse is.
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
By just reading this verse it is easy to think that YEHOVAH the Father gave orders to create all things, and that these orders were carried out by Yeshua the Messiah. Once again, this world has been DECEIVED into believing this LIE because the LAST THREE WORDS in the King James Version were ADDED to this scripture by the translators! These last three words were NOT in the original manuscripts! The Emphatic Diaglott, as well as The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament clearly show that these words were added.
By adding these last three words to the King James Version, the whole meaning of Ephesians 3:9 has been ALTERED! Clarke's Commentary (p. 445) shows these words to be missing in many manuscripts! Notice —
But the words …., by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. No inferiority of Christ can be argued from a clause of whose spuriousness there is the strongest evidence.
This verse, from The Ryrie Study Bible, New American Standard Version, reads —
and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all
things;The Revised Standard Version shows these words are NOT in this translation:
and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things;
Correctly translated, therefore, this verse should read —
And to make all men plainly see how this secret is administered; which has been hidden in YEHOVAH from the beginning of the ages, Who created all things.
Merely by leaving out the fraudulent words ADDED by uninspired men, we see that the apostle Paul was saying that great secret was hidden in YEHOVAH God Who created all things — NOT in the Messiah who came into existence later!
That the Messiah created everything was totally unknown to the Apostolic Fathers. One of the earliest non-Biblical statements of Christian faith is found in a book of 16 short chapters known as The Didache, or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. The author of this book is unknown, but historians have dated it to before or about the year 100 A.D. The Didache deals with concepts people would need to know to become Christians. In chapter 7, it prescribes baptism “in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit,” the same words the Messiah used in Matthew 28:19. But it says absolutely nothing about the three being equal in eternity, power, position and wisdom, or that the Messiah created everything at his Father's command.
In its 10th chapter, The Didache includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer:
We thank you, Holy Father, for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts; and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have made known to us through JESUS YOUR SERVANT. Glory to you forever! YOU, Almighty Master, CREATED EVERYTHING for your Name's sake…And to us you have graciously given spiritual food and drink, and life eternal through Jesus your servant (The Apostolic Fathers, Vol. 3, pp. 166-7).
Clearly, there is no sign of the Messiah having created everything is this pas-sage! In fact, it emphatically states that YEHOVAH God created everything!
In The Influence of Greek Ideas on Christianity, Edwin Hatch quotes the fore-going passage and then says —
In the original sphere of Christianity there does not appear to have been any great advance upon these simple conceptions. The doctrine upon which stress was laid was, that God [YEHOVAH] is, that He is one, that He is almighty and everlasting, that HE MADE THE WORLD, that His mercy is over all His works. There was no taste for metaphysical discussion (p. 252).
It should be CLEAR to any honest-minded person that deliberate deception, by deceived men, has taken place in the King James Version of the Bible — deceitful men whose sole ambition was to deceive you and lead you astray! And because these deceitful men have led thousands away from the every Word of YEHOVAH God, they have successfully led them away from the TRUE SAVIOR sent by YEHOVAH!
The Messiah warned us of false messiahs and religious impostors, whose purpose was to deceive and be deceived. However, it is difficult to grasp the extremes to which these deceivers went to in order to bring forth a “pre-existent god-savior” who “did it all for you,” so all you have to do now is simply “believe.” The REAL PERSON behind these deceptions is, of course, Satan the Devil, whose sole purpose is to destroy mankind. The religious impostors who altered the Holy Scriptures of YEHOVAH God and those who believe these same lies, are all headed for the same destruction. In Matthew 15:14 we read —
Let them alone. They are BLIND LEADERS of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, BOTH will fall into the ditch.
It is high time for US to remove the blinders and shake off the DECEPTIONS of this generation and come to the realization of the TRUTH of YEHOVAH! Or, as the apostle Peter said in Acts 2:40 — “SAVE YOURSELF FROM THIS PERVERSE GENERATION!”
