Preexistence

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,07:08)

Quote (Jodi @ July 26 2007,06:03) Still thinking about the WITH in John 1:1 I think we can all admit that the word itself on its own can apply to being both something that is physical or something spiritual. My opinion is that the With in John 1:1, makes best sense looking at it in both the physical sense and the spiritual sense, simply because we know that God’s word is active. To make a comparison, I see it kinda like a robot that only does things according to it’s owner’s voice. The robot is therefore with the owner in a physical sense, and also in a spiritual sense. The robot is separate from it’s owner in a physical sense, but yet everything that the Robot does comes directly from the mind of the owner. The are physically separate yet they are one in mind, actually more accurate would be one in function. The argument seems to be, of those who believe in pre-existence, that the With in John is represented not only as being restricted to the physical sense, but that physical sense is a person. The word of God is active / through the use of mere words, God is able to make things happen. Therefore God’s word, like the robot, is physically separate, but one in function. Example, God speaks, ‘let there be rain’ — the rain is therefore physically separate, but it is functioning only according to God. How is God’s word active we might ask? Is it because it is a separate being? Or is it because God’s unique powers allow his word to be so? I think that it would have to be said that without the pre-existent Jesus, God’s word would still have the ability to be active. I believe that power would still be with Him, or should I say, to avoid confusion, the power of God making the word active would still be His. Let’s see if I can get this right according to what the pre-existent believers think….. the word-being the pre-existent Jesus- means that God gave him the power to have active words. …OK wait a minute then those active words would be from Jesus and not from God. …OK it must be then that you believe that God communicates the word to the pre-existent Jesus (so the words will be God’s and not his) and then Jesus says the words and they are active through God giving him His powers. I’m just trying to figure out how this all goes down, Jesus being the Word and all. I would like to know in detail what it means that a pre-existent person is the WORD. Please, clarify, so I can fully understand your doctrine. Am I even close? I would also like to know where in the OT it shows a pre-existent being as being the Word of God. As well, I don’t think the problem has been addressed to those perpetuating pre-existence but don’t believe in the Trinity how you get around calling Jesus the word but not God, according to John 1:1? Sorry if it has already been explained. Hi Jodi, A ROBOT? A ROBOT was WITH GOD. You do not need all these human rationalisations. He was before Abraham. He is the root of David. He is the first and the last.

I didn't say a Robot was with God,
that would be stupid,
and it sounds like something a nutty scientologist would say.

I said a Robot is with it's owner because whatever the Robot does comes from the mind of it's owner.

I am trying to illustrate to you how the word, with works, because you seem very ignorant about it.

Nick is there something wrong with these sentences?
God has never lost His powers. God's powers have always been with Him.

God has never lost His ability to speak. God's speech has always been with Him.

God has communicated with us that He wants to be our Father and we His children. He used these terms because we are very familiar with them and can thus rationalize, or reduce our minds to what kind of relationship we are to have with Him. If God would have just told us that He wanted to be any old member of our family, that would be leaving our minds open a little, making it hard to rationalize just exactly what kind of relationship we are to have with Him. God, however, appealing to our ability to rationalize, which is something He gave us and for good purpose, told us He wants to be our Father, so we would know exactly how we are to view Him.

I see how it is. I am always going to be wrong because I have to think with my human brain to interpret and understand the bible, but you on the other hand, are very special, you probably don't even have to read it to understand it. Your so lucky.

Yes, I appoligize, I like to think hard when it comes to what is being said in the bible, my bad!

Nick I would like to thank you, Your opposition to my beliefs have resulted in me further digging into the bible, and have furthered my beliefs that Jesus did not pre-exist. Oppositon can be very necessary for further education, thanks dearly.

[kenrch]

Quote

Nick I would like to thank you, Your opposition to my beliefs have resulted in me further digging into the bible, and have furthered my beliefs that Jesus did not pre-exist. Oppositon can be very necessary for further education, thanks dearly.

That's what Nick does he makes us dig deeper by his attitude.

Thanks Nick, really THANKS!

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
You say
“God's speech has always been with Him”
The power of speech is surely not the same as the WORDS spoken .

[michaels]

hi NH who said we cannot pour out our spirit, and why do you think we would die if our spirit was with us instead of in us?

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
Jas 2
” 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”

[michaels]

without the spirit,but the body is not without the spirit if the spirit is still with the body,

[NickHassan]

Hi m,
With does not mean in.

[charity]

Quote (kejonn @ July 26 2007,01:15)

Quote (Bibliophile @ July 24 2007,22:25) Hi Gene, You can disagree with me, that's fine. Please comment about Revelation 19:13 calling Jesus the word of God. By the way, I do not believe in the trinity doctrine at all. Thanks Bib, Do you know of any good scholars who assert that revelation was written prior to the Gospel of John? I know my Ryrie Study Bible lists the date of authorship of Revelation a few years earlier than the Gospel of John. That would lead to the use of the Word in John 1. Isn't it odd that the Word is never used again in the Gospel of John past the 1st chapter?

