Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 26 2007,04:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,20:41) Hi Mim, If Jesus began life in Israel then, as we are seeing, students of the bible may begin to put Abraham and David above him as his human fathers. Abraham and David are indeed the human ancestors/forefathers of Jesus the Messiah FYI (Mat 1:1)  The book of the generation [Gk. genesis] of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (Luke 1:32)  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (Luke 3:31)  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, (Luke 3:34)  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

HiAP,
No question that Christ is the Son of David and will inherit that throne.
He is also the ROOT and the LORD of David.

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

He is the first and the last.

[Jodi]

Matthew 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Revelation 19:13
He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus (God is salvation) was called the anointed, he was anointed with God’s word, and it was by this anointing through the Holy Spirit that Jesus acted as God’s salvation.

John 14:24 – Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; and the word that you hear is not mine, but is from the Father who sent me.

Jesus can rightfully be named the word of God, because while on earth he spoke God’s words.

Jesus is said to be the light of the world, are we then suppose to believe that he is literally the sun? Of course not that is absurd, just like it is absurd to think that a person is literally God’s active word.

[NickHassan]

Hi JOdi,
God is the Father of Lights so the light was in Christ making him the light of the world.
The Word was with God
The God was made flesh
and dwelt among us.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 26 2007,05:05)

BTW genesis means beginning!

Hi AP,
Is Genesis written?
Did God not exist before Genesis?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Jodi @ July 26 2007,06:03)

Still thinking about the WITH in John 1:1 I think we can all admit that the word itself on its own can apply to being both something that is physical or something spiritual. My opinion is that the With in John 1:1, makes best sense looking at it in both the physical sense  and the spiritual sense, simply because we know that God’s word is active. To make a comparison, I see it kinda like a robot that only does things according to it’s owner’s voice. The robot is therefore with the owner in a physical sense, and also in a spiritual sense. The robot is separate from it’s owner in a physical sense, but yet everything that the Robot does comes directly from the mind of the owner. The are physically separate yet they are one in mind, actually more accurate would be one in function.   The argument seems to be, of those who believe in pre-existence, that the With in John is represented not only as being restricted to the physical sense, but that physical sense is a person. The word of God is active / through the use of mere words, God is able to make things happen. Therefore God’s word, like the robot, is physically separate, but one in function. Example, God speaks, ‘let there be rain’ — the rain is therefore physically separate, but it is functioning only according to God. How is God’s word active we might ask? Is it because it is a separate being? Or is it because God’s unique powers allow his word to be so? I think that it would have to be said that without the pre-existent Jesus, God’s word would still have the ability to be active. I believe that power would still be with Him, or should I say, to avoid confusion, the power of God making the word active would still be His. Let’s see if I can get this right according to what the pre-existent believers think….. the word-being the pre-existent Jesus- means that God gave him the power to have active words. …OK wait a minute then those active words would be from Jesus and not from God. …OK it must be then that you believe that God communicates the word to the pre-existent Jesus (so the words will be God’s and not his) and then Jesus says the words and they are active through God giving him His powers. I’m just trying to figure out how this all goes down, Jesus being the Word and all. I would like to know in detail what it means that a pre-existent person is the WORD. Please, clarify, so I can fully understand your doctrine. Am I even close? I would also like to know where in the OT it shows a pre-existent being as being the Word of God. As well, I don’t think the problem has been addressed to those perpetuating pre-existence but don’t believe in the Trinity how you get around calling Jesus the word but not God, according to John 1:1? Sorry if it has already been explained.

Hi Jodi,
A ROBOT?
A ROBOT was WITH GOD.
You do not need all these human rationalisations.

He was before Abraham.
He is the root of David.
He is the first and the last.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 26 2007,06:15)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2007,09:10) Hi Jodi, You ask. “For those who believe in a pre-existent son, I have some questions for you- What was God’s purpose for creating a pre-existent son?” God was lonely. He had a lot of work to do. So the builder begat a carpenter. “What further understanding can we gain from knowing that Jesus pre-existed?” Respect for one who gave up all he enjoyed with God for our sakes. Respect for one who showed what it is to fear God. Respect for one who had truly humble faith. “Was it necessary for our salvation that Jesus pre-exist?” No. Nonetheless it is revealed. God was lonely?  This is an interesting response from someone who does not believe in the Trinity.  Usually, I get this type of response from those who believe there are “three persons” in One God.  They believe God is a Trinity because somehow God was lonely and needed to show love (and you cannot show love unless there is another “person” to receive the love).  Hmmmm Nick, I'm assuming you also know that God is capable of handling the “work load” of his creation. Is it “truly humble faith” when you know what heaven is, and know that you will return there in 33 or so years?  In my opinion, NO!  Faith is believing in something that you are unsure of – something you do not have – something you are hoping for.   If Jesus was preexistent, he did not operate with “humble faith”, he operated under “assured faith” and that sounds a lot like a “lead zeppelin” to me. JOHN 20:29 “Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.”

Hi not3,
Would you deride the motives of Jesus?
Would you rob him of choice?
Was he forced to save us?