Why Yeshua Could NOT Have Pre-Existed
One could easily say, “Sure, he overcame, he was a God, but we are only human beings.” Or one could say, “Sure, he overcame, he was an angel.” But the fact is, the Messiah was neither “god” nor “angel” — he was a FLESHLY HUMAN BEING who overcame! Hebrews 2:17 plainly tells us the following —
For this reason he had to be MADE LIKE his brothers in EVERY WAY, in order that he might BECOME a merciful and faithful High Priest in service to YEHOVAH, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
The Messiah suffered ALL the temptations which all other human beings suffer, as Hebrews 2:18 most emphatically records —
For in that he himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
The FACT of the matter is, the Messiah HAD to be human, in order to PROVE that YEHOVAH's created mankind CAN OVERCOME! Yeshua the Messiah HAD to PROVE that, yes, it is possible — with the help of YEHOVAH's holy spirit — to RESIST SATAN!
Yeshua was BORN flesh and blood. It was absolutely necessary for our Messiah, our High Priest, and our Savior chosen by YEHOVAH God, to be born flesh and blood — in order that he could, in his OWN HUMAN SELF, PROVE that totally righteous beings COULD be developed from flesh and blood beings. And, in PROVING that flesh and blood COULD OVERCOME, he also proved that YEHOVAH God's plan from the beginning — the building of the perfect God (YEHOVAH) family from flesh and blood mankind does work!
Since the Messiah himself, being flesh and blood, OVERCAME, even though he suffered and was tempted, we too, being flesh and blood, can OVERCOME, even though we suffer and are tempted.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,18:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,10:41) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,17:38) Yahshua's name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” because he is the spokesman of His and our Father
And do you agree that “the Word” from John 1 is also actually “the Word of God”? Or do you believe John 1 refers to someone else's word?
Mike,I am no longer going to repeat myself over and over again to you. From here on I will ignore both you and T8!
I keep hearing this word “repeat” from you. Yet you haven't answered even 10% of the questions I've asked you since you've been here.
But that's okay Frank. I know that John the Baptist says the same exact words about Jesus in verse 30 as he says about the Word in verse 15. And in both verses, his words begin with “This is he of whom I said………”
Now either John said the same exact words about TWO different things/people, or the Word from verse 14 IS Jesus from verse 29.
There are no other options, Frank. I've tried to show you and Gene the truth of the scriptural words, but you would not have it.
I do hope that t8 doesn't let you use his site just for posting the writings of non-preexisters that we can't even question. I hope he will give you the choice of either putting up or shutting up.
I don't own this site, but I've made my case known many of times before: If you aren't willing to DEFEND what you post, then don't even bother posting anything.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,11:27) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,18:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,10:41) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 30 2011,17:38) Yahshua's name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” because he is the spokesman of His and our Father
And do you agree that “the Word” from John 1 is also actually “the Word of God”? Or do you believe John 1 refers to someone else's word?
Mike,I am no longer going to repeat myself over and over again to you. From here on I will ignore both you and T8!
I keep hearing this word “repeat” from you. Yet you haven't answered even 10% of the questions I've asked you since you've been here.But that's okay Frank. I know that John the Baptist says the same exact words about Jesus in verse 30 as he says about the Word in verse 15. And in both verses, his words begin with “This is he of whom I said………”
Now either John said the same exact words about TWO different things/people, or the Word from verse 14 IS Jesus from verse 29.
There are no other options, Frank. I've tried to show you and Gene the truth of the scriptural words, but you would not have it.
I do hope that t8 doesn't let you use his site just for posting the writings of non-preexisters that we can't even question. I hope he will give you the choice of either putting up or shutting up.
I don't own this site, but I've made my case known many of times before: If you aren't willing to DEFEND what you post, then don't even bother posting anything.
LIAR!Did Our Savior Pre-exist?
For thousands of years, from the days of ancient Babylon, men have believed in a triune god. This concept of a triad of deities is a universally recognized doctrine. Whether speaking of Hindooism, Taoism, Buddhism or Christianity, all believe in a trinity. The Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity states that all three “persons” of the “Godhead” are co-eternal. In order for Christianity to continue to support such a belief they had to show that the Messiah, who in their mind is the second person of the trinity (“God the Son”), always existed. Since there could never be a time when one of the three persons (“God the Father”, “God the Son”, “God the Holy Spirit”) existed without the other two, the doctrine of the Savior's pre-existence came about.
Almighty Yahweh has been calling many people out of Babylon, out of false Babylonian teachings, into the true faith. Many of His people have started out the door, however their foot seems to be caught on the pre-existence doctrine. The purpose of this study is to open the door of truth wider by revealing the correct understanding and translation of those scriptures used to support the pre-existence.
