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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2010,03:42) 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” What did Jesus mean when he said this? Kerwin? Adam? Gene?
mike
Mike……….why make a big deal out of David calling Him his lord, David was His brothers lord and His Fathers lord also, in that sense of authority He is Lord of all, (TO THE GLORY OF GOD). So what is you Point?. Jesus is Lord because of that position GOD Placed on him giving him all authority , and that is what makes him Lord even of David.Trying to turn that into some kind of Proof text for Preexistence is stupid IMO, Jesus never said he was (NOT) the Son of DAVID did He. He ask (HOW) is he called the son of David He was not denying he WAS the Son of DAVID at all> YOU try to force the text to say He was not the Son of DAVID . Why did not Jesus Just say he was not the Son of DAVID then, after all is that not what you are trying to say he was saying.
Your people do the same with John1:1 Philippians, Col, and many other texts you change context and just force your own applied meanings to them even of you have to leave out 90% of the rest of the text to force your conviction brought on by your accepting the GNOSTIC- TRINITARIAN Preexistence teaching you acquired many many years ago in the false churches youy all attended.
You never stop trying to separate Jesus from our (exact Identity) is so obvious to any true seeker of truth. All you who teach the doctrine of Preexistence are (SEPARATIST) AND INDEED ARE ANTICHRISTS , As John Said you are, you view of Jesus is NOT as a FLESH and Blood Human Being but as a God or demigod or supper angel MORPHED INTO A MAN, as the Greeks and Romans Believe by their Pagan roots, rather you understand that or not. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
EDJ……….Dump the number thing, you do a lot better without it brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Quote (barley @ Nov. 25 2010,15:40) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,19:14) Pierre, You ask where scripture states the divine righteousness of God is part of his nature?
As to the word “nature” the definition is “A spontaneous attitude”.
As to the word “divine” the definition is “of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god”.
I thus point out that the words divine nature as defined above can mean righteous attitude of God.
As to scripture Christians are explicitly commanded to wear the divine righteous nature of God in Ephesians 4:24 and Galatians 5:16 makes it clear the command is also stated as walk by the Spirit.
You state that Jesus having an evil nature is not scripture and yet you claim to believe he was tempted as we are. You should consider what James states about temptation and then remove the contradiction from your doctrine.
James 1:14(NIV) reads:
Quote but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
It follows that Jesus knew what he was speaking of when he stated “no one but God is good”.
Well said.barley
Barely……….I agree Kerwin explained it rightly.the device “Nature” can be anyone who has the Spirit (intellect) of the divine GOD (in there hearts and minds)> IMO
But SEPARATIST who are Preexistences and Trinitarians want to separate that from Us, Just as they do Jesus and try to make both something removed from OUR ATTAINMENT AND in that way distort our (EXACT) IDENTITY (WITH) GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS OUR BROTHER. They both not only deny Jesus' humanity, that also denies GODS ability to cause us to recieve this divine Nature Just as GOD Gave it to Another SON OF MAN, JESUS, after his human berth at the Jordan By Pouring that divine Nature out on Him.
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 26 2010,05:09) But SEPARATIST who are Preexistences and Trinitarians want to separate that from Us, Just as they do Jesus and try to make both something removed from OUR ATTAINMENT AND in that way distort our (EXACT) IDENTITY (WITH) GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS OUR BROTHER. They both not only deny Jesus' humanity, that also denies GODS ability to cause us to recieve this divine Nature Just as GOD Gave it to Another SON OF MAN, JESUS, after his human berth at the Jordan By Pouring that divine Nature out on Him.
Gene.Your post and many others has little to do with scripture and more about your understanding and bias.
I try to remove myself from bias and take scripture for what it is, and then form my belief on that. Any other way is pointless. There is no reward in rewriting the truth and then making all scripture line up with your own understanding.
My guess is that you read a writing from someone who didn't believe that Jesus existed in divine nature and then emptied himself and existed in the flesh. My guess is that you were swayed from that day on.
But look at scripture. When the Jews said, “you are not yet 50 years old, how can you have seen Abraham”, he replied , “before Abraham, I am”.
Scripture should win out over your biases and own understanding.
What reward is there for those who try and change the truth? I mean I could almost understand it if you were getting paid or something, but what gain is there? Nothing but loss of course.
Hi brothers Mike and T8,
You claim preexistence of Messiah as per N.T which had deviated from true Monotheism. You don't have problem in calling Jesus God or a god which is nothing but polytheism. You misinterpret Hebrew scriptures to suit your ideas. That is not fair on part of a true believer. If Jesus was existing prior to Abraham and seen him why on earth it was not recorded in the Hebrew scriptures? The Hellenistic writers of N.T didn't have any problem in making Jesus another God or god-man who came down from heaven even it may be true as per Gnosticism. What is the necessity of so called incarnation of alleged Virgin Birth? But all these things are 'Blasphemy' according to true Monotheism of the Bible. Whole of Hebrew Bible says there is no other who is called God with God Yahweh when He created heavens and earth. But Christianity claims no no Jesus was with God and helped Him in that creation. Whom can I believe? This is the fate of Christianity.Hi brother Mike, I have already given explanation on Micah 5:2 stating that it was purely misinterpretation of Christianity to claim preexistence of Messiah. All the prophecies about Messiah were all future events but not any mythological preexisting proofs. Hope you will see the truth in my words.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2010,03:28) I have asked t8, and now I'll ask you Adam: Do you have an issue with Jesus being “a god”?
I agree with your post mostly.The issue I have with this is that people understand a god as another besides God himself.
A god (in English) is also used as an identifier in the sense that one is not assuming that you are talking about nature.
If I say a dog, it usually means a particular dog as opposed to the nature of dog. When we want to relay the latter, we usually say 'the dog family'. If we are talking about a man, then we are talking about a particular man when we say 'a man'. When we want to talk about nature, we say 'mankind'.
In John 1:1 it is more accurate to say divine, than a god because “a” is also talking about the god as in person or another person or object, as opposed to divine nature or God nature. That is why you can use 'a god' to refer to an idol, because it is not addressing divine nature. An idol for example can be made of wood.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 26 2010,14:57) You claim preexistence of Messiah as per N.T which had deviated from true Monotheism. You don't have problem in calling Jesus God or a god which is nothing but polytheism.
Adam. I think the only problem here is the one you have with the New Testament. We are agreeing with it and you are not.Is that a fair assessment?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2010,18:59)
…did not see himself as being equal to God…|
Hi Kerwin, \
<————————
Could you please comment on \ this perceived contradiction?
|
You change the meaning of the text here to 'almost' the complete opposite?
Phil.2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:I make this next comment to avoid 'a speech'…
What is stated both before and after this is “IRRELEVANT” to my question.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Adam. Have you ever heard of ~ L.Ray.Smith ? He has a forum as well. Gene I think you would like him too maybe. Just google it.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 26 2010,14:57) Hi brothers Mike and T8,
(1)You claim preexistence of Messiah as per N.T which had deviated from true Monotheism. You don't have problem in calling Jesus God or a god which is nothing but polytheism. You misinterpret Hebrew scriptures to suit your ideas. That is not fair on part of a true believer. (2)If Jesus was existing prior to Abraham and seen him why on earth it was not recorded in the Hebrew scriptures? The Hellenistic writers of N.T didn't have any problem in making Jesus another God or god-man who came down from heaven even it may be true as per Gnosticism. (3)What is the necessity of so called incarnation of alleged Virgin Birth? (4)But all these things are 'Blasphemy' according to true Monotheism of the Bible. (5)Whole of Hebrew Bible says there is no other who is called God with God Yahweh when He created heavens and earth. (6)But Christianity claims no no Jesus was with God and helped Him in that creation. Whom can I believe? This is the fate of Christianity.Hi brother Mike, I have already given explanation on Micah 5:2 stating that it was purely misinterpretation of Christianity to claim preexistence of Messiah. All the prophecies about Messiah were all future events but not any mythological preexisting proofs. Hope you will see the truth in my words.
Peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,1) How? …Explain.
2) Now your reading into the text. Let me explain how…
If I say the color is NOT white …that doesn't mean the color is black.3) Good question! To illustrate Jesus' “God blood” did NOT trace back to Adam. (and I don't mean you!)
4) How? …Explain.
5) God's name: YHVH (יהוה) is pronounced YÄ-hä-vā !
6) Thanks very much for your concern in this matter!
I propose the idea that we all preexisted!…2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)“The Word” in us!
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J.
No truly righteous man would touch the evil thought of them being equal to God in authority. Such an arrogant idea would be blaspheme to them.
Remember Paul is using Jesus’ actions as an example for believers to follow.
Ed J.
I just go to God for the real understanding as he is well able to speak for himself. Jesus stated that God will give give things to those that truly seek him if they persist in asking, seeking, and knocking with faith and the intention to use what they learn to serve God.
I use Greek and Hebrew lexicons to aid in resolving apparent conflicts in scripture. I also use the beliefs of 1st Century Jews or as close as I can get to help understand context and wording.
Whatever tools I use God must be the instructor.
Mike Boll,
It is my understanding that because of their unbelief the Jews failed to understand the spiritual message of what Jesus was teaching. Since they misunderstood the message what they believed he said was was not what he meant.
He even makes a statement to the effect in John 6:64-65.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 26 2010,18:56) Hi Adam. Have you ever heard of ~ L.Ray.Smith ? He has a forum as well. Gene I think you would like him too maybe. Just google it.
Shimmer……….Yes i have read and downloaded much of his tapes, He is in most cases Spot On, IMO, Me and Him belonged to the same church many many years ago, WWCG. He left the Church about the same time i Did, He exposed much of the wrong the Church was doing and it teachings, which i agree with, I did not personally Know Him but what i left the WWCG for is the same reasons he did. He is a very good teacher, you can learn a lot from his tapes , I would encourage you to listen to his tapes most are solid and sound teachings.peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 26 2010,23:54) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 26 2010,18:56) Hi Adam. Have you ever heard of ~ L.Ray.Smith ? He has a forum as well. Gene I think you would like him too maybe. Just google it.
Shimmer……….Yes i have read and downloaded much of his tapes, He is in most cases Spot On, IMO, Me and Him belonged to the same church many many years ago, WWCG. He left the Church about the same time i Did, He exposed much of the wrong the Church was doing and it teachings, which i agree with, I did not personally Know Him but what i left the WWCG for is the same reasons he did. He is a very good teacher, you can learn a lot from his tapes , I would encourage you to listen to his tapes most are solid and sound teachings.peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
Hi Sis Karmarie,
I also read about this man L Ray Smith. Here is his website:
http://www.bibletruths.com/I first read his article on Tithing. He also wrote against Hell as eternal torment.
But the problem with him is that he believes God as family. God the Father as head of that family and Jesus as His first begotten who is also divine and all believers will also become divine in future.
This is where I differ from him because God can not have equals. All others are His creation. Jesus or other believers are called sons and daughters of God same way as Israel was called as God's firstborn son in a figurative sense but not in literal sense. Sons of God signifies only closeness to God but not in ontological way as many believe here.
I hope brother Gene will agree with me.
Love and peace to you and brother Gene.
AdamQuote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2010,14:30) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 26 2010,05:09) But SEPARATIST who are Preexistences and Trinitarians want to separate that from Us, Just as they do Jesus and try to make both something removed from OUR ATTAINMENT AND in that way distort our (EXACT) IDENTITY (WITH) GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS OUR BROTHER. They both not only deny Jesus' humanity, that also denies GODS ability to cause us to recieve this divine Nature Just as GOD Gave it to Another SON OF MAN, JESUS, after his human berth at the Jordan By Pouring that divine Nature out on Him.
Gene.Your post and many others has little to do with scripture and more about your understanding and bias.
I try to remove myself from bias and take scripture for what it is, and then form my belief on that. Any other way is pointless. There is no reward in rewriting the truth and then making all scripture line up with your own understanding.
My guess is that you read a writing from someone who didn't believe that Jesus existed in divine nature and then emptied himself and existed in the flesh. My guess is that you were swayed from that day on.
But look at scripture. When the Jews said, “you are not yet 50 years old, how can you have seen Abraham”, he replied , “before Abraham, I am”.
Scripture should win out over your biases and own understanding.
What reward is there for those who try and change the truth? I mean I could almost understand it if you were getting paid or something, but what gain is there? Nothing but loss of course.
T8……….See that the problem here you and some others are doing exactly what you accuse us of. You are bringing you Biases to that table which you recieved from your Trinitarian pasts, and the Trinitarians Bring to the table what they recieved from their Gnostic Past.I have tried to explain to you Preexistences as well as trinitarian that the Bottom line of those teaching lies a hidden work, and that work is and was a work of SEPARATION and this is what John was talking about saying it was the denying of Jesus Flesh existence . John was not say they did not believe Jesus existed as you preexistences presume He was talking about how he came into existence .
That is the Spirit of Antichrist , this spirit (intellect) causes a separation between Jesus and Us it distorts GOD'S Work in humanity and the example of an ordinary human being who under the influence of the Spirit overcame Himself and the world, a perfect (exact) example to all of us, something we all can achieve with the Help of GOD the Same God that helped the Man Jesus our brother in every way.
But your biases you recieved years ago from you trinitarian roots is the problem here it moves him away from us and yourself, by denying his pure humanity. That was Johns Point that was what was behind what John meant by the SPIRIT of Antichrist. It is this denial of Jesus as Purely a flesh and blood Human with no advantage over us at all, no past association , not past Knowledge, Just a human born exactly as we are grow up exactly as we do with the same influences influencing him as we have, God was with him even as a lad because He was the one GOD the Fathers was going to perfect first from all of Mankind the first one to achieve GODS goal he has in Mind for all of US.
But you preexistences destory all of that , you not only rob GOD but deny Jesus' accomplishments as a Pure Human being also. T8 i know you believe what you are saying i believe you to be a honest man , but you are wrong on this one brother and i mean BIG wrong. IMO
Time is short brother you need to get this right while you can. T8 don't you think that if Jesus preexisted in any form he would have related it to all of us (CLEARLY AND SPECIFICALLY) and told us about who he was and what he was doing , trying to force text to say what in fact it does not SPECIFICALLY Say and using words that can and are translated 50 different way as a proof text which is in conflict with other texts which has been brought out here many many times does not produce any sound understanding. Look to the root of your preexistence understanding and then look to the roots of that, and you will go all the way back to the Gnostic's and their teaching of Separation of Jesus from our EXACT IDENTITY Brother. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Adam………When i was in the same Church they taught that we would be fully GOD as GOD is GOD and that Jesus is now fully GOD , That GOD was a Family and that we would have the same power as GOD has. I never agreed with that , but i do believe in being part of GOD'S Family they same way Jesus is and there is a relationship of Father and Sons that implies Family, So the concept of GOD and Family does not bother me at all, but id do not believe we are ever going to achieve the full stature of GOD the FATHER and I Believe no one can or ever will for that matter. But we certainly can be accepted as sons and Daughter of HIS in a Family sense. IMO
L. Ray Smith has a lot of good points and scriptural understanding , and he doesn't think he knows it all and will change if show clearly something different and if it is proved to him. I believe he also believes in the preexistence of Jesus to , not really sure of that though. Last i heard from him he was suffering from advanced stage of cancer, don't Know if he is still alive or not. I will have to check his sit out again. He is a good solid teacher in many thing though, i will give him that.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
I read most of you post here on the second part o preexisting. And nothing has changed. Kerwin, Adam,
and Gene still believe that Christ did not preexist, and Mike, t8 and I do believe He did…..I go by what Scriptures say, and not what any interpretation of a man does.
The main ones
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col. and Rev. both shows us that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. How could God, create through JESUS if He was not there?
He is both the firstborn of all creation, and the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence….. IreneIrene,
None of those scriptures explicitly state Jesus is preexistence and therefore you must reach that conclusion by interpretation. You are a human being and therefore you are going by the interpretation of a human being to arrive at what you believe those scriptures imply.
I hope God has granted you freedom from pain or at least a lessening of it.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,13:25) Irene, None of those scriptures explicitly state Jesus is preexistence and therefore you must reach that conclusion by interpretation. You are a human being and therefore you are going by the interpretation of a human being to arrive at what you believe those scriptures imply.
I hope God has granted you freedom from pain or at least a lessening of it.
Kerwindo you know what is Godly understanding??
Pierre
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