Phil2
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Not3in1]

Hi Nick,

Your comments do not seem to match my post?
I'm not sure what you are implying by your odd questions and choice of scripture?
Thanks anyway.

[Not3in1]

I think Jodi is applying “rationale” principles to her method of studying out scriptures. Sometimes it's necessary to make logical deductions and like comparisions when studying. I've heard the “robot” theory before, and in my opinion, she is not far off. At any rate, we do not want to apply any negative restrictions to anyone in matters of study – right, Nick?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
If Jesus was just born an appointed Saviour then he had no true choice but Phil 2 shows he chose to come to save us and for that reason alone we owe him a massive debt. He who knew no sin took ours to the cross. He knew he would be rewarded but in faith took that risk for us.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2007,09:26)

Hi not3, If Jesus was just born an appointed Saviour then he had no true choice but Phil 2 shows he chose to come to save us and for that reason alone we owe him a massive debt. He who knew no sin took ours to the cross. He knew he would be rewarded but in faith took that risk for us.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

Either he was born to be the Savior, or he came on his own accord to be the Savior.

Either way………could he have made a different choice?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Yes. Phil2.
He could even have challenged God.
Phil2
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2007,19:35)

Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 26 2007,04:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,20:41) Hi Mim, If Jesus began life in Israel then, as we are seeing, students of the bible may begin to put Abraham and David above him as his human fathers. Abraham and David are indeed the human ancestors/forefathers of Jesus the Messiah FYI (Mat 1:1)  The book of the generation [Gk. genesis] of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (Luke 1:32)  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (Luke 3:31)  Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, (Luke 3:34)  Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, HiAP, No question that Christ is the Son of David and will inherit that throne. He is also the ROOT and the LORD of David. Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. He is the first and the last.

De Ja Vu Nick!!

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,23:00)

Hi not3, Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?

Hi Nick … this was explained to before … here is a reminder:

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07)

Scripture is precise and pure. If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used. If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition. It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.

Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.

E.g. (Psa 8:4)  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3

Also (Job 25:6)  How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.

Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.

As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …

(Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!

Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!

BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!

i.e.
(Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:

(Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'

[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)

[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17

G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.

[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).

Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;

Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!

Hope the above clarifies …

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2007,20:05)

Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 26 2007,05:05) BTW genesis means beginning! Hi AP, Is Genesis written? Did God not exist before Genesis?

Nick, Let me break it down small enough for even you to understand …

(Mat 1:1)  The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

i.e. The book of the genesis of Jesus Christ, …

i.e. The book of the beginning of Jesus Christ, …

In other words, Nick …

GOD existed before the book of Genesis (which tells us of the beginning of heaven (sky/universe) and earth 1:1)
Jesus Christ didn't!! It is that simple!
Matthew mentions his genesis/beginning twice.

(Mat 1:18)  Now the birth [Gk. genesis/beginning] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Get it! Jesus Christ began his existence in the womb of his mother.
Thus, because he was begotten by the power/spirit of the Living GOD, the angel Gabriel declared
'for that reason (Gk. dio kai)' he shall be called the Son of GOD. [Luke 1.35]

Now I know Nick, that you won't agree with any of my posts in this thread … nevertheless, I am confident someone else will be edified.  

Adieu!

[NickHassan]

Hi AP,
Thanks but I am no more convinced than I was first time.
Christ was before Abraham and David.
The first and the last.

[Adam Pastor]

Told ya!!

[IM4Truth]

Jodi Thank you for your reply. I just don't understand what you are saying when you say that Jesus of Nazareth was the firstborn. This is a very hard subject and I tell you the truth I don't think it is worth arguing about. Everybody has a opinion of how to study the scripture etc.
It is just like the trinity Doctrine some believe and others don't. Personally I believe because of scriptures given, that Jesus did exist before creation. One can argue this scriptures too
Gen. 1:26 ” Let US make man in our image after our likeness.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.”
verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
When I read these scriptures I have asked myself how can God send His Son if He did not existed before He became a Man.
This is my last reply
, because I don't find it profitable to continue. 101 Pages? It is more important to me that I know that He died for us all and we are covered by His Blood.
Peace Mrs.IM4Truth

[IM4Truth]

Oh, no 102

[NickHassan]

Hi AP,
You say
“Nick, Let me break it down small enough for even you to understand …”
Are you a christian?

[NickHassan]

Hi AP,
You said
“(Mat 1:1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

i.e. The book of the genesis of Jesus Christ, …

i.e. The book of the beginning of Jesus Christ,

Number 1078
Transliteration:
genesis {ghen'-es-is}
Word Origin:
from the same as 1074
TDNT:
1:682,117
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
generation 1, natural 1, nature 1

Total: 3
Definition:
source, origin
a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated
used of birth, nativity
of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life
the wheel of life (Jas 3:6), other explain it, the wheel of human origin which as soon as men are born begins to run, i.e. its course of life

So this speaks of the natural lineage of the man Jesus
but not necessarily of his true origins.

Mat 1
“1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”

[kenrch]

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus was glorified as He was before the foundation of the world. His name……The Word of God

Thanks Jodi

IHN&L,

Ken

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