Yahweh Sent His Son
The New Testament uses several phrases that would suggest that our Savior existed as a being in heaven prior to his earthly birth. Among those phrases are; “sent His Son,” “sent into the world,” “not of this world,” “came into the world,” and “came down from heaven.” Let's examine “sent His Son” and “sent into the world” first, since both phrases appear in 1 Jn.4:9,10; “In this was manifested the love of Yahweh toward us, because that Yahweh sent his only begotten Son into the world , that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved Yahweh, but that he loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” A superficial reading would lead one to believe that Yahshua was at Yahweh's side somewhere out of this world and eventually was commanded by Yahweh to come to our planet which he obediently did.
In Ps.78:45 it says Yahweh sent flies upon the Egyptians prior to the exodus of Israel. Are we to believe that these flies were living in heaven prior to their arrival in Egypt? Jn.1:6 tells us that John the Baptist was also “sent from Yahweh.” Surely none believe that John pre-existed at Yahweh's side. Notice this verse does not say “sent by Yahweh,” but “from Yahweh.” A word study of how “sent” was used in Scripture will reveal how Yahweh sent many earthly messengers and prophets to do His will. None of them, however, pre-existed in heaven.
Jn.17:18 helps us to understand the phrase “sent into the world.” It reads, “As thou hast sent me into the world , even so have I also sent them into the world. ” Obviously, the disciples were not living outside of this world prior to Yahshua sending them into the world. Neither should we believe that Yahshua existed in some other world before being sent by Yahweh into this world.
“Came into the world” is used in 1 Tim.1:15; “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Messiah Yahshua came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” The same phrase is used of all men when they are born. Jn.1:9 reads, “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ” And again in 1 Tim.6:7; “For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.” So when Heb. 1:6 says, “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of [Yahweh] worship him,” it is talking about the Messiah's earthly birth.
In Jn.8:23, Yahshua said, “Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” This certainly seems to indicate an existence in another world before coming to this world. This verse is to be understood the same way we are to understand Jn.15:19; “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world , but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” Yahshua chose his disciples out of the world, therefore, they were not of this world. Yahshua said similar words in Jn.17:14; “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world , even as I am not of the world.” Yahshua is not of this world because Yahweh chose Him out of the world.
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from [Yahweh]” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar.
Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually “inside” Yahweh? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed “inside” of Yahweh in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Mic 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). While it is difficult to perceive of the Almighty having an “inside,” that is what the text is saying. Yet, this, too, is figurative and equates with the mind of Yahweh.
There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am not suggesting the Almighty has “loins.” Nor am I suggesting Yahshua was conceived in any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through procreation/copulation). Yahweh is Spirit. His Holy Spirit “came upon” Miriam and miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male child in her womb.
Lu 1:35 says, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from [Yahweh] . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from [Yahweh].” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.
A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh (in the sense of future lineage) until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then created in Miriam's egg a 100% man. The belief that Y
ahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without her egg being involved is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.John's Predecessor?
Jn.1:15 certainly suggests a pre-existence as it appears in the KJV; “John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.” First, the idea of preference is not found in the Greek. The word translated “preferred” is the Greek “ginomai”. Of the 678 times it was used in the New Testament, it was translated “preferred” three times, once here and in verses 27 & 30 where the same verse is repeated. The word should have been translated “come to be”; “He that cometh after me has come to be before me.” As for the latter part of the verse, the word “before” is from the Greek “protos”. Of the 105 times this word was used, it was never translated “before”. The most common rendering is “first,” however, based on the context, it should be translated as the Emphatic Diaglott has it, “for he is my Superior.” “Protos” was also translated “chief” nine times in the New Testament.
Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.
Old Glory
Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Was this glory as the second person of the “Trinity” or is there something here that many people miss?
Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).
It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being.
The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, “These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' ” Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.