Yep This is why you never see the Head Lines, psychic wins Gold Lotto

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ,(Awakening) which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;(effect of vision) and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

I’m glad THE APOSTAL John didn't start using the angel of Jesus as ingredients for his mouse flavoured cat food, comforter exchanges Jesus, and holy ghosts breathed on the disiples he loved

The apostle John can hardly be worthy of these writings against John the Baptist?
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: I am sure John the Baptist, has words that have seen into heavens after a chariot ride their, and his return to usher the Savour
Whom ushered the testimony of Jesus, and prepared the people for his coming So Jesus Angel signified to John things to come, showing to him things which shortly come to pass

Mat 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Hath not risen one greater than John the baptist?
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

[michaels]

you are correct with does not mean in,so is yor spirit in you or with you?there were times god put his spirit in,and times god put his spirit on,and times he was with,so was he dead to them who just had his spirit on or with them ,because he wasent in them ?is on the same as with?

[NickHassan]

Hi m,
Where is the Spirit said to be with any Prophet?

[charity]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,13:50)

Hi m, Where is the Spirit said to be with any Prophet?

2Sa 23:1 ¶ Now these [be] the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man [who was] raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 “The Spirit of the LORD spake by me”, and “his word [was] in *my tongue”.

[NickHassan]

Amen, within him.

[charity]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,14:24)

Amen, within him.

Ezekiel’s prophecies for God, one King over the Nations, that shall rise from the graves and God shall put his spirit in them
Eze 37:1
¶The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones,
Eze 37:9
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
  (This reveals the apostals Johns attempt to explan * Jesus breathing the Holy Ghost on his Disiples, to raise an army?)
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.    
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Eze 37:22  And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:  Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
¶ And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
David is a 'type' of Christ

[charity]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,14:38)

Hi charity, David is a 'type' of Christ

in fact appearing as the visiable redeemner of souls for God from the first creation that was lost, those that are in need of the resurrection from the dead
should have no need of resurrection from the dead, by overcoming the power of the second death, by the Life that has given to us

[NickHassan]

Quote (charity @ July 26 2007,14:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,14:38) Hi charity, David is a 'type' of Christ in fact appearing as  the visiable redeemner of souls for God from the first creation that was lost, those that are in need of the resurrection from the dead should have no need of resurrection from the dead, by overcoming the power of the second death, by the Life that has given to us

Hi charity,
All who have died in Christ will be raised in the first resurrection having already passed over from death to life by the abiding Spirit and will never see the second death.

Some will escape the second death after the second resurrection by the works of mercy done to those in Christ and thus to Christ.

[charity]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,14:56)

Quote (charity @ July 26 2007,14:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,14:38) Hi charity, David is a 'type' of Christ in fact appearing as  the visiable redeemner of souls for God from the first creation that was lost, those that are in need of the resurrection from the dead should have no need of resurrection from the dead, by overcoming the power of the second death, by the Life that has given to us Hi charity, All who have died in Christ will be raised in the first resurrection having already passed over from death to life by the abiding Spirit and will never see the second death. Some will escape the second death after the second resurrection by the works of mercy done to those in Christ and thus to Christ.

for then you have completly steeped over the promise of the first age, and continue all things, as God has done nothing,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Blessed are the just who shall escape the great judgment,

Blessed is he that is adopted from creation to creation
The Aeon of the divine Nature lays itself down as a bridge for us over trouble waters ends an epoch…and initiates a new era
Sorts the seeds, transports good seed to a new era, Promised Land, where no unrighteousness may enter
Leaves bad seed untransformed;.untransported, growing An army , as the sand of the sea, without perceiving the age of Judgement in its time set
AS An Angel, spread over the waters, for a period of judgement time, one foot on each Land

Sin is before Gods Face, grace and mercy, deceit is before mans face. And all that is done in deceit, is sin before God, that we are promised our sin is covered for what we have not understood, being innocent to the knowledge of evil, by a heart that did what ever it did unto God, when the time comes, and he awakes us to the power of the truth, who shall know then… who shall go on to rule with a iron Rod, as Christ was given from his father in heaven

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
Grace does all.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,12:24)

Hi m, With does not mean in.

Dude, it most certainly does

I have already given you examples that it does.
Use a thesaurus-

with-
by means of

with also means through and through also means in and in also means within

with also means by and by also means in

with also means in the midst of, which also simply means in.

with-
in the company of

with-
in addition to

You are having a problem Nick not admitting that under the definition of WITH, it IS permissible under the English language to interpret, “the word was with God,” as being the word was in God.

Whether or not you think this interpretation is accurate has no bearing on the way in which the word 'with' can be defined.

Even the Greeks believed that the word WITH means IN,

From-The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

===================================
Original Word ejn
Transliterated Word En

Definition
1.in, by, with etc.

KJV Verse Count
Greek Word: Ejn
Transliterated Word: en
Book to Display: John
Verse Count: 169

Joh 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
==============================================

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
So the WORD was IN THE COMPANY OF GOD?
Yes

[Author]

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