- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Nick….why another dum question, Just explain Dut 18:18-19 in clear and simple words, if you can and lets not go no where until we get this right first. no more dodgeing around the subject, this is what trinitarians do to avoid the simple truth.
all of these statements the light the life ,ect…jesus was speaking of the father,yet jesus is the word.
Micheals……Being the word and speaking the word are two different things. Read Dut18:18-19
the idea tha Jesus is himself the word takes away from the fact that it was God in Him speaking through Him. Just like He did the Prophets, and remember Jesus said the words he was speaking were not his. The Father was cohabbiting with Jesus in His Body and was speaking through Him and Thomas came to see that, and responded by saying “MY LORD AND MY GOD, he know The Father was in Jesus and speaking and performing mericals through Him. Jesus never took credit for what he was saying or the mericles either. He said He could do nothing of himself. and that the Father who was in him was doing the works. and its impossible for a word of any kind to be flesh. it can be in flesh but never be flesh.
Hi GENE,
“Being the word and speaking the word are two different things.”
Being the truth and speaking the Truth?
Being the light and shining the Light?
Being the Way and leading the Way?Is there some sort of difference I cannot fathom?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2007,17:49) Hi GENE,
“Being the word and speaking the word are two different things.”
Being the truth and speaking the Truth?
Being the light and shining the Light?
Being the Way and leading the Way?Is there some sort of difference I cannot fathom?
Nick…..I sorry you can't see being the word and speaking the word are to different things, mabe if you would have looked closely at Dut 18:18-19 you might have figured it out.
you say being the truth and speaking the truth.
being the light and shining the light.
being the way and leading the way.you can't (fathom) > Gess what there's the problem you just can't see the difference.
so let me try to go through them one at a time for you.
If I told you to go and tell your neighbor something for me and you did, would that make you the words I told you to speak, obvisouly it would not, because first of all they werent your words and secondly you arn't me. you are a messenger and not the message. the same applies with Jesus He spoke GOD”S words to us and that did not make Him GOD or the words he spoke either. Thats why Jesus said the words I speak are not mine. I am sorry you cant get it. You are praising the messenger and atribute the message to him, this is not what he did,Jesus know if he atribute the message to himself he would be stealing from God by saying they were his owne words he was speaking. While God can and does speak through him that still does not make Him God or the word He speaks.
Being the truth and speaking the Truth, the Holy Spirit is truth and if we speak the truth the Spirit of truth is in us,
but to say we are it is robbing God of Glory, Jesus never did
that he always gave God The Father the glory for every thing
he did.
being the light and shining the light. are obiviously not the same thing. if you had a flashlight in your hand and shined it
on something would that make you the light then. God was the light in
Jesus, not Jesus himself.
We are to follow God as Jesus did, Jesus wasn't following himself He was following God, who is way and the life.Hi Gene,
False accusations.
Have I ever said the Word spoke his own Words?
Please get it right.
Let me say it for you.
There is NO DIFFERENCE between Jesus being the WORD,the TRUTH and the LIGHT.
Please listen to scripture and not weave it to fit your own personal doctrines.Nick…..your wrong again, You said That John1:1 is refering to Jesus and if you believe that you must also believe (and the word was GOD) also, when i tried to get you to explain Dut 18:18-19 you change the subject matter refusing to see that God Himself is the WORD,and By makeing Jesus the WORD instead of the messenger who spoke (GOD”S WORDS) by saying the WORD became Flesh instead of the word came to be in Flesh you were turning Jesus into GOD Himself reather you realise it or not. Jesus never said i am the word, your the one saying that, and while Jesus is the spokesman of
(GOD'S WORD) he himself is not that word. And you trying to say I am forceing peolpe to believe what i say is another of your lies I have alway said and still say this may take on the subject and i think i have as much right to have a view point as you or any one else on this site, I sorry if my view points desagree with yours it certanly doesn't make me or anyone else wrong because we disagree with you does it. I originally thought you were wrong and i still do.
thanks….geneQuote (IM4Truth @ July 28 2007,05:31) Jodi No I am not that rude to say what you are saying is limiting God. No and I would not say that it is a Mystery, because God has revealed the Mystery of God to the saints.