Seeing The Father
Jn.6:46 states Yahshua saw his Father Yahweh. He said, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of Yahweh, he hath seen the Father .” Does this mean Yahshua physically saw Yahweh with his eyes or can it be understood a different way? Yahshua spoke the following words to two disciples, Thomas and Philip, in Jn.14:7-9; “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him . Philip saith unto him, Master, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Yahshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
The disciples saw Father Yahweh because they saw Yahshua who is one with Yahweh (not a oneness of being, but a oneness of character, will, Spirit). They had only to look upon Yahshua and see his character to have it said of them, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Yahshua had only to look at himself, his character, his determination to carry out Yahweh's will, etc., to see his Father in himself. The disciples did not have to pre-exist in order to see the Father and neither did Yahshua.
The Greek word translated “seen” in Jn.6:46 is #3708 in Strong's Concordance, meaning “to discern clearly (physically or mentally ).” In both of these cases, it was not a physical sighting of the Father, but a mental perception of His character that they were seeing.
Several names and titles have been used in reference to the being that spoke to men in the Old Testament. Among them are Spokesman, Dabar, and Metatron. We are led to believe that they are all references to the pre-existent Son of Yahweh. This, of course, is only an assumption since the Scriptures only identify that being as “the Angel of Yahweh.” If the Angel of Yahweh was Yahshua, then Yahshua pre-existed as an angel. This would contradict Heb. 1:1,2,5,7,8,13. Heb.1:1,2 implies that the Son did not speak “in times past unto the fathers.” The remaining verses imply that none of the angels were exalted as Yahshua was. Verses 7 & 8 make a clear distinction between Yahshua and angels; the angels were made ministering spirits, but the Son was made King of Yahweh's Kingdom. It
is interesting to note all the different ideas as to who Yahshua pre-existed as in times past. Pre-existence proponents have a hard time deciding between the Angel of Yahweh, the Captain of the Host, a second Yahweh, Michael, Melchizidek, and even the Heavenly Father Himself!What about Daniel's account of the sighting of “the Son of God” in Dan.3:25 (KJV)? It reads, “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” The Revised Version rightfully translates the Hebrew “a son of the Gods.” The article “the” is not in the Hebrew. This was an angel sent by Yahweh as revealed in verse 28. What knowledge would this pagan king have of the “form” of Yahweh's Son even if he did pre-exist? In his mind it could only be the form of any divine being.
The Wisdom of Yahweh
Prov.8:22-36 have been used quite often to prove the pre-existence. One need only read verses 1-12 to realize that a pre-existent Son is not speaking in verses 22-36. The Scriptures declare the speaker to be wisdom. The glorious wisdom Yahweh possessed before He created all things is personified in these verses. Notice, also, that wisdom is personified as a female, not a male. Pr.8:1 reads, “Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?” And Pr.9:1 says, “Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars.” If Yahshua pre-existed as the epitomy of wisdom, why does Rev.5:12 say he is worthy to receive wisdom? Surely an all-wise pre-existent being has no need of further wisdom.
1 Cor.1:30 says, “But of him are ye in Messiah Yahshua, who of [Yahweh] is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:” This verse declares that Yahshua was “made unto us wisdom.” It does not say he existed as wisdom in the past. Ps.104:24 says, “O Yahweh, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.” Yahweh used His great wisdom in the creation of all things. It was like a workman at His side.
Yahweh's Firstborn
Two scriptures are often used to show that Yahshua was the very first act of creation by Yahweh. Everything else is said to have been created by, or with the help of, Yahshua. Those scriptures are Col.1:15 and Rev.3:14. Let's look at Col.1:15 first. “Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of every creature :” What does the latter part of this verse mean? Does “every creature” include the angels that rejoiced at creation?
To understand this verse, you must first understand that Yahweh is in the process of creating a new world; “the world to come” as Heb.2:5 puts it. Is.65:17,18 speaks of “new heavens and a new earth.” Those that will rule in the new earth are those that will be resurrected or “born from above” (Jn.3:7). Ps.102:18-20 puts it very clearly; “This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise Yahweh. For He hath looked down from the height of His sanctuary; from heaven did Yahweh behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;” These people will be created , or born, at the resurrection.
To clarify even further, we read the following in Ps.104:29,30; “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created : and thou renewest the face of the earth.” Yahweh will resurrect the dead through the power of His Holy Spirit. It is said of those that are resurrected that they are “created .”
