Preexistence

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Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,13:50)

Quote

In Colossians 1:15, is it the “Spirit of Sonship” who is the VISIBLE image of the invisible God?

If you live by the Spirit of God then you are the image of the invisible God as you do as God does for God does his works through you.

Okay Kerwin,

Let's re-do Col 1 YOUR way. The capped words are where I inserted YOUR understanding into the scripture:

15 ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD is the image of the invisible God, and the firstborn over all creation. 16 For through ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD and for ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD. 17 ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD is before all things, and in ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD all things hold together. 18 And ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD is the head of the body, the church; ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, 20 and through ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD'S blood, shed on the cross.

How's that workin' for ya so far?

mike

July 31, 2011 at 9:58 pm#254590

Pastry

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,07:23)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,13:50)

Quote

In Colossians 1:15, is it the “Spirit of Sonship” who is the VISIBLE image of the invisible God?

If you live by the Spirit of God then you are the image of the invisible God as you do as God does for God does his works through you.

Okay Kerwin,

Let's re-do Col 1 YOUR way. The capped words are where I inserted YOUR understanding into the scripture:

How's that workin' for ya so far?

mike

August 1, 2011 at 5:33 am#254649

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 01 2011,01:54)

Kerwin

Quote

Those who believe God are created in Christ Jesus through the Spirit of God that carries out the Word of God. That is why it is the Spirit of sonship.

what is this mean ?

is this one of your making ?

Pierre

Pierre,

I assume you know the Spirit of God is God’s primary agent as it is his Spirit.

I assume you also acknowledge that as an Agent it carries out the word of God.

I also assume you know that the human being Jesus is united with that very same Spirit through which God lives in him and he lives in God.

In addition I assume you know that it is by that very same Spirit that those that believe are spiritually recreated. I also assume that you realize that it is so that by it God lives in them through the Spirit’s unity with Jesus and they live in God by that same unity that all are unified.

You should know it is that unity with the Spirit of God that makes one a child of God for God is spirit.

If you know all of this then you should understand what I wrote. If you don’t understand it then ask me to explain what you do not understand and may God explain it through me.

August 1, 2011 at 5:57 am#254650

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,02:23)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,13:50)

Quote

In Colossians 1:15, is it the “Spirit of Sonship” who is the VISIBLE image of the invisible God?

If you live by the Spirit of God then you are the image of the invisible God as you do as God does for God does his works through you.

Okay Kerwin,

Let's re-do Col 1 YOUR way. The capped words are where I inserted YOUR understanding into the scripture:

How's that workin' for ya so far?

mike

Mike,

Offhand I noticed you seem not to have included a few important aspects to what I have wrote. I am sorry for being unclear about them. First believers fall short of the glory of God and so are adopted spiritual(not physical) sons of God and Jesus who did not fall short is a natural spiritual(not physical) son of God. Second it is only through Jesus that believers are connected to God by the Spirit of God and so they are the image of Jesus who is the image of God. Third it is through Jesus that those that believe are united with the Spirit of God. Forth is that those who unite with the Spirit of God, who is the major partner, inherit its debts and assets as inherits theirs. These aspects and perhaps others I am currently unaware of alter how I understand the principles of Colossians 1:15-20 if they were applied to believers.

August 1, 2011 at 6:50 am#254654

Pastry

Participant

Kerwin

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

These Scriptures show three things. First it shows that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and then the firstborn of the death. He is the head of the Church….so He may have preeminence…..
God also created all through Jesus. Col. 1:16 and John 1:3

Peace and Love Irene

August 2, 2011 at 2:12 am#254727

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,23:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,02:23)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,13:50)

Quote

In Colossians 1:15, is it the “Spirit of Sonship” who is the VISIBLE image of the invisible God?

If you live by the Spirit of God then you are the image of the invisible God as you do as God does for God does his works through you.

Okay Kerwin,

Let's re-do Col 1 YOUR way. The capped words are where I inserted YOUR understanding into the scripture:

How's that workin' for ya so far?

mike

Mike,

Okay Kerwin,

I won't pretend that I understood what you just posted. Why don't you just do the passage I quoted YOUR way. In every single instance were I capped “ANYONE WHO LIVES BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD”, MY understanding is that the words “JESUS CHRIST” should be there.

So…………….fill in those capped words with YOUR understanding, please.

peace,
mike

August 2, 2011 at 2:29 am#254730

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,04:54)

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,11:21)

Hi Mike:

And so, the scripture states that Jesus is the “firstborn of every creature”. How does that translate to your understanding that “he is the first creature created by God”?

I don't think this phrase is all that hard to understand…………..UNLESS you already have an agenda you're trying to maintain.

Cain was the firstborn of all mankind, right? What does that mean? It means that of ALL THOSE BORN OF HUMAN PARENTS THAT HAVE EVER EXISTED, Cain was the first.

Would you agree with this, Marty?

If not, then why?

And if so, then apply that same logic to “firstborn of all creation”. It means that of ALL CREATURES THAT HAVE EVER EXISTED, Jesus was the first.

Like I said, it's not really that hard if you don't have an agenda to maintain.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike:

Cain was indeed the “firsborn” of humankind from Adam and Eve.

But the question was how does “firsborn of all creation” translate to “first creature that God created”.