Ephesians 1:9 “and 3:3-9and 6:19and col.1:26
Neither do I believe in the trinity doctrine. No not just in pure faith either, it says in
1 Thes.5:21 Prove all thingsThe name Jesus was given to Son/Word when He became flesh;
John 1:14 ” And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, …”
The Apostle John is the only one that referrers to the Son as the Word of the Old Testament. The reason, the Son/Word did all the speaking for God, and He only spoke the Word that God gave Him to speak,
John 12:49
Jesus told us that no man at anytime, old or new Testament, has heard Gods Voice,
John 5:37
Since the Son is the one that all things were created by, John 1″3 and Col.1:16, it has to be one and the same.
This also shows that the Son existed from the beginning of creation. He, the Son, is the image of the invisible God, Col.1:15.
An image can not be a thought or an idea in Gods mind.
God is the creator of spirit being and Human beings. We believe that some of us will become spirit beings, which is a change of nature, why then should we doubt that God can change a spirit being, His Son, into a human being. It is a change of nature too.
Christ experience this change twice
John 17:5 ” AND NOW, O FATHER, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THENE OWN SELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
What is Christ asking His Father? Answer: to give Him back His Glory, spirit nature that He had before He became flesh.
Hebrew 2:7 ” Thou madest Him a little lower then the angels; (the Son became flesh) thou crownedst Him with glory and honor ( Christ ascended into heaven and God gave Him a divine nature, immortality),
and didst set Him over the works of thy hands.
Peace and Love to you Mrs.IM4Truth
IM 4 Truth –
If I have read your post correctly, it seems that John 1:3, Col 1:16 and Col 1:15 are where you form your base for the Pre-existent Son. All other scriptures you interpret from this base.The problem I see is that your interpretation conflicts with other scriptures and your belief is not verified in the OT. You believe that a Son was created first, and then that Son created the Heavens and the earth. Oddly the OT talks about the heavens and the earth being created numerous times, but never is there a single mention about the Son creating it. Moreover, there is not a single mention of a Son being created before all things in the OT. We are told however, what God did create first, and she sheds greater light on the foreknowledge of Jesus.
Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries out: 4 “To you, O people, I call, and my cry is to all that live. 5 O simple ones, learn prudence; acquire intelligence, you who lack it. 6 Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right; 7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing twisted or crooked in them. 9 They are all straight to one who understands and right to those who find knowledge. 10 Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 for wisdom is better than jewels, and all that you may desire cannot compare with her. 12 I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I attain knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. 14 I have good advice and sound wisdom; I have insight, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; 16 by me rulers rule, and nobles, all who govern rightly. 17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity. 19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice, 21 endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries
Proverbs 8:22The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.
32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Happy is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord;
—So it was a special spirit of wisdom which God created first.
Proverbs 3:13 Happy are those who find wisdom, and those who get understanding, 14 for her income is better than silver, and her revenue better than gold. 15 She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. 16 Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy.
19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; 20 by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew.
Jeremiah 10: 12 It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 13 When he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings out the wind from his storehouses.
–It was God’s voice that created the heavens and earth, not a Son’s voice.
Proverbs 7:1 My child, keep my words and store up my commandments with you; 2 keep my commandments and live, keep my teachings as the apple of your eye; 3 bind them on your fingers, write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” and call insight your intimate friend,
Isaiah 11:1 A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The spirit of the Lord shall rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
–The spirit of wisdom, which God created first and was with Him during creation delighting in the human race, was foreknown to be given to Jesus. As free will individuals made to take on information and knowledge, it is quite essential that the knowledge and wisdom we are to attain for righteousness and eternal life is to come solely from God. In the beginning God create a way in which He could give His wisdom to the human race, an
d she is called the spirit of wisdom.It is human nature to want to do things your own way, we see this in our littlest of children. We must learn that our Creator, our Father, knows the best way, and He saw it necessary for a time to let us follow our own way in order to know the truth. Of course the truth being that our way sucks and His way is glorious. Learning and following God’s way is a matter of our spirit taking on His wisdom. By having God’s wisdom, knowing and living by it, we become righteous and united with God. This uniter, our sister, the spirit of wisdom, came down from heaven and was given to Jesus. This is the glory that Jesus had with God in the beginning, the spirit that would make him the Messiah.1 Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. 7 But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
Colossians 2:2 I want their hearts to be encouraged and united in love, so that they may have all the riches of assured understanding and have the knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
–God’s wisdom was secret and hidden, not a pre-existent Son, and this wisdom Of God was revealed in full force upon coming down from heaven and entering the spirit of Christ.
James 3:17 – But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy.
Pr 11:2 – When pride comes, then comes disgrace; but wisdom is with the humble.
Mt 23:12 -All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.Nick you have created a HUGE problem with your misinterpretation of Philippians 2, concerning Christ, wisdom and humility.
To say that a pre-existent Son came down to humble himself, tells me that the Son must have had a large ego. A repeated problem in the bible with mankind is PRIDE, something which God hates, and uses PUNISHMENT in order to HUMBLE those who are prideful. Humbling is a matter of the spirit learning meekness, and ridding arrogance.
If God’s Son was coming down from heaven to humble himself, then he was surely without God’s Wisdom, and I don’t see how he could have created the heavens and earth, and spoken on the behalf of God as the Word, without it.
In my opinion Nick your interpretation is merely serving your Own doctrine and is cutting out the heart of the lesson and the simple truth.
Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility regard others as better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. 5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
–Throughout the bible and all throughout history, people in a position of power, grossly abuse that power, and instead of serving others, they serve themselves. Moreover they exalt themselves above all others, and often times they exalt themselves as a god.
This is exactly what the King of Babylon did and God cut him down from his pride. (Isaiah 14)
This attitude of pride was never found in Christ. Even though Jesus had the power of God he did not use it for himself, he remained humble. Jesus could be seen as equal with God by the powers given to him, but he did not see it as something that he would exploit. Using the spirit of wisdom he kept himself humble, emptying himself of all evil thoughts his weak flesh drew him to under God’s power. Jesus could have easily taken the attitude of so many others, exalting himself, however he did the opposite and kept his mind in human likeness instead, always remaining to us a brother and our simple teacher of God’s ways.
The message of Philippians 2 is that as Christ did not serve himself by the gifts given to him by God, we to shall work to do the same, serving each other as Jesus so graciously served us.
1Peter 3:8 – Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
Jesus was exalted because he overcame what so many people throughout history did not do, and still to this day don’t , remain humble when put in a position of power. Philippians 2 is talking about what a HUMAN BEING accomplished, and what we as HUMAN Beings can accomplish as well.
By saying Philippians 2 is talking about a Pre-existing Son is to take away God’s purpose in Christ, which was for him to be a human being teaching other human beings how to follow God. More specifically in this chapter, we are learning HUMAN humility, something our weak flesh draws us away from, but our mind if kept in Christ will surely keep us into and united together in.
Jas 4:6 – But he gives all the more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
Jas 4:10 – Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.Ephesians 1:15 I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, and for this reason 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you as I remember you in my prayers. 17 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation as you come to know him, 18 so that, with the eyes of your heart enlightened, you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance among the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power for us who believe, according to the working of his great power. 20 God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. 22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
The simple truth is, John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16 is being verified in the rest of the bible as teaching that the earth was created for the perfected man and by the foreknowledge that Jesus would become the firstborn out of the dead of all creation. I have yet to find or be given a scripture confirming a pre-existing Son.
As well, it seems that the idea of a pre-existing Christ is taking away from the truthful and fruitful meaning of many scriptures, including Philippians 2.
Sister Jodi,
I admire your Bible study and ability to communicate simple truths.
I have yet to see scripture in the OT that tells me the preexistent son was alive and well.
Further, if certain ones believe that JESUS preexisted – how did he preexist? As the Word? Well, the Word came down (and went through the conception process). Would the Word be the “Word” any longer when it was joined with Mary? I hardly think so. So much for that theory.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2007,09:40) Hi not3,
When we meet the Lord we will not need to explain what humbling ourself means.
Maybe not.But Jodi has offered an excellent post with many valid ideas and interpretations of scripture.
I have only heard you quote a few scriptures that make you believe in your preexistent son. These scriptures are neither clear or widely accepted that they point to a preexistent spirit son. Nick, your theology is strange. I have come to accept this. I have learned a lot from you, but I am also very cautious now what I take as the gospel from you. If you feel this is an unfair treatment of your beliefs. Please lay your beliefs out, plainly and clearly, so that I might be able to follow you without going in a circle. Thank you.
Jodie I will just tell you scripture and you tell me what they mean, I did not interpret scriptures I just gave them to you and here they are again without any of my words.
John1:2
John3:13
John 6:62
Col. 1:15&16
Rev. 34:14
Gen.1:26
Now you tell me what they mean.Quote (IM4Truth @ July 30 2007,10:03) Jodie I will just tell you scripture and you tell me what they mean, I did not interpret scriptures I just gave them to you and here they are again without any of my words.
John1:2
John3:13
John 6:62
Col. 1:15&16
Rev. 34:14
Gen.1:26
Now you tell me what they mean.
IM 4 Truth,IM 4 Truth,
Peace and love to you. I hope that I have not offended you in anyway with my posts in response to yours, if I have I am sorry. Thought you might like to know a little about me. I attended the WW Church of God from about the age of 6 to 18. I actually was suppose to attend Ambassador college on a volleyball scholarship, just months before the changes were made. My parents raised me, it seemed with one goal in mind, and that was to attend Ambassador. My parents not going along with the changes, REALLY didn’t want me to attend the college anymore. This was hard for me, and it seemed so unfair, however I had to agree with them, the changes were just not right. My parents helped establish the United Church of God in our area along with the pastor we previously had in the WWC. I attended that church for about a year and then quit because the pastor was arrogant and I pretty much couldn’t stand him. Not until after college and a few years of marriage I decided to take up studying the bible. I don’t know about you and everyone else, but the computer has been a huge help in my studies. For the past couple of years I have been comparing all different denominational doctrines, looking particularly at the scriptures they use for proof. Awhile back I came across writings by the Christadelphians on the topic of pre-existence. There understanding and use of scripture further added insight to the conclusion I was already beginning to make, that Jesus could not have pre-existed.We all have different working brains, and different life experiences that make us view things differently. What makes sense to me, might not to someone else and vise versa. I am not here to tell you that I know the truth and you don’t. Only God and Jesus know the truth. I am just here to defend what makes the best sense to me. By debating with others I feel that I can either confirm what I already believe or learn something new by another persons insight.
This web-site deals with all the scriptures you have mentioned. I hope it gives you further understanding of why I am convinced that Jesus did not pre-exist.
Once again peace and love to you.
Hi Jodi,
From your site
“From his mother, he derived the nature common to all mankind, but from his Father he inherited latent spiritual proclivities that strengthened him to conquer the flesh, and manifest divine qualities “So
Do you agree Mary provided both the male and female elements to form Christ and he was not conceived?
Do you agree he was not like us in all ways but born with latent abilities of his own so that he did not need the anointing power of God?Acts 10:38 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public DomainActs 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.HEB 2
” 13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
Hi Jodi,
AGAIN
'. He was executed as a criminal, but, in fact, never sinned, and therefore God's justice demanded his resurrection (Acts 2:24).”Acts 2
” 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.”
So was his resurrection a prize for good behaviour or proof he was the promised Messiah?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