The first person to be created, or born again from above, was Yahshua. Therefore, he is called the “firstborn.” Since there are many that will be born again at the resurrection, he is the “firstborn of every creature (that will be resurrected).” Col. 1:18 elaborates further by telling us what Yahshua is the firstborn of; the dead. This takes place at the resurrection. It is also said of Yahshua that he is “the beginning” (Col.1:18). This is the same term used in Rev.3:14 which reads, “And unto the angel of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of [Yahweh]; ” Does this beginning refer to a time before the angels were created or does it refer to the new creation? Some would argue that the word “new” is not in the text. Yahweh has shown us, however, that He does not always use the word “new” in describing this new creation. Notice Is.65:17,18; “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.” This is speaking of New Jerusalem, yet the word “New” is not used by Yahweh.
Continuing in Colossians to verse 17 we read, “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” As a result of this translation, we are led to believe that Yahshua existed prior to anything else, including the angels. The same Greek phrase, “before all things,” is also found in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8. Both of those texts read “above all things.” That is because the Greek word “pro,” translated “before,” also carries the meaning of superiority or pre-eminence. Since Col.1:15-18 proclaims the pre-eminence of Yahshua in all things (vs.18), translating verse 17 as “above all things” would fit the context.
It is said that the phrase “according to the flesh,” in Rom.1:3, proves Yahshua's pre-existence. It reads, “Concerning his Son Yahshua Messiah our Master, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;” It is implied from this that Yahshua existed as a spirit being before he was born according to the flesh, for why else would Paul say this? The simple reason is because Yahshua did not have an earthly father. Therefore, whether he was true flesh and blood and David's seed would come into question. Paul adds “according to the flesh” for the same reason he adds “was made of the seed of David.” Even though Yahshua did not have a flesh and blood father, he is still flesh through Miriam. He is not a spirit being or an angel that appeared in the flesh as did those who appeared to Abraham in Gen.18:2; 19:1.
Yahweh's Son
The Trinity doctrine states the Son is coeternal with the Father. Others believe the Son was the first being Yahweh created. Either view believes the “Son” pre-existed prior to his earthly birth. If that is true, how are we to understand the following words Yahweh commanded Nathan to give to David?
“When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son.” (2 Sam. 7:12-14)
Although these words primarily applied to Solomon (1 Chr.28:6), ultimately the reference is to Yahshua the Messiah, the “Son of David” (Lu.1:32,33; Heb.1:5). Heb.1:5 reads, ” For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”
Since the New Testament clearly links the words, “I will be his father, and he shall be My son” to Yahshua, note well the future tense used. If Yahshua pre-existed as Yahweh's coeternal Son or as Yahweh's first act of creation, the words “I am his Father,” and “he is my son,” should have been used. Therefore, this prophetic reference to Yahshua clearly teaches that he became Yahweh's Son at a specific time in history. He did not always exist as Yahweh's Son as the Trinity doctrine teaches. Nor could he have existed as the first act of creation since 2 Sam.7:14 places his becoming the Son at a time that was in David's future.
The Root of David
Rev 5:5 reads, “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe
of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.” A brother recently asked me what “the root of David” meant. He believed Yahshua (the root) preceded David thereby confirming his preexistence. Rev 22:16 says something similar; “I Yahshua have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”Isa 11:10 uses the concept of a root as follows “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” This is a messianic prophecy in which Yahshua is the “root of Jesse,” Jesse being David's father.
To understand how Yahshua can be the root of both these men and yet not preexist, we need only to look at nature. What comes first, the seed or the root? Obviously the seed. Jesse is the seed out of which comes forth a root (or offspring). In this case it is David. David, then, is the seed out of which comes forth another root or offspring. In this case it is Messiah Yahshua.
When John calls Yahshua the “root and the offspring of David”, both terms mean the same thing, a root is an offspring. That is why Messiah is called “the Son of David” in such verses as Mt.1:1and 22:42. Mt 1:20 tells us that Joseph is also a “son of David”. Joseph is also a root of David and an offspring of David. The root always follows the seed in time and the seed always precedes the root. David preceded Messiah.
The Form of Elohim
This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” (KJV)
To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as “the Word.” Yahshua did not officially become “the Anointed” or “the Messiah” until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).
As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” It does not say he “was Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”
Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.
In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father Yahweh. As a reward for his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.
This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For additional information, please see the study entitled “Yahshua the Messiah is not Almighty Yahweh.” That study will explain many other verses used to support the pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10; Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1 Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as elohim and echad.
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