Adam was created. Cain was born of a woman. Do you understand the difference?

The agenda that I have to maintain is to teach the Word of God in truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 2, 2011 at 3:00 am#254736

Blocked

Sure Marty.

Let me break it down.

Cain is the first human being ever brought forth from two human being parents, right? And because of this, we can call Cain the “firstborn of every human creature”, right? Cain is not the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, because angels and animals and fish and birds and his parents all existed before he did, right? But he IS the “firstborn of every human creature”, because neither Adam nor Eve were “born”.

Okay, so by calling Cain “the firstborn of every human creature”, we know that he is the very first “human creature” to ever be born, right?

And if that's what “firstborn of every HUMAN creature” means, then what do you suppose “firstborn of EVERY creature, period” means? If for Cain, it means he was the first HUMAN creature to be born, then for Jesus, it would have to mean that he was the first of ALL CREATURES OF EVERY KIND to be born.

peace,
mike

August 2, 2011 at 3:03 am#254737

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:00)

Sure Marty.

Let me break it down.

Okay, so by calling Cain “the firstborn of every human creature”, we know that he is the very first “human creature” to ever be born, right?

And if that's what “firstborn of every human creature” means, then what do you suppose “firstborn of EVERY creature, period” means? If for Cain, it means he was the first HUMAN creature to be born, then for Jesus, it would have to mean that he was the first of ALL CREATURES OF EVERY KIND to be born.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike:

But you said that he (Jesus) was the first creature to be created by God. Is this not what you said?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 2, 2011 at 3:06 am#254739

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2011,20:29)

But the question was how does “firsborn of all creation” translate to “first creature that God created”.

And here is the simplistic answer:

“Firstborn of every creature” means that out of every creature that ever existed, Jesus was the one who was brought forth by his God first.

Just like “firstborn of every angel” would refer to the first angel ever to be brought forth.

And “firstborn of every monkey” would refer the the first monkey ever to have been brought forth.

And so on, an so on.

Are we there yet?

mike

August 2, 2011 at 3:07 am#254740

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2011,21:03)

Hi Mike:

But you said that he (Jesus) was the first creature to be created by God. Is this not what you said?

That is correct. Why?

August 2, 2011 at 3:11 am#254741

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:07)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2011,21:03)

Hi Mike:

But you said that he (Jesus) was the first creature to be created by God. Is this not what you said?

That is correct. Why?

Hi Mike:

Because the scripture states that he is the “firstborn” of every creature not the “the first creature created”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 2, 2011 at 3:12 am#254742

Blocked

Oh, I see. You are hung up on the words “born/created”?

Marty, I was born, but I'm still a creation of my God, right?

August 2, 2011 at 3:21 am#254744

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:12)

Oh, I see. You are hung up on the words “born/created”?

Marty, I was born, but I'm still a creation of my God, right?

Hi Mike:

Yes, Mike Eve is the mother of all living. And so, yes, you are a creature who was born from a woman. Adam and Eve were created. The rest of humanity, except for Jesus, were born the sperm of man.

Do you know of anyone before him who was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 2, 2011 at 3:27 am#254745

Blocked

I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty.

My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God.

So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God? You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.

He was begotten, born, created, brought forth. Do you suppose these words contradict each other? If so, why?

August 2, 2011 at 4:54 am#254751

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,12:50)

Kerwin

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side.

As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ. Even angels were not glorified to that extend as God instructed angels to subject themselves to Jesus the Anointed.

August 2, 2011 at 5:28 am#254755

Participant

Mike,

I am not sure why you cannot understand what I wrote.

In short Colossians 1:14-19 is teaching us that Jesus is the natural spiritual Son of God. Those that believe are adopted sons of God and that makes a difference.

In the following rundown I quote what I said and then some supporting scripture in order to aid your understanding. The secound and third points are similar so the scriptures after my third point also apply to my secound point.

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First believers fall short of the glory of God and so are adopted spiritual(not physical) sons of God and Jesus who did not fall short is a natural spiritual(not physical) son of God.

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Romans 3:23

King James Version (KJV)

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

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Hebrews 4:15

King James Version (KJV)

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

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Romans 8:15

King James Version (KJV)

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

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Romans 6:22

King James Version (KJV)

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

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Third it is through Jesus that those that believe are united with the Spirit of God.

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John 17

King James Version (KJV)

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

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Ephesians 2

King James Version (KJV)

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

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Second it is only through Jesus that believers are connected to God by the Spirit of God and so they are the image of Jesus who is the image of God.

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Ephesians 4:13

King James Version (KJV)

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

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Colossians 1:19

King James Version (KJV)

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Forth is that those who unite with the Spirit of God, who is the major partner, inherit its debts and assets as inherits theirs

Quote

Mark 14:36

King James Version (KJV)

36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

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1 Corinthians 6:17

King James Version (KJV)

17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

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Colossians 1

King James Version (KJV)

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

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Colossians 2:14

New International Version (NIV)

14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Edited to add spacing.

August 2, 2011 at 9:16 am#254773

terraricca

Participant

Kerwin

Quote

Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side.

As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ

what do you mean by ” is the natural Son of God's spirit “

natural means more physically no ?

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God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ

Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

I do not understand your comment and wish to see a scripture to see truth in it .

Pierre

August 2, 2011 at 9:49 am